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Heroes Community > Heroes 4 - Lands of Axeoth > Thread: Outline of the Greatest and Most Terrible Mod Ever
Thread: Outline of the Greatest and Most Terrible Mod Ever
NimoStar
NimoStar


Promising
Known Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted June 12, 2016 01:59 PM

Outline of the Greatest and Most Terrible Mod Ever

Notes for H4 Mod (or THE ALTERNATE Heroes 5)
(This is theory/fantasy. It is unlikely I will make such a mod in full. I will try to make some features and publish them as I go. But maybe someone could help with the rest...)

IMPLEMENTED- Randomized maps with object brushes

IMPLEMENTED- Hero skills shoudn't be "hardcoded" in the editor according to their classes (I found a workaround for this already)

- Special appearances of hero models shoudn't be "hardcoded" into portraits/identities

- There should be Pirate hero models (male and female) and a special Dark Witch hero model

- ALL heroes skills should be able to be advanced separately (including "subskills"). The H4 progression system is an incredibly rigid straightjacket.
- If this is hard to implement with the current system, make all heroes start with a "placeholder" level in each of the main skills (without abilities) that lets them develop the associated ones
- There should be more non-magical skills (at least as many as magical ones and probably more)
- Make Herbalism, Meditation, etc. (all exactly the same for different magic types) unique and inspired, and/or fuse them all into something alike to Mysticism, Wisdom or Power.
- Skills such as Charm, Resurrection and Necromancy should not necessarily be require magic to be learned or applied (but the probabilities of learning it may vary and be mutual)
- Skills such as Sorcery could be learned after learning any magic type.
---- SOME of these may be possible as "default heroes" with notepad editing (for example, high Meditation with no or very low nature magic)
- Barbarism or something alike should be a skill, or even a skillset with "subskills" that of course woudn't need a "main one". For example the four "barbarian" skills could be: Swarming (Increases quantities and boosts allies), Terrorizing (Diminishes and weakens enemies), Pillaging (Steals resources, rewards combat victories and destroys buildings), and Sieging (Similar to H3, would increase your proficiency against cities and fortifications, which would now include adventure map gates and "unupgraded" cities by giving you "spells" and global bonuses in such battles; and increasing your "blockade area" on the adventure map)
- Have Tactics and Barbarian skills have "Spells" that don't count magic resistances or cost mana. For example, a Barbarian could use his turn to "Intimidate" the opposing army. This would give -1 defense to all opposing creatures and heroes for the combat. A general could use his turn to "Organize" his army, giving them all +1 speed for the duration of the combat... and so on.
In the same way, archers could have "shot abilities" such as Double Shot or Divided Shooting; Meleers could have weapon plays. Learning these could be like learning spells (or could be automatic) but in any case would require a certain level of the skill. Even Nobility and Scouting skills could have "spells", specially ones focused on the adventure map (and for example be limited to one per turn, like combat "spells" are limited at one per combat turn)
At the same time, diminish static bonuses for the skills.
These changes would make Might playing a lot less dull and repetitive, and much more tactical like spellcasting is, with even added macro strategy.

- Quit it with the "barbarians are immune to charm and diplomacy". No they aren't. Also rearrage Charm and Diplomacy. They mostly suck (good only for diminishing the enemies's numbers)

- Add spells like Fire Wall and Force Shield that use the map. They could put in Quicksand but not that?
- Demon-summoning spells can be put on scrolls, parchments, and have to be taught; they aren't "full auto". They require Demonology and Summoning (which are independent skills from their ex-magics now). Demonary makes hero have all demon-summoning spells of their possible level if they have either relevant dark OR nature magic. For example, a hero with advanced summoning and no demonology, or viceversa, could use lvl2 demon summoning spells from the Demonary.
-- Add "Summon Heretic", "Summon Succubi", "Summon Efreet", "Summon Pit Lord", and "Summon Nightmare" spells.}
-- Add "Raise Zombie", "Raise Mummy" (Order) and "Raise Skeleton Dragon" spells
-- Raise Skeletons should be able to be used on skeletons, raise ghosts on ghosts, and so on. Also all undead should be valid targets to "animate dead" since that's precisely what they are. Balance HP quantity if this would make it OP (doubtful)

- Special classes should be unique and with useful bonuses
- Special classes should take into account subskills as different ones. For example, a hero with Seamanship, Stealth and Combat as main skills should be able to become a pirate.
- Special classes could make the hero model change; a woman with both Light and Dark magic skills (Dark Priest) could use Alita Eventide model (specially if she started as a priest); A mage with both order and death magic could use Mysterio's model, an Archmage could use Bohb's model, a sorcerer+mage should use Kozuss model, etc. (even a sorcerer with nobility could use Spazz's model, an archer with nature magic could use Erutan's model, and so on) If we look at the editor's and game's code, it would seem as this was intended on the first expansion because they are labeled as such; however the fuctionality seems to have been decided against, probably to keep them "unique" (cuak as if someone cared).

- Map features should be unique and all have a trigger section. It cannot just be that there are like four objects that just give "+1 luck" or "double your spell points" which is just a waste of both effects and graphics (there are many more of the same if you count all slight variations, like "may give +1 morale and/or +1 luck", and even that would be inspired compared to most).
- For example, one could follow the WoG footsteps (but a lot less wacky) by having objects have a secondary function; for example one could spend the day on the clover field to try to find a Four Leaf Clover or Leprechauns (join or fight); One could choose to try to find coins on the Magic Well or Fountain of Fortune; one could try to change your hero's alignement at a Temple, and so on... even "depleted" quests could have functions, like trying to enter an abandoned Hideout for sanctuary for one day or learning Stealth, diving into the deserted Ruins to find artifacts, etc. These of course should not be taken lightly but carefully balanced to have slight effects.

- Town portal should be usable in combat but very expensive (you can retreat and keep all the heroes for free anyways...)

- Creatures being able to equip one artifact, but only if it's a stack of one (individual)

- Creatures should be able to drink potions, but need 1 per creature in the stack

- Creatures should be able to throw vials

COMBAT:
If not too late for the engine, try to change combat matrix back to hexagons. Also, as for graphics, make movement shadow grey and not blue, and the matrix indicator less conspicuous (50% transparency). Adventure map of hexagons would be nice too, but not even the graphics are prepared (everything is dull squares) so that should be a new game entirely...

SEA:
- Floating creatures (Evil Eyes, Air Elementals, Genie, Efreet, etc.) and water elementals should not need a ship to move in sea when neutral or you place them there on the editor. Possibly remove their need for a ship entirely on some or all those creatures.
-- TODO: Test if your mermaids or sea monster need a ship. --- GOD, it's so dumb that they do need a ship if they start on land OR sea. If they made it so that they could go on sea alone if neutral, why the hell did they not program for that if owned? WHY would a sea monster need a boat? Also, if you take one of these boatless creatures, even being sea creatures, you lose all movement for "embarking" them...
- Modify Stealth so it works on sea and on garrisons. At the very least, if they have to see the cities and ships don't let them see the people on it! Gosh.
- "Digging holes" on the sea is stupid. Ok, you could search for treasure at the sea bottom... but not leave a hole on the surface! It just breaks all sense of immersion (get the pun?)

___________________________________________________________________________________________

Just Creatures:
- Medusas should have turn into stone as a spell (loses turn but increases defense drastically). Also see graphics.


- Towns and Alignements: (see also graphics section)

-- All dwellings repopulate PER WEEK. Recruiting every day is exhausting.
-- Towns should be able to build BOTH dwellings for all levels, but the second dwelling built will cost double.
-- Towns shoudn't have de facto two "level one" creatures. The second of them should be stronger and lower in numbers; however they have no "double cost" penalty.
-- Devil should not spawn "ice demons". Devils are fire-themed. They should spawn imps and/or efreets.
-- Switch Demon Spawn and Nightmare. Demon Spawn is Chaos; Nightmare is Death (and their respective towns). As town images aren't "integrated", changing the dwellings should be relatively easy (in comparison to H3).
-- overhaul Order theme; they have desert stuff all golden and watery like Halflings, Nagas, Genies and Gold Golems and even they Magi, and call their native home "snow"... either change to Sand/desert theme/homeland like H5 or make things snow-looking. First option is easier. Even their Titans don't look snowlike (not to mention the "dragon golem")

-- LONG TERM: If one would want, it should not be all too hard to separate each existing town into two (graphically not too hard either, because of the town screen factor)

--- Academy could be separated into two...

- a Russian/mostly Western-looking snow "Tower" like the H3 one. Home Terrain are Snow, Ice and Ice River
It has Order/Death and Life magic.
gremlins*[1], dwarves[2], gargoyles[3A], Stone Golems*[3B], Wizards**[4A], Goblin Knight [4B], titans[5A], sorceress[5B]
*re-create Gremlin and Stone Golem sprites with other Heroes 3D models

- and an Eastern Arab Muslim Desert looking "Academy". Home terrains are Sand (desert) and Sand (Beach)
It has Order/Chaos and Life magic.
Halflings[1], Nomads[2], Gold Golems[3A], Alchemists**[3B], Naga[4A], Mummy*[4B], Genie*[5A] and Dragon Golem[5B]
**Mages Should be recolored and renamed "Alchemist", and their spells altered (give some of the current to the new Tower Wizards, or to the new Liches). Tower Wizards could get their sprite from some other 3D wizard (like the ones on BFME2)
*Mummy is Order-aligned yet undead. Obviously because of its new place power it up, and make a bit bigger. It can cast the "plague" spell with a moderate strenght based on numbers, but beware your own units too!
*Make bigger and more menacing the Genie too (both gamewise and graphically) as it will be max level.

--- Re-split Death and Chaos towns into Necropolis (death, duh), Inferno [mixed death/chaos], and "Dungeon" (you can keep it as Asylum) [Chaos]. This makes two towns into three and with the neutral creatures should be easy enough to fill it.

Necropolis: Home terrains are Dirt(clear, not mossy), Volcanic (cold), and Cursed Ground
Skeleton[1], Zombie[2], Ghost[3A], Giant Spider*[3B], Vampire[4A], Lich[4B], Bone Dragon[5A], Death Knight[5B]
*Make Giant Spider sprite with H6/H7 3D graphics, or use BFME2 ROTWK spiders (esp. mounted ones)
Giant spiders would have 50% chance of poison attack but only on melee (they are archers) and 50% of causing slow at a distance. They are not undead but don't get morale penalty by them.
Lich is an archer with an attack that deals Death magic damage on area. As a turn-consuming ability, would be able to cast once per combat a random reanimation spell over all-dead stacks (Animate Dead, Death Call, raise skeleton, the new Raise Zombie, raise ghost, raise vampire, except for the new Rise Skeleton Dragon and the order-aligned new Raise Mummy). If this isn't possible, give it a spellbook, Raise Zombie, Raise Ghost, and Disrupting Ray. Not much MP, two reanims or three rays.

Inferno: Home Terrains are Volcanic (Hot) and Scorched Earth
Its hard to do, because they didn't include many creatures from it. But even it would be better to leave them as neutral/campaign only, than to hammer and split them into other towns that don't fit with it.
Would it be possible to mod Inferno creatures and their portraits so that they could be considered BOTH Chaos and Death gamewise?
Anyways, their bonus buildings would roughly be the ones from H3 adapted to H4 mechanics (for example, "Order of Fire" and "Brimstone Stormclouds" instead of "increasing spell power +X", put "increase spell effect XX%", both during sieges and teach such skill). Also give Altar of Sacrifice for both creatures and artifacts.
Graphically wise, Inferno could be oriental-based (japanese and chinese) like it was albeit discreetly on H3
Imp[1], Heretic*[2], Cerberus[3A], Succubi*[3B], Efreet[4A], Pit Lord*[4B], Devil[5A], Nightmare[5B]
* Marked creature sprites would have to be recreated from 3D models. There are good models on both H5 and Warhammer(incl.WH40K)-inspired 3D games.
Heretic would be low-level spellcaster; its default (cast) attack is Sparks, which he could use three times without imp feeding. If possible also give him Berserk (barbarian kind) with doing this.
Succubi would work like Mermaids but with ranged attack, and hypnosis depends on hitpoints now (like old "turn into stone" of H4 medusas, or gorgon Stone Gaze).
Pit lord would be high-level spellcaster with both death and chaos spells, but little MP.
Devil, as discussed before, would be summoner with spellbook.
Imps are designed so they can replenish the MP of spellcasters. Devil itself can summon them.

Asylum (as "dungeon"): Home terrains are Subterranean (Dirt and Rock), plus a new and darker subterranean (see Graphics)
Troglodyte[1], Orc[2], Evil Eye[3A], Medusa[3B], Minotaur[4A], Venom Spawn[4B], Black Dragon[5A], Hydra[5B]
(this one was easy. Even a/b color and styles fit. 3 of 8 were changed, leaving 5 of the original)


--- Preserve could similarly be split:

Rampart (actually mix of preserve, fortress and rampart themes):
Home terrains are Swamp (shallow), Swamp (deep) and Water River
When making new buildings, make them vietnam-based, and with wood and mould.
Special buildings include Explorer's Den (Teaches Pathfinding), Hunter's Gathering (Teaches and upgrades Archery in exchange for creatures, and gives a bonus to visiting heroes), Adventurer's Inn (Increases movement of heroes over land, and restores health to visitors), Earth's Temple (teaches certain spells to all adventure map heroes instantly in exchange for resources), and Glyphs of Protection (increases defense of garrison during siege)
Duende(?)*[1], Wolf[2], Elf[3A], Satyr**[3B], Ent*[4A], Waspwort[4B], Gargantuan*[5A], Mantis[5B]
*Duende replaces Leprechaun on the line-up because the latter doesn't fit. Duendes have bonuses on attack and defense vs other level 1 and 2 creatures (opposite to Halflings). Find 3D duende model to make sprite. It's not easy because they aren't represented in anglo culture. A "Peque" model would be nice.
(I love four leaf clovers and clovers in general but as a discreete phenomenon, not a sparky game-theme. They went so overboard with the "gay irishman" concept here that they exterminated clovers from latter games)
*In Heroes 5 there are "ents" to use as 3D models for the sprite. If not you can use Unicorn or the Tiger, but the Unicorn fits Stonehenge or Neutral monster better (doesn't fit on new swamp town theme)
-If you include it, White Tiger could be "great tiger" or something. The white doesn't suit it; it looks decolored. Same for elves.
*You could change Gargantuans for Megadragon making it "smaller" than the H4 version. As this is de-powered, find another ultimate monster (There are many Max Tier or Max Tierable extra monsters anyways; the Gargantuan you just took out is a good candidate as any)

Stonehenge (ex-Conflux): Home terrains are grass (only lush) and Magic Garden
When making new buildings use monumental stones (prehistoric and andean/incan)
Special buildings include the Magic University (that like the original one can teach any magic, but it also upgrades them - However a hero can use it only once and it takes movement - otherwise "you are too tired to study magic at this time"), a lucky faeries/rainbow thingy, a Creature Portal that gives you additional creatures from any of your town-specific ones (they are the same that you can buy the other dwellings for), and Mage Guilds for ALL magics. They can recruit any magic hero (just like Barbarians can recruit any Might hero) and for a greater price the Elementalist heroes which come with Basic on Chaos, Nature and Order magics.
Sprite[1], Leprechaun**[2], Water Elemental[3A], Fire Elemental[3B], Earth Elemental[4A], Wind Elemental[4B], Faerie Dragon*[5A], and Thunderbird*[5B]
** If you don't find anything better, put the leprechaun here. Yo u could also reverse the order with Sprite. If not, you can replace it with "White Tiger" or Satyr.
* Phoenix got changed to Outpost town and so Stonehenge isn't too fire-themed (as Faerie Dragons are already fire). Change spellbook of Faerie Dragon so it doesn't have Thunderbolt, but give it Sparks.


--- Make a new sea-themed mostly-Might "Outpost" town. Home terrain is Water-Shallow, Water-Deep and Sand (Beach)
Special buildings include Lighthouse (improves movement at sea), Sea Academy (teaches and upgrades Navigation for a fee), Traffic Cove (marketplace bonus), Treasure Trove (slightly increases gold, resources and XP from found treasures), and Hideout (hides garrisons). Has Pirate and Corsair heroes (two classes); pirates have Navigation and Stealth and predisposed towards Offense and Pillage, while Corsairs have Navigation and Tactics and are predisposed towards Defense and Diplomacy.
Graphically wise, make buildings based on caribbean, old naval flags, and enlightment-era transatlantic ships.
Bandit[1], Pirate[2], Mermaid[3A], Harpy[3B], Cyclops [5A], Ice Demon [5B], Sea Monster [5A], and Phoenix [5B]

--- This makes the Barbarian Might town changed as follows:
Home terrains are  (Barbarians can't recruit the Pirate/Corsair heroes as they are land-based counterpart)
Berseker[1], Centaur[2], Goblin Rider*[3A], Shaman*[3B], Ogre Magi[4A], Troll[4B], Behemoth [5A], and the Frenzied Gnasher[5B]
* It or something to replace it has to be recreated from 3D. A Warg Rider from BFME2 would do the trick.
* Can be imported (make sprite from 3D) as a goblin shaman from H5

--- I hate the human "life" (which should be called Light, as also Light magic) town anyways. It is so boring, and graphically repugnant. (see Graphical) . However, most would say it's a necessary evil.
Home terrains are changed to dirt and dirt-mossy, which is what they eat anyways. This also means they share one of their home terrains with their equivalent and opposite Necropolis, which means they will fight on equal footing there and it would be ""epic"" (quote marks not for emphasis).
Replace the stupid "squires" with peasants.
Pikemen are plactically giants and don't fit. Replace them with Gripphons (which preserve/rampart no longer uses)
Lower the level of Cavaliers and/or make them "special" (like creature portal was or something). Replace their highest slot with Catapults. Make an alternate dwelling place for catapults which isn't as grim (if you keep the theme).
If one would ever attempt to divide it, make a Feudal-Based down-to-earth town (with peasants, squires, pikemen, ballistas, knights, and catapults) in contrast to a Heavenly-Based one (With Archers, Griphons, Crusaders, Monks, and Angels) ; although I still believe they would work better as two sides of the same, if only done correctly (which isn't easy as this horrible default town shows). I think the key is making them more realistic, like the Catapult and Peasant dwellings, water wheel and windmill, and the other "Medieval" aspects which are represented on adventure objects (fairs, shooting grounds, small grey fortifications filled with flavorful stuff, etc.) and not "perfect square world".

____________________________________________________________________________________________

- Editor and related:
-- Should include passability editor
-- Should auto-change special appearances of town levels and heroes on its display
-- "blackness" (subterranean) should allow you to put or remove objects from it
-- Should include object editor to put any graphic on any object
-- Artifact piles should be editable
-- Messages/Guardians and/or prices when finding objects should be editable (even H3 had it)
-- Ferries should be able to be linked specifically and be nameable like gates
-- Create overlays/modify terrains with effects as there was on H3
-- As the last 6 terrains are each associated with an alignement, they are good candidates.
-- While on that, reevaluate movement costs. What do you mean Scorched Earth has only 1.25 movement cost while deep swamp has 2? Is burning on hot magma not an impediment to movement?

-- The triggers of map objects should include an "erase this object" function (as placed events have). Triggerable effects should include Count demaning momevent and Decrease movement for the day. This would allow "stay the night" objects that drain you and give bonuses for remaining movement.
-- Triggers should also include a "one per day" optional clause, as most map objects have.
-- Furthermore, triggers should allow you to erase spells and skills from heroes ("forget"). WoG could do it.
-- Triggers should be able to demolish towwn buildings too, not just construct them.

Graphical:

- Why did they put so little frames on each animation-sprite? Following the movement on some of them is hard, specially with all the sparkles and flashes, so they look lazy because of that. Even the same moveement with more frames would have looked smooth. As they did in in 3D, they could have just added them; they choose howw many and how fast. Stronghold has animations with many frames and displays lots of them, and its also better graphically optimized. They should have streamlined the sprite graphics like them. Of course, H4 has possibly more variety of sprites. A possible concern for them could have been "fitting it on the disk space"; yet, even that seems underused (doesn't reach 700 and not even 650 MB). Also their cinematics were low-res, so they can't put fitting them in as excuse. The other matter would be "performance" because the sprites have to be loaded on the RAM for the editor and game, yet  if they did it for that they didn't account for much; as their "sizes" (height per width) of images are too big because of the giant sparkles (that sometimes extend the space to nine or more times the area of the object itself). All in all, it was simply poor vision.

Also, the lead graphics designer was probably a flamboyant gay. "Sparkle sparkle sparkle rainbow rainbow rainbow" and miniature-chibi-pet looking creatures. I don't judge his sexual orientation but this is suppossed to be a high fantasy and science fiction franchise/multiverse, not a children's "fairy tale". Fleshy sparky muscle angels and BDSM titans on miniskirt make it worse, and the fuschsia stuff on p6 and life town go to Camp territory. My god! Even zombies are dressed with pink as snows. It looks like something that would make Jesus Christ Superstar blush.

-- Terrain tiles need an overhaul
-- Make a new and darker subterranean terrain
-- Fix town screen displaying "grass" when a city is built over Scorched Earth, and other similar abominations. (For example, if I remember correctly, combat map of scorched earth is also "lush grass"... DUMB! two expansions to fix it, they had...)
-- Change height effect so it doesn't look like the terrain is plastic (light reflection no, instead simulate "sunlight" effect on terrain; Cube engine and Unreal engine 3/4 do it well)
-- Water should have surface animations (even H3 had it). If people are not confortable at including them with the tile, make them different overlays.
-- Animated lava cracks (again, H3 had them). Also, current cracks are awful.
-- Swamp terrain swap (confuses shallow and deep swamp)
-- Needs muddy water (not just "blue")
-- Make green algae that moves (even recoloring the yellow one to green and seablue versions would suffice, maybe also horizontal-flip it)

-- The color of the "life" town makes it completely unbearable, unlike how it was on H3 (which was boring yet bearable)
Make the colors if possible player-color dependent. If not, replace all the "purple"/fuchsia with blue shades.
(... at least the buildings do look "cyanblue" and have a dark touch, even if several are too blocky/wally)
-- New dwellings for elementals
-- Eastern-Looking dwelling for Ifrit.
-- While at it, make town screens more interesting with buildings that take actual screen space, not void (common complaint)
-- Change the Adventure Map appearance of Order town. Current "Square within Squares" is the most boring thing to ever have existed, it has no detail or character. Could make it eastern-looking like the Conflux, and its own arab-themed buildings.

-- More bridges and constructions
-- Should have special overlays for the editor of color tintings and darkness levels.
-- Needs independent fogs and smokes
-- More color variety for objects; for example just green, orange and pale fungi, purple vegetation, etc. (but please no more rainbows, and NO more sparkles!)
-- Needs dark dirt mountains like the subterranean mountains of H3
-- Also actual rough mountains (like the rocks), not just those sandlike ones like the beach

-- Replace medusa attack, add effect or projectile. The "I look at you and you get damaged" is very dumb.
-- If possible remove operator from Dragon Golem or make it smaller so the dragon golem looks bigger. It looks ridiculous like this.
-- Make wolves larger and more hairy/darker/menacing. They look like toy dogs even in relation to other creatures. They seem smaller than sprites or halflings; it's absurd.

Sound:
- Needs audible footsteps sounds in battle. Heroes 3 had them.
- Different footsteps sounds for different creatures.

ADDITIONAL H4 MOD ARTIFACTS

Some of these may be harder to program than others,
There are alternate abilities possible with similar effects for any artifact that is hard to program with the current engine.

LEGENDARY/RELIC

- Assassin's Hood (Head)
If the hero has stelth skill, becomes invisible still when next to other heroes or creatures
If the hero doesn't, acts like Master Stealth skill.

- Admiral's Coat (Armor)
If the hero has the Seamanship skill, increases +5 attack and defense (melee and ranged) of all creatures and heroes of the army in sea battles.
If not, acts like the Expert Seamanship skill.

- Archmage's Robe
Grants all spells (if you have the appropiate magic), but spells cost twice as many spell points to cast.

- Ring of Barbarism
If hero has Melee, it doubles melee attack.
If not, it acts like Expert Melee skill.

- Ranger's Cape
If the hero has Archery, it doubles ranged damage
If the hero doesn't have Archery, it acts like Expert Archery skill.

- Combat Boots
If the hero has Combat, it halves damage taken from non-magical sources
If the hero doesn't have Combat, it acts like Expert Combat skill.

- Dampener Shield
If the hero has Resistance skill, it grants all Ward spells at the beggining of combat too.
If the her doesn't have Resistance skill, it acts like Expert Resistance.

- Royal Regalia (neck)
If the hero has Nobility skill, it makes recruiting creatures from that town 50% cheaper.
If the hero doesn't have Nobility, it acts like Expert Nobility
(in second case, hero will stop being governor of a city if it takes the artifact off; or at least, it will cease to have any effect)

- Spellcaster's Diary (left hand)
Any spell your hero casts in combat will create a scroll of that type in the backpack, if there isn't already one there.

- Chaos Crown (provisory name)
- Nature Crown (provisory name)
- Life Crown (provisory name)
- Order Crown (provisory name)
- Death Crown (provisory name)
If the hero has the magic skill, it "grants" (acts like) Grandmaster of all of that magic subskills (except the main one)
If the hero has no such magic skill, it "grants" (acts like) Grandmaster of such magic (but only the main one, and does not grant spells)
Effects are not cumulative with already learned skills.
____________
CLICK on the image to discover H4 Greatest Mod!

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EnergyZ
EnergyZ


Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
posted June 12, 2016 02:03 PM

That's a rather long list, it would require a modding team. How do you think other mods were created?
____________

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Baronus
Baronus


Famous Hero
posted June 12, 2016 08:12 PM

Of course big plans. It need a team of programmist :-) Equilibris team cant done 20% of this :-) But good that you express it. You maust have conceptions. Real mod as I think will be realistic and with possible ideas. All good in your creations! Its very interesting for me:-) HIV is especialy my game :-)

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted June 12, 2016 08:14 PM

Quote:
This is theory/fantasy


I stopped reading here.

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scythesong
scythesong


Adventuring Hero
posted June 12, 2016 09:05 PM
Edited by scythesong at 21:17, 12 Jun 2016.

You need to understand the game better if you want changes like these to work.

For example.
H4 classes are balanced around synergy and how well different might/magic schools work with each other. That's why Beastmasters get a subpar class bonus, because Combat and Nature already work ridiculously well together (the bonus is actually very useful in early game).
Compare to the Beastlord. Nobility and Nature Magic work poorly together (pretty much the only synergy is Diplomacy and Summoning, which are terrible for late game). It could even be argued that Beastlord class bonus needs a buff.
That's why you can't go around just adding "unique" class bonuses.

Also, the way H4 already works (each faction is allied with two other factions) things could become very complicated if you suddenly added changes like these.

All in all, I think what you're suggesting might work better if you just go for a complete redesign.

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Ebonheart
Ebonheart


Famous Hero
Rush the rush
posted June 12, 2016 09:25 PM

Salamandre said:
Quote:
This is theory/fantasy


I stopped reading here.

Ditto.

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yogi
yogi


Promising
Famous Hero
of picnics
posted June 12, 2016 10:43 PM

scythesong said:
You need to understand the game better if you want changes like these to work.

For example.
H4 classes are balanced around synergy and how well different might/magic schools work with each other. That's why Beastmasters get a subpar class bonus, because Combat and Nature already work ridiculously well together (the bonus is actually very useful in early game).
Compare to the Beastlord. Nobility and Nature Magic work poorly together (pretty much the only synergy is Diplomacy and Summoning, which are terrible for late game). It could even be argued that Beastlord class bonus needs a buff.
That's why you can't go around just adding "unique" class bonuses.

Also, the way H4 already works (each faction is allied with two other factions) things could become very complicated if you suddenly added changes like these.

All in all, I think what you're suggesting might work better if you just go for a complete redesign.


someone else gets it great post

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TheUnknown
TheUnknown


Known Hero
posted June 12, 2016 11:51 PM
Edited by TheUnknown at 23:52, 12 Jun 2016.

I think that these ideas would be easier to achieve trough Heroes III or V, not IV

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iLiVeInAbOx05
iLiVeInAbOx05


Hired Hero
posted June 13, 2016 04:24 PM

Don't worry about the negativity, just mod it up, and try to keep track of how you do everything (write it down!) so you can help others who would like to mod

Especially the object editing and potentially adding new objects and artifacts.. if you can figure out how to successfully do that, I'm sure there would be several people interested in how it can be done.. myself included

I would even see about making a tool to help automate that process (or just add that capability to the H4MG tool I'm already making).

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Baronus
Baronus


Famous Hero
posted June 13, 2016 06:03 PM

Some ideas can be do in another ways if we think. Eg. I heard about scripts to maps with week monsters growth...

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Promising
Known Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted June 13, 2016 08:25 PM
Edited by NimoStar at 20:58, 13 Jun 2016.

I predicted the little faith of the community in a big mod.
Changes and innovation tend to not be well received in many places. That could be applied to Heroes IV itself: most people thouught the game was a failure. That is why most or all the changes were reversed for Heroes 5, which is the closest game to Heroes 3 and has nearly nothing of Heroes 4. New and different ideas = bad... or at least badly regarded at the beggining. But Heroes IV has a loyal following now, doesn't it? How many 14 year old games have an active community today?
So, to those that encourage, thank you.
However, the lack of faith. won't actually discourage me.


As for the classes, "unique" doesn't mean "unbalanced". 20% more power on summon wolf isn't "unique". Getting Wolves a third attack or First Strike would be unique, ans still not unbalanced. Also, the more powerful combinations will be buffed.
In other news, you haven't actually read the new planned skill system if you think it will be just that. Now ALL SKILLS WILL LEVEL UP INDEPENDENTLY, I plan to get rid of skill prerequisites for others (at least beyond "lvl1 main skill" if it's too hard to delete that). Also Non-Magic skill will get spell-like abilities. So the old "Nature is strong, nobility is weak" doesn't apply any more. All will be rebalanced. Equilibris has already modified skills. I have access to good hex editor programs. Skills and prestige classes could use "artifact" powers too. That skill rebalancing won't be a problem I predict.

IF artifacts cannot be easily added, there are plenty of "unused artifacts" which at the very least are listed on the campaign editor. It is only matter of editing them with images and powers, which may be taken from spells, abilities or skills. Equilibris has already added artiacts.

The solvable problems I predict are related to:
- map object editing
- adding scripts

The harder problems:
- making spell-like abilities to work
- terrain edit / add terrains
- adding new factions (and alignements?)
- modifying town buildings

I have already got advances I hadn't seen other people get normally, like heroes starting without skills.
Also, some are simply workarounds and ideas made - for example, while some others take ages to try to make a script-based random map generator, I just used the Custom Brush function for the same purposes. I could show some of the results so you see I'm not kidding.
The "instant made maps" are playable and have little problems (the only one persistent is random passability issues on the entrances of some objects, but they are expendable). Their ambientation is more intense and rich than any of the default maps for Heroes IV. They include, depending on the case, in addition to decoration, obstacles, monsters, treasures, map objects, quests, and towns, all of which can be added to the brushes in different layers with their own settings and frequency. Events could also be addded, but they also have to be added to the map events to work, since they are only "named" in the map object. All other features will work in any map. The only thing not included is the terrain types below the stuff.

In a moment it is this...

http://s32.postimg.org/3t6c80aw5/2016_06_13_15_12_50.jpg

And then...

http://s32.postimg.org/omdca5sth/2016_06_13_15_18_53.jpg


Passability, perfect on first try in this case (click)

Near- Instant maps of whatever complexity with potentially infinite different templates.
I have made dozerns of them, sadly most of them are lost. However, I will publish my brush pack as soon as I know where is the best place. Any reccomendations for that?




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Karmakeld
Karmakeld


Known Hero
posted June 21, 2016 12:00 AM
Edited by Karmakeld at 12:07, 01 Jul 2016.

A Good Place for uploading would Be celestialheavens.com - Fellow heroes fansite, already hosting mods and usefull programs.
So have you shared the instant map generator yet?
I know many are interested in a RMG, and although it seems yours really create the map from scratch, I think some would find it useful.

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Promising
Known Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted July 05, 2016 06:33 PM

I will search for that, thank you.

The brushes are included in my release of the mod as for now. Reading the instructions in the thread it can be known where to find them and how to use them (they come all bundled for immediate campaign editor reading without having to import them one by one, but they require equilibris editor or the changes described there to game files to work).

http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=42574
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NimoStar
NimoStar


Promising
Known Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted November 01, 2016 09:10 PM
Edited by NimoStar at 21:18, 01 Nov 2016.

See that I really made many of the features? lol

Many others remain on hold of course, but I woudn't say they are impossible in the future.

One of the things I wopuld like to do after the new graphics are introduced, is changing the skills and/or adding new ones.

As there are five magic schools, and only 4 non-magic ones, I would propose to have another non-magic skill, and an hybrid magic-nonmagic one.

Magics as we know: Chaos, Nature, Death, Order, Life (the last skill in all of these but Chaos is non-magic and related to army creatures: Summoning, Necromancy, Charm, Resurrection)
Nonmagics: Nobility, Tactics, Scouting, Combat

The fifth nonmagic would be as mentioned Barbarism.

But the "Hybrid" ones are probably easier to implement.

The first "Hybrid" skill would be "Learning".



Learning:This hero gains +10% experience. Other heroes in the hero's army gain +5% experience (Grandmaster: 50% you, 25% others)
Scholar: This hero can learn and teach 1st any first level spells from heroes, shrines or artifacts (Grandmaster: 5th level). Heroes still need the skill to cast the spells.
Arcanism: Requires at least the same level of Scholar first in order to be leveled up. You can cast 1st level spells of any magic school you don't have, but they cost you double the spell points. (Grandmaster: 5th level - Notice these spells won't have "+% efectiveness" bonuses as those are from the magic schools specific subskills)
Erudition: Your caster creatures get +20% spell points, and +20% spell efectiveness for all magic types (Grandmaster: Up to +100% spell points and spell efectiveness). Requires the same level of Learning first.

(Since skills like Tactics and their subskills mostly don't benefit caster creatures, the last subskill balances that)

The second Hybrid skill would be "Mindfulness" (as "meditation" was already taken).
The skill would mainly fill gaps left by others - for example, tactics makes your creatures faster, but not yout hero. And no skill increases HP, or lets you unlearn unfortunate skills, or increases the stats of other heroes.



Mindfulness: This hero gets +25% HP and +1 Morale (up to +100% HP and +4 Morale on Master, +150% HP and +5 Morale on grandmaster)
Awakening: The hero gets +2 movement, +1 speed, and +1 Luck (up to +10 movement, +5 speed, and +5 Luck in Grandmaster)
Listener: Other heroes on your army get +1 movement, +1 defense, +10 hp, +1 attack, +1 damage, +5 extra spell points, and regenerate 1 extra spell point per day (up to Grandmaster +5 movement, +5 defense, +50 hp, +5 attack, +5 damage, +25 spell points, and regenerating an extra 5 spell points per day)
Unlearning: Allows you to unlearn other skills and subskills for XP. Basic only unlearns Basic skills and gives 200 XP per unlearned skill level, Advanced unlearns up to advanced skills and gives 400 XP per unlearned skill level, Expert up to expert skills and gives 600 XP per unlearned skill level, Master unlearns up to Master skills and gives 800 XP per unlearned skill level... Grandmaster unlearns up to Grandmaster skills and gives 1000 XP per unlearned skill level. So, if for example, you use Grandmaster Unlearning to unlearn another Grandmaster level skill, you would gain 5000 XP (five levels * 1000 xp), although at the level you will have by then, this will be less than a single hero level.


These are not impossible because Equilibris guys had already programmed their own abilities in assembly. Also, there's already many artifacts with wacky effects, as well as the skills themselves, and it's onluy a mnatter of copying them to get these ones, depending on how they are coded. One could also use scripting and integrate it for things such as Unlearning, which would not be as different to ERM - Equi and maps already implemented extra scripts.
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Baronus
Baronus


Famous Hero
posted November 01, 2016 09:25 PM

I would be wonderfull if we will see new skills. In fact we have only 9 big skills. And 11 types of heroes. We need 2 new skills minimum to give different skill all heroes. And maybe will be possible using equlilibris give each hero another start skill complet! Or add specialties like HIII.

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Galaad
Galaad


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Enrothian Conservative Party
posted November 01, 2016 09:44 PM

I would like to suggest another +QP for Nimostar, keep up the great work mate.
____________
i think people grow something like onions -fred79
My tuning is mighty -Ghost

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Promising
Known Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted November 02, 2016 03:24 AM

Thank you but I don't know if this thread deserves it, so far the only person that it has truly inspired to change is... myself I'm afraid

Anyways...

I think many of these things such as new skills could begon to come true if someone took a look at the Equi "H4.dll" and how it works .- with such tool we could extend indefinitely the game functionality of the .exe, otherwise limited because of the already compiled executable. Probably the .dll can be extended indefinitely without breaking functionality (3.55 dll is much bigger than 3.51 DLL, and they also implemented a campaign editor DLL there)

***

I found a loophole with my old Unlearning concept (old as in: Made up four hours ago lol). I will state it here so people don't make the same kind of mistakes if we add or script such thing on the future.

Old concept was:
Quote:
Allows you to unlearn other skills and subskills for XP. Basic only unlearns Basic skills and gives 200 XP per unlearned skill level, Advanced unlearns up to advanced skills and gives 400 XP per unlearned skill level, Expert up to expert skills and gives 600 XP per unlearned skill level, Master unlearns up to Master skills and gives 800 XP per unlearned skill level... Grandmaster unlearns up to Grandmaster skills and gives 1000 XP per unlearned skill level. So, if for example, you use Grandmaster Unlearning to unlearn another Grandmaster level skill, you would gain 5000 XP (five levels * 1000 xp), although at the level you will have by then, this will be less than a single hero level.


But in this way, you could go to Witch Hut, learn always the same skill, and then unlearn it for +200 XP!
Also, Unlearning on higher levels would almost always be useless, because, why unlearn grandmaster abilities for such lowly compensation? Unless you had Grandmaster Navigation from a campaign, and you advance to a waterless map, there's no point in it (unless you wanted really hard to change special subclass).
So, my new approach is this:
Unlearning: Allows you to unlearn skills.
Basic: One skill level every 5 days, to unlearn gives +1% of your current total experience.
Advanced: One skill level every 4 days, to unlearn gives +3% of your current total experience.
Expert: One skill level every 3 days, to unlearn gives +5% of your current total experience.
Master: One skill level every 2 days, to unlearn gives +7% of your current total experience.
GrandMaster: One skill level every day, to unlearn gives +10% of your current total experience.

* * *

Other possible additional change would be to make a new magic skill. However, this would only be applied if the rest of existing magic skills are not changed(there may be better ways)

Change the fourth Chaos Magic subskill from "Sorcery" to "Sacrifices". Since all the others are focused on creatures, why not this one?
- Basic Sacrifices: Allows the hero to sacrifice in the adventure map level 1 creatures to himself, to heal his HP and get 100% of their experience value.
- Advanced Sacrifices: Allows the hero to sacrifice in the adventure map up to level 2 creatures to himself or level 1 to other heroes, to heal their HP and get 120% of their experience value.
- Expert Sacrifices: Allows the hero to sacrifice in the adventure map up to level 3 creatures to himself or level 1 to other heroes, to heal their HP and get 130% of their experience value.
- Master Sacrifices: Allows the hero to sacrifice in the adventure map up to level 4 creatures to himself or level 3 other heroes, to heal their HP and get 140% of their experience value.
- Master Sacrifices: Allows the hero to sacrifice in the adventure map up to level 4 creatures to himself or other heroes, to heal their HP and get 150% of their experience value. The hero gains the Sacrifice spell and casts it with +50% efectiveness.

A new magic subkill is the one now called "Sorcery", and is on the following new skill:

Casting: You get +5% efectiveness in all magic schools, +10% max mana and +1 mana regeneration (In Grandmaster to +25% efectiveness, +50% max mana and +5 mana regeneration). Required to gain same levels of Sorcery, Convoker and Obscurantism.
Sorcery: Learn all 1st level Damage spells -of all schools- and you can cast them without needing the magic skills. Spells you cast do +5% damage, and you diminish all enemy hero and creature Magic Resistance in combat by 5% (in Grandmaster up to 5th level, +25% damage, -25% enemy magic resistance)
Convoker: Learn all 1st level Summoning, Illusion and Raise spells, and you can cast them without needing the magic skills.  Your Summon, Illusion and Raise spells cost -5% mana and have +5% effectiveness (In Grandmaster up to 5th level, -25% mana and +25% efectiveness)
Obscurantism: Learn all 1st level blessing and cursing spells, and you can cast them without the magic skills. Enemy heroes get -1 speed. (in Grandmaster up to 5th level and enemy heroes get -5 speed)


:::::::

If anyone has any ideas for modifying or adding skills, or about the game in general, please post them here!
I'm looking for simple changes and fixes for 0.12 specially, but anything may help.
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AlHazin
AlHazin


Famous Hero
Flying through the windshield
posted November 02, 2016 02:27 PM

It comes to the same as creating a new game, or almost. Because global modding requires surely as much work. We should create Heroes VIII lol

I support your idea Nimostar. If I had the skills, I would've helped you.
____________
"The Erwin is out there as they say once in a while lol" - Verriker.
A felt change of consciousness - Markkur

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Karmakeld
Karmakeld


Known Hero
posted November 03, 2016 10:51 PM

You feel your Ideas mostly inspire yourself. It's mentioned in the post just before mine, "I would help if only I knew how". I think most people lack the knowledge of how to do advanced modding. I follow your topics with great interest, although I don't share all of your modding ideas. One simple reason for me, I that I've planned my campaign based on how the game is and what objects, skills, spells etc is available. Sure I'd love to add new objects, change their functionality, make use of your creature heroes, customize heroes and their class abilities and perhaps more, as that would fit my story and add more depth to it - really feel you play out the story, dispite the limitations of this old game. But in the end, I simply lack the know how to do pretty much all of these thing. My only help are user friendly tool and programs provided by others.
I will post a list of stuff I'd love to add or change one of these upcoming days (you've asked for that a while back as well).

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