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| Thread: Heroes series - back to the drawing board? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV |
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 05, 2015 12:12 PM |
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Edited by fred79 at 12:16, 05 Oct 2015.
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i posted about this before, and had forgotten.
i didn't even read it all the way through again, so if any of it looks like it was typed out of delirium from lack of sleep, please forgive me. 
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 05, 2015 12:50 PM |
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Kayna said:
TDL said:
games such as Heroes are a dying breed.
Yes. Younger people are generally not interested in slow arse games like HoMM. They want action, and they want it fast.
That is not entirely true. I have young people in my classes (age 16-18) who play Heroes 3.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted October 05, 2015 12:58 PM |
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Almost all the people I know IRL, and not even necessarily gamers, play h3.
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted October 05, 2015 04:14 PM |
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Yes. But I was generally speaking. And I highly doubt the H3 player count reach as high as Dota 2.
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Herry
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
100% Devil
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posted October 05, 2015 04:34 PM |
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I don't see the point in comparing HoMM 3 to Dota 2. First of all, they are a decade and a few years apart, second, people nowadays prefer Real-time action instead of Turn-based. I play both, and they are drastically different, to the point where it doesn't make sense to compare them. Especially when it comes to the player count. Also, to be fair, it's not fair comparing them. If Heroes 3 was made today, in the same style it was, but with the available resources today I bet it'd be close to a blockbuster.
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TDL
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
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posted October 05, 2015 04:39 PM |
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In spite of being a highly-played and well-known game, it is one of the few examples that made enough impact since its release to become a staple in the gaming culture. Other than that, games like Heroes are few and far between, and they do not really account for much of the gaming community.
Such games are a dying breed, and I will reiterate that, because the majority of gamers are oriented towards the growing popular genres such as MOBAs, games with a distinctive multiplayer online component featuring fast-paced combat and a compelling reason to keep replaying it (such as Destiny).
Unfortunately, Heroes account for a niche of games where the strategy bridges into role-play, allowing people to craft their own little adventure. It is in no way a massively-multiplayer game, hence your little adventure is mostly restricted to yourself. And while some enjoy it, the majority could not care less.
And herein lies the problem which i mentioned before: budgeting. Without a substantial budget, a game in 2015 that is inferior to its peers will not be successful, especially given the expectation surrounding it from its fanbase.
As a result, games like Disciples, age of wonders, heroes, King's bounty are dying... You will always have the old games to rely on, but the new ones will be so vastly inferior that they will be released few and far between, if ever, and it will most likely involve substantial reduction in its content, such as we've witnessed now.
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Brukernavn
Hero of Order
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posted October 07, 2015 01:26 AM |
bonus applied by alcibiades on 07 Oct 2015. |
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TDL said:
As a result, games like Disciples, age of wonders, heroes, King's bounty are dying... You will always have the old games to rely on, but the new ones will be so vastly inferior that they will be released few and far between, if ever, and it will most likely involve substantial reduction in its content, such as we've witnessed now.
Well, looking at the big studios alone that might be true, but I'm actually much more optimistic for this genre than I was a few years ago. The gaming industry is not what it once was. It has grown to be a giant among entertainment industries. In 2014 the video game revenue was estimated to be $81.5 Billion. That's twice as much as the global film industry the previous year. True, the three big moneymakers are online games, console and mobile gaming, but PC still holds a sizeable share.
The good thing about TBS games controlled with "point and click", is that they are quite suited for touch interfaces. Ubisoft even released the H3 HD remake for mobile. The two games with highest revenue on iOS, and among the most popular, are Clash of Clans and Game of War - Fire Age. They both contain the three layered elements from Heroes: World map, cities and battles. They contain might, magic, heroes, fantasy, strategy, RPG elements etc. You have many other games that are a strategy-RPG mix with kingdom building, exploration and resource management. I'm not saying these can be compared to Heroes, but it shows that the basic things we love about Heroes, a large part of the population also loves. It's really not such a niche when you look at the gaming industry as a whole.
However, I'm not planning to play a future Heroes game on a mobile device myself. I also see a lot of positive things for the PC market. Most notably crowd funding and small studios.
One example of a small studio is Stardock. They made Elemental: War of Magic in 2010 in close collaboration with those who pre-ordered. It has been described as a mix between Civ and Heroes. The final result suffered many of the same things as H7: bugs, poor UI, weak core gameplay and lack of documentation. It failed miserably and the company had to lay off many people because of it. They decided to remake the whole game with Elemental: Fallen Enchantress, and provided a free copy to all who pre-ordered War of Magic to make amends (picture Ubisoft doing something like that). Fallen Enchantress received positive reviews and was followed by a stand-alone expansion
Fallen Enchantress: Legendary Heroes, which received even better reviews.
One example of crowd funding is Battle Worlds: Kronos, a tactical TBS based on the Battle Isle series. It was funded through kickstarter. Within two days they had to set a stretch goal, and within a week the project was a go. The good thing about kickstarter is that the backers are involved from the very beginning and can influence (most of) the important decisions. They can get access to several alpha and beta versions, so bugs can be fixed as they work instead of getting an overwhelming amount at the last stage. Basically, this was the type of developement that was advertised with the SC. With crowd funding you on the one hand risk getting an unfinished product in the end, although most developers cannot afford such a label early on and will go the extra mile. On the other hand when you buy a modern game from a major strudio today you are most likely getting an unfinished product anyway.
The best thing for the Heroes series would of course be a publisher which is willing to invest in a Heroes game, and a developer with an understanding and a vision for the game. I don't think that's likely to happen. The problem with Ubisoft is that they want to introduce new players to the game without understanding what made the previous games popular in the first place. So they make decisions like investing half the budget in graphics. I don't mind good graphics, but what makes H3 visually appealing is not the high quality graphics. Rather it's the art design and the coherent style and UI. Ubisoft also wants to add new features, which often don't work too well, while removing others that worked very well with seemingly no good reason. This forum is full of descriptions of Ubi-mistakes so I don't have to list any more. My point was that the most realistic path to a good heroes game again is through a step-wise process, and not an all-in-one game as they tried with H7.
The first step would build the foundation. Focusing on the most important aspects: core mechanics, AI, art style, stability and performance. It wouldn't have the best graphics, but you would play it because it plays well and is a lot of fun. In such a case there would most likely be a lack of content, which could be provided through future expansions - as is a tradition with Heroes games. After a few expansions you have a comprehensive game with everything needed for a Heroes game. Then you make a new game which is basically the same but with updated graphics and perhaps some other minor improvements. Then you would have another truly great Heroes game. That's the most likely way we can get there in my opinion. H7 will at best become an OK game.
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3lion
Known Hero
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posted October 07, 2015 05:03 PM |
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Edited by 3lion at 17:06, 07 Oct 2015.
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Brukernavn said:
The best thing for the Heroes series would of course be a publisher which is willing to invest in a Heroes game
Speaking of a publisher it's a matter of his final goal. Whether he wants to rise some money, or he wants to make popular game and rise some intangible assets like reputation.
I believe that it is really really stupid idea to try earn any money by selling PC game like Heroes. Yeah, there are a lot of TBS games, and some of them really was appreciated by gamers and critics, but for me it's kinda niche or even indie game genre (I mean PC, not mobile).. Therefore instead of earning money publisher should earn trust and confidence from gamers who will play this game. And if he wants money, he probably should sell some side products, like merchandise or mobile spin-off games based on this acclaimed franchise. In this case publisher can allow himself to delay the game release as long as he wish (since he don't have to rush this game for holidays) and polish it until it shines as a helluva diamond. As a result everybody happy. We, heroes nerds, are happy cuz we finally get our game. Casual gamers are happy too, cuz they are playing some mobile stuff based on a very popular game, and they feel participial to something big and important and can kill some time during fly or class. Publisher is happy too, cuz he has both reputation from nerds and lots of dough from casuals.
Just saying..
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted October 07, 2015 05:08 PM |
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Hello guys,
It's been some time since I last posted here. When it comes to H7 judging by the comments things look grim. Not that I'm surprised. Maybe it's not very fan-like but I lost interest in this game a while back. Probably somewhere before the first beta release. Being pesimistic as I am I knew what was coming...
I tried the game, belive me. Don't ask how, there are ways, and I'm a type of guy who tries things before he buys them (mostly), and there's no problem for me to buy a game even if I originally played it in a "different way". A tactic I don't use very often but it was a no-brainer in this case. I tried H7 mostly to check if it will even work on my laptop, and unfortunately things don't look good. It makes me wonder how such an ugly and empty game does not even work properly. The color palette used for this game is just mortifing. For a franchise that represents a bit of fairy-tale like aproach to fantasy this seems out of place. Even the "darker" H6 had more color. Nevertheless, I've never seen such bad optimalization. For a moment I even thought that those atrociuos cutscene animations were "motionless" because of my machine or some bug. My laptop might not be a super rig, but I don't understand how a game like Age of Wonders III works so well, whereas this cra*fest does not...
The before-mentioned AoW III showed me that you can make a great TBS game, that is faithful to its roots while being an incredible game at the same time. Don't give me that "TBS are games of old" cra*, cause you can make a great/decent TBS game and it will still find it's buyers, like AoW III, Endless Legend (that's a 4X though ), Warlock MotA or Elemental FE... you simply need the right attitude, cause we're not even talking about some high-end budget.
You can't even call this a review cause I didn't play H7 much. I've played it for about 1 hour and it was enough. This might seem not very objective, but I only needed it to confim some things. Confirmation of something I knew from the start: this game is plain bad. No, saying something like "it's a diamond in a rough and only needs some patching, give it a chance" will not work here, cause we already had H6. They've had their chances with a game that was relased in a bad state and had to be repaired for over a year, and the effect still wasn't that satisfing. I've said it before and I say it again: If Ubi will make the same thing with H7 (which was to be expected for quite some time now) I will officially stop supporting this franchise, as long as it's in the hands of Ubisoft. Oh, how I wanted to back down on these words, belive me...
It's my opinion on a game that seems to be the final nail to the coffin for the franchise. Sales seem to be weak so a corporation like Ubisoft will probaly discard it (well it probably depends on how much money they've already invested in it). I really hope so. Many of you say that Heroes 5 was the greatest game in the franchise. I'm not one of them (though I do think the game was good, thanks too Nival, the only good thing that this franchise got in Ubi-era, just not the best in the franchsie), and what's more I still hold true to my statement that the purchase of the rights by Ubisoft was the worst thing to happen for this franchise (something I said before H5 was released so it lingered for quite a while ). I'm not too keen on the "going back to H5 formula" way if it means that Ubisoft will still "defile" this franchise ... rather I would want for Ubisoft to just discard the rights to this franchise. Maybe it will be picked by some dedicated guys or even JvC and be reincarnated in a Kickstarter project? One can only hope...
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yogi
Promising
Famous Hero
of picnics
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posted October 10, 2015 12:07 PM |
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phenomenal post Brukernavn 
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icefield
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 13, 2015 10:18 PM |
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Coming back after a while -
the game is out and the rage with it. I didn't buy the game - but might later, if I get some playing time and a decent comp.
Reading through the threads, it's a deja vu from HoMM5 release. You do remember that H5 was unplayable initially due to crashes, virtually nobody liked the graphics or anything in Ashan, AI was dumb, the new skill system was considered a disaster? It took years until TotE, which is now termed as best of the series by many. People realized that H5 core gameplay is different from H3, not necessarily worse. Yet the actual gameplay changes between H5 vanilla and TotE are actually minor. There was bug fixes, balancing, redesign of some abilities, loads of extra content. (And ToTE is not even finished, the patching was cut off.)
Apparently, H5 had a gameplay core that could shine only after the surface (bugs, imbalance, bad AI) was polished long enough. And I remember that Nival had to step back from some of their earlier design decisions.
Some fans, including me, thought that the H5 (and H6) release mistakes should not happen again. But it's a plain fact that publishers force publication of a video game in early beta stage, as soon as all assets are in place. For HoMM, that has been the case from H4 to H7 now, and will happen again if the series continues.
Now imagine that H7 also can shine if Ubi decides to keep Limbic's team in place for a reasonable time span. The real question is, which parts are actually worth expanding on, and where are obstacles for interesting and varied gameplay that can be removed?
I didn't play yet, so this would be something to hear from people that actually did.
The patching process, if continued, will certainly remove bugs, add balance, improve the AI to some extent. There will definitely be more content, but where should it be added? What kind of game can this prototype eventually become?
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farfromrefuge
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 13, 2015 11:12 PM |
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icefield said:
Coming back after a while -
the game is out and the rage with it. I didn't buy the game - but might later, if I get some playing time and a decent comp.
Reading through the threads, it's a deja vu from HoMM5 release. You do remember that H5 was unplayable initially due to crashes, virtually nobody liked the graphics or anything in Ashan, AI was dumb, the new skill system was considered a disaster? It took years until TotE, which is now termed as best of the series by many. People realized that H5 core gameplay is different from H3, not necessarily worse. Yet the actual gameplay changes between H5 vanilla and TotE are actually minor. There was bug fixes, balancing, redesign of some abilities, loads of extra content. (And ToTE is not even finished, the patching was cut off.)
Apparently, H5 had a gameplay core that could shine only after the surface (bugs, imbalance, bad AI) was polished long enough. And I remember that Nival had to step back from some of their earlier design decisions.
Some fans, including me, thought that the H5 (and H6) release mistakes should not happen again. But it's a plain fact that publishers force publication of a video game in early beta stage, as soon as all assets are in place. For HoMM, that has been the case from H4 to H7 now, and will happen again if the series continues.
Now imagine that H7 also can shine if Ubi decides to keep Limbic's team in place for a reasonable time span. The real question is, which parts are actually worth expanding on, and where are obstacles for interesting and varied gameplay that can be removed?
I didn't play yet, so this would be something to hear from people that actually did.
The patching process, if continued, will certainly remove bugs, add balance, improve the AI to some extent. There will definitely be more content, but where should it be added? What kind of game can this prototype eventually become?
I don't think that the problem is in bugs alone. The problem is that the core features you are talking about are unfinished. For example, flanking is OK, I guess, but it requires some additional mechanisms to be enjoyable and not OP, for example - attacks of opportunity. Yet HoMM just uses pure flanking, which makes 1x1 battles look ridiculous, like turn-based tango across the battlefield.
Second problem is the AI. It is in need of a complete rewrite, but that is actually a field that is being worked on. Nival's AI at the release was not that good too, but that was because Ubi's casual community was getting demolished by it even on Normal and they practically banned any additional development, even after forcing Nival to make a Rectuit level of difficulty. Any additional development of AI was done in secret and covered up by other changes.
Third major problem is design. And not graphical, but map design. Nival had a right idea, making the game full of stuff to find - free resources, bonus objects etc. Yet HoMM VII uses Age of Wonders 2 approach, where you can pick up mostly two objects a day, because they are quite few and far between, while the movement points per hero are ridiculously low.
Forth problem is degeneration. HoMM V (speaking of ToE, of course) was a pinnacle of the system, introducing intersecting skill-wheel, alt-grades and ATB system. Instead of continuing with the trend, continuing to explore the possibilities there, first Black Hole and then Limbic pushed it back to HoMM III age, which feels dated and much less dynamic.
So my problem with game lies in its core features. Once the bugs are done for, the game should become enjoyable, yet it still won't be that great. HoMM IV for sure, but not even close to HoMM II, III or V:TotE, unless the expansions are extremely massive and change core features of the gameplay. Unfortunately, I can not remember any game except for Civilization that ever did this sort of stuff.
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icefield
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 13, 2015 11:50 PM |
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I guess Nival didn't have as much of an idea initially - they threw lots of stuff together and hoped that it would somehow become a game. It didn't, initially. But it worked out in the end, with increased discipline on the devs' side.
Maybe that's what Limbic should do now - throw in content and balance later from feedback. It's all beta, anyway. H6 apparently was thoughtfully designed around a specific idea, and didn't fly.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 14, 2015 01:42 PM |
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Caravans, alternate upgrades, memory mentor and other things that were not implemented from the beginning were actually proposed in the forums. It is likely that nival was keeping an eye for improvement suggestions even if they did not have a public presence.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 14, 2015 01:56 PM |
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I'm always near throwing a fit when suddenly HoMM 4 comes into the equation. Back to the drawing board, that is, what H4 did, and until this day it's the only Heroes game that offers Heroes on the BF, alternative builds*, faction-specific spell schools and a couple of other things, like coming up with Caravans and so on.
It's an absolutely unique experience that no H3 or H5 clone will ever be able to replace - whether you like the gameplay or not. Which is the main difference. Neither H6 nor H7 can ever be better than H4, because they simply don't compete with H4. You could play EVERY Heroes game - and still H4 would offer something entirely different and thereby a reason to still play it.
This won't change with H7, no matter what they do with it in the future.
The way it is, H7 competes with H5 (and with H6 for those who had fun with H6).
* The H7 "alternative build" is more like a gimmick than having actual importance.
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farfromrefuge
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 14, 2015 03:36 PM |
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Elvin said:
Caravans, alternate upgrades, memory mentor and other things that were not implemented from the beginning were actually proposed in the forums. It is likely that nival was keeping an eye for improvement suggestions even if they did not have a public presence.
They had quite big public presence in Russian community, so there is that.
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PandaTar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
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posted October 14, 2015 03:51 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
I'm always near throwing a fit when suddenly HoMM 4 comes into the equation. Back to the drawing board, that is, what H4 did, and until this day it's the only Heroes game that offers Heroes on the BF, alternative builds*, faction-specific spell schools and a couple of other things, like coming up with Caravans and so on.
It's an absolutely unique experience that no H3 or H5 clone will ever be able to replace - whether you like the gameplay or not. Which is the main difference. Neither H6 nor H7 can ever be better than H4, because they simply don't compete with H4. You could play EVERY Heroes game - and still H4 would offer something entirely different and thereby a reason to still play it.
This won't change with H7, no matter what they do with it in the future.
The way it is, H7 competes with H5 (and with H6 for those who had fun with H6).
* The H7 "alternative build" is more like a gimmick than having actual importance.
Pretty much my feelings towards that.
When H5 was launched, even considering all those high numbers of factions, upgrades and whatnot, I felt much more let down due the fact that some of the features I most enjoyed were removed, instead of polished. I felt like a step back (towards H3) and the starting of predicable changes which didn't concern me, but were the tendency of 3D, which as far as I could see, was for the sake of simply doing so.
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"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS – Portal 2
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