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| Thread: Russia driver ban on transsexuals. |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · «PREV |
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kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted January 10, 2015 08:00 PM |
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@Orzie: one could speculate that the only time Ukraine being a "real country" so to speak was Kievan Rus. but after that, it become absorbed by many other powers, The Grand Duchy of Lithuania being one of them.
so... if we go with tearing each country by what it had prior to modern times... well. depends on the timeline.
but still, even Poland is stiched from land which belonged to other countries. Give back Punsk you grieveling slavs!
so yea.
the matter of Crimea is an entirely different matter. it was a contested territory until someone of the politburo decided to redraw the maps. or something.
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted January 10, 2015 08:04 PM |
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Orzie said:
I have found the issue. The law partially restricts giving driving licences for people who have personality disorders, <150 cm height, and/or transgender feature. This does not mean it restricts it completely - it only gives the right to forfeit giving the driving license to said people, and does not punish anyone responsible for giving it regardless if this person still gave the license or not. Of course this is also a minor discrimination, taking into account that "personality disorder" should have a strong definition, but as usual, it is hyperbolized in the Western mass media to become a crime against humanity.
I've read it. Transgender and transvestites are contraindicated to get the driving licenses. However, laws like these exist for a long time, and both transgenders and transvestites successfully avoid them by showing their sexuality features just after getting the needed documents. Cases of marriages already exist.
So you're saying it's not an outright and total ban, but rather a form of over criminalization and the moment a transgender, or a guy that was caught staring at a couple fornicating through a window (voyeurism), isn't liked by a nearby cop, he will be able to apply this new law and prevent the guy from getting a license.
It's not as worse but it still is pretty bad. I don't think the "WESTERNIZED" *insert dramatic piano accord here* version of the story to be that far off to be honest.
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted January 10, 2015 08:06 PM |
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Putin is definitely authoritarian. He has got a very clever team, which created a very effective image for him in mass media. Putin is not just a name, but a brand in Russia. Even many foreigners like Putin because of his said image, and funny pictures of Putin riding a bear for example are distributed really wide. He has got an image of a strong man with a sense of humour.
When Putin firstly came to his presidential post after the Eltsin's retirement (yeah, it's that president who pissed on the airplane's wheels and was goddamn drunk in the new year tv programme...), he got a country which was in ruins due to the crisis of 90's, which are commonly known as "bandit 90's" in Russia. These were the troublesome times, and I was born in 1991. My parents had to work on 3 jobs each (it's still common for us to have women working as well as men) to get enough money. Many of those bandits later became oligarchs able to influence on the government.
Eltsin ruined the country, surrendering in every negotiation on the international arena, and provided the bandits an ability to operate widely and effectively. Moreover, there were several Chechen wars which also crippled the country. Chechens are a fearsome nation, used to steal and kill and having a really bad temper, uneducated but highly ambitious people. But having them not under control meant a big splash of islamic terrorism all over the place and in the neighbouring regions.
Putin started to learn things directly in the process. We don't have any institutions responsible for educating 1st persons of the country. So that his first years were some kind of experiment with the country on the edge of decay. His decisions then lead the country to a much more suitable state, sometimes maneuvering between the oligarchs, sometimes doing it between other countries.
After that, in 2010s, things became real good for us in comparison to the older times. A level of life rose very much, and it's common for us to have children having hi-tech devices like cell phones, tablets and such in their first years in school. Several years ago it was just impossible and even unthinkable. Older people also agree en masse that the soviet times were worse (still, after the WWII, the country was in a really bad state, with hunger and such - our grandmas still don't tolerate throwing the uneaten food in garbage, it's like a psychological feature which didn't disappear with the rising level of life).
Putin has a very wide support in Russia, and has got it even more just right after the Ukrainian crisis. He is dangerous, and skillful leader who operates by another terms than those usual for the European leaders. With Putin Russia has become much stronger, and this is why his personality is being discussed so much. So that there is no surprise that the drastically increased amount of crap is being loaded onto his head in the recent time.
I can't say we have democracy, but I doubt it exists anywhere since its postulates are broken in the core due to the human nature and mentality. The US is another "good" example of democracy. I am personally more towards socialism or monarchy, but both of these institutions have their own disadvantages which are painful.
Ah, should I mention that in Russia it is possible not only to get job for almost everyone with his head on his shoulders, but also even get a job which you like to do?
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 10, 2015 08:19 PM |
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Edited by artu at 20:40, 10 Jan 2015.
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Well, I remember the Yeltsin period very clearly, I was in my teens. The Soviet Union had just collapsed and you guys had no big capital for business. I remember my father going to Russia as an architect many times, engineers and architects had many business opportunities over there during those days. I also remember the poverty they talk about.
Those are very fertile conditions for such leaders to come into power, we had the same in early 2000's, economic crisis, banks going down, people expecting a saviour... But it is also the worst kind of authoritarian figure because he can present himself as the hope, the solution.
Quote:
I can't say we have democracy, but I doubt it exists anywhere since its postulates are broken in the core due to the human nature and mentality. The US is another "good" example of democracy. I am personally more towards socialism or monarchy, but both of these institutions have their own disadvantages which are painful.
I would take the system in US over the system in Russia, democracy is not flawless but I dont understand why people expect it to be, maybe because of all the advertising... The real problem with US where they act hypocratical is their foreign politics. but if you are a citizen, your democratic rights work pretty okay for you.
I think some people only miss monarchy because they have never lived under a real one (as opposed to symbolical monarchy like the one in UK), there's nothing superior about it. A socialist democracy is the best, I guess. But that's easy when you are some Nordic country with 20 million population, peaceful neighbors, yearly income of thousands of dollars per citizen, not so easy when the conditions are different.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted January 10, 2015 08:38 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 20:42, 10 Jan 2015.
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kayna said:
So you're saying it's not an outright and total ban, but rather a form of over criminalization and the moment a transgender, or a guy that was caught staring at a couple fornicating through a window (voyeurism), isn't liked by a nearby cop, he will be able to apply this new law and prevent the guy from getting a license.
No, it's a regulation that doesn't go into details about the listed disorders and can theoretically be used as a ground for discrimination, provided that the "sexual identity disorders" are some sub-category of the "general disorders" according to some official definition. That's still a solar system away from assuming that the regulation was deliberately introduced to oppress transsexuals, especially provided that the "scandalous" psycho-paragraph is less than 5% of the whole document - and all these articles, videos and such happily assumed just that right away and the "righteous" part of the audience soon fallowed suit without bothering with the details at all.
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kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted January 10, 2015 08:52 PM |
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Hm. Ok. But still, as long as the definition is vague, the possibility to screw over transsexuals is still there.
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Orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted January 10, 2015 09:05 PM |
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Quote:
I think some people only miss monarchy because they have never lived under a real one (as opposed to symbolical monarchy like the one in UK), there's nothing superior about it. A socialist democracy is the best, I guess. But that's easy when you are some Nordic country with 20 million population, peaceful neighbors, yearly income of thousands of dollars per citizen, not so easy when the conditions are different.
The thing is, monarchy prevents oligarchy. When you are a ruler, you care about the country and about its future when your son will inherit your rule. This provides a drastic contrast with the democracy where an elected ruler has no particular reasons to put titanic efforts to the country because it will be inherited by someone else. Also, a monarch would never steal from the cache because he's literally stealing from himself. So that in Russia, a country with a high level of corruption in the government sphere and oligarchs being so powerful that they can influence on politics, it makes some sense. Your children are educated to become monarchs since their very childhood, and presumably they are prepared to do that.
But still, monarchy has numerous disadvantages, with one of the most important ones being the fact that "the nature rests on children" as we say about talented people whose children are not that talented.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted January 10, 2015 09:16 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 21:17, 10 Jan 2015.
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Quote:
Hm. Ok. But still, as long as the definition is vague, the possibility to screw over transsexuals is still there.
Potentially yes. But consider this: You have a generic naming of some condition, for example "Disorders of personality and behaviour" (picking this one randomly - it's in the document but I don't know if it is related to these "sexual identity disorders") which includes, say, 10-20-50-1000 specific conditions as per some official categorization and one of them is related to transsexuals. Why would you assume without a shadow of doubt that the whole thing is a satanic plan, although disguised, to restrict the rights of transsexuals and publicize it as a 100% certain fact? That's where the problem lies. In the end it might indeed turn out that Darth Putin and his evil team have designed this to oppress sexual minorities but the point is that nobody cares, Russia is already condemned once again by the free democratic world and all the good citizens of the West feel satisfied with their high moral standards and open minds.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 10, 2015 09:22 PM |
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@orzie
A monarch is more corruptable than an elected politician because it is much more harder for a monarch to fall from power (it happens though), the oligarchs can influence or bribe a monarch just like they can do it with an elected politician. The advantage of democracy is that you have to keep at least some of the people at a minimum level of satisfaction with your authority or they zap you. Yes, there are many flaws and yes the public can be manipulated to a certain degree but a monarch still has to care much less about these things.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted January 10, 2015 10:27 PM |
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Everything and everyone evolves, and so does evil. Evil is rarely absolute in this day and age, at least not within our rich countries ; they tend to stretch their bullsnow on a longer period of time because it has a higher rate of success. Just like Palestine, instead of bombing the crap out of them and settle in, Jews over there are taking their sweet time, building walls, bridges over Palestinian slums, etc, for 75 years.
If I was a transsexual and the government said to me "Oh hey we passed a very vague law that includes your kind of "mental disease" on the long list of people we will prevent from driving, but don't worry about it, it's all currently vague and unclear", I would still take it like it's going to happen 100 % sure. If they didn't want to include transsexuals on this very long list, all they had to do is state it in their document! But they didn't.
So while the WESTERNIZED MEDIA ( dun dun dun ) did exaggerate a bit, maybe it's not an exaggeration. Maybe they're just ahead of the curve.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted January 11, 2015 07:35 AM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 07:50, 11 Jan 2015.
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Except that it's awfully convenient to assume the evil masterplan, ignoring the fact that the remaining 80%, 90% or whatever their number is of the disorders in the given group are there, or just pretending that their purpose is to cover the real intention, which is to reduce the rights of transsexuals. Laws and regulations with generic wording are being passed all around the world, including in the liberal democracies. Seriously, if this happened in a Western country and there was no Ukraine-like event, many people would have reacted with "don't bother me with conspiracy theories". But: 1. Russia -> 2. Russia is evil by default -> 3. So there is no way it can be anything else. Chances are, it may have remained completely unspotted.
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kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted January 11, 2015 03:29 PM |
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Hm. Kind of a word twist on the word "convenient" there. My point of view is trying to understand the transsexual guy in Russia, not pass Russia as the evil country right away because I'm some sort of mainstream media. I am me and they are they. I don't think it would be "convenient" for the transsexual in Russia to assume they're gonna get the shaft in the future, it's more like assuming the worse to be prepared for it. Nothing "convenient" at all there.
You are right, vague laws are passed everywhere, the people above us are such control freaks that they seek control ( vague laws ) sometimes without even knowing what they're gonna do with it. They just know the formula to keep as many doors possible ( one again, vague laws that remains vague as long as we don't have a specific example to bring to court, and let's not forget the motto of our scared lawyers "it's always better to solve things off court!" ) and apply it.
But all your truthful words aside, my point remains : They didn't want to write a few sentences to exclude silly "reasons" for losing a driver permit and include transsexuals among them. But if you want to say it's more a matter of who got the spotlight because every country has flaws, yeah, sure, I agree with that too. *shrug*
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted January 11, 2015 04:23 PM |
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Convenient from propaganda point of view. I'm talking about the way this issue was served to the public, not about your posts. If there is indeed some official list which the Russian authorities use for the purposes of applying the regulations - be it their own or "borrowed" from the World Health Organization - with a sub-category "sexual identity disorders" which is part of a major category that is included in the document, then the decree requires fine-tuning to remove potential discriminative interpretation. Nobody argues about that. But have a look at the related articles - their titles and their content don't say that the decree is vague and may potentially and eventually be used to reduce the civil liberties of a certain minority, they just throw a verdict at your face. "Russia bans" while actually Russia hasn't banned anything. See the nuance? In times without so much tension on the international stage such articles would indicate a severe lack of journalistic professionalism, now they just indicate advertised bias and prejudices, i.e. propaganda.
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kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted January 11, 2015 05:02 PM |
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Oh I see the nuance. But I still don't trust them. Think about it ; A bunch of law makers of a huge country that doesn't bother defining the long list of "mental illnesses" on their document. You think it was oversight? A mistake? It wasn't. People paid 150 000 $ a year aren't allowed mistakes, especially when many of them sits together at a table to get their snow together.
I see only 2 possible reasons :
A) They will indeed ban transsexuals from driving in the future or
B) They will not do so, turning this into some sort of weird exercise to earn trust, like an animal trainer that teaches his dog a trick. Considering the mentality of Russians, I believe A is at risk of happening, considering the general view there on the LGBT community. And if you wish to point your finger elsewhere, let's say, the USA's bible belt, and talk about their view on LGBT there, yes, I know.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted January 12, 2015 07:38 AM |
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You don't have to believe them, it's enough to bear in mind all possibilities - or at least accept that it's not just one - instead of soaking the one that's been served by the "free media" in a manipulative manner.
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orzie
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted January 12, 2015 08:23 AM |
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Edited by orzie at 08:24, 12 Jan 2015.
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They 'bothered' defining them - they provided a link to a somewhat international classification. And yeah, that classification really mentions those disorders as disorders, without additional notes or corrections.
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