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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: How YOU can save the HoMM series
Thread: How YOU can save the HoMM series This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT»
Galaad
Galaad


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posted December 08, 2016 05:03 PM

Mediczero said:
Though considering V was the first Heroes game developed by the new developers, one could suppose that the initial flaws where understandable.


The first thing Ubi did when they got the IP was to dismiss the team who gave us three awesome games in a row (and 4 for some) alongside a full year of work they had for the upcoming title.

That is the part that is not acceptable to me.

Quote:
However, the point still stands. V was flawed, but in the end (and with the expansions) it still stands as one of the greatest entries in the series. You certainly can't claim it to be a bad game.


Still ranks behind III and II.
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AlHazin
AlHazin


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Tutto possibile
posted December 08, 2016 05:11 PM

By producing the game for ourselves making fun, big bucks and glory all along.
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Mediczero
Mediczero


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posted December 08, 2016 05:45 PM

Galaad said:
Mediczero said:
Though considering V was the first Heroes game developed by the new developers, one could suppose that the initial flaws where understandable.


The first thing Ubi did when they got the IP was to dismiss the team who gave us three awesome games in a row (and 4 for some) alongside a full year of work they had for the upcoming title.

That is the part that is not acceptable to me.

Quote:
However, the point still stands. V was flawed, but in the end (and with the expansions) it still stands as one of the greatest entries in the series. You certainly can't claim it to be a bad game.


Still ranks behind III and II.

The first I have to agree with you, that was stupid. It could possible have been better if they had gone with the old team. But of course, if the old team didn't want to work for Ubi (who can blame them), it's not like they had much choice. Can't say I would be too trilled with what they had planned for Heroes V, but that's a matter of opinion.
For the second, it's a matter of opinion. Unless we where to analyse each game in terms of mechanics, gameplay, artstyle, and everything else.

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Ebonheart
Ebonheart


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Rush the rush
posted December 08, 2016 05:52 PM

I must say that when comparing H3 to H4 I find that I like the tactical battle system in H4 more than H3 which is (at least in multiplayer) rather dull (it can be very interesting/tricky on fanmade hard maps though). The downside was the removal of the hexagon/chess-like board design.

The overall play and map, building etc, was by far more enjoyable in H3/H2. It is also what stood out the most to me and is what made Heroes...well "Heroes". I simply do not recognise the game after H4.

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Galaad
Galaad


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posted December 08, 2016 05:55 PM
Edited by Galaad at 18:02, 08 Dec 2016.

Mediczero said:
But of course, if the old team didn't want to work for Ubi (who can blame them), it's not like they had much choice.


Did you miss the Erwin HC interview? This is not what happened.

Erwin said:
I recommended to change the universe, so very fast, instead of looking for writers or game designers who were coming from New World Computing and 3DO [...] really we made no real effort to contact these guys, to identify those guys, to contact them and try to find something interesting for them to come and work for us.


Quote:
Can't say I would be too trilled with what they had planned for Heroes V, but that's a matter of opinion.
For the second, it's a matter of opinion. Unless we where to analyse each game in terms of mechanics, gameplay, artstyle, and everything else.


Of course it is a matter of opinion, however there is a general consensus, and if you check out metacritics, you will see V ranks behind III and II.

Ebonheart said:
I simply do not recognise the game after H4.


Exactly like my older brother, I tried many times to play h5 with him but he just couldn't go through it.
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Stevie
Stevie


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posted December 08, 2016 06:25 PM
Edited by Stevie at 18:25, 08 Dec 2016.

I'm sure the old team wouldn't have relocated from the US to France to work on M&M under Ubisoft even if they got asked.
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PandaTar
PandaTar


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posted December 08, 2016 06:28 PM

I played 5 a little while with each faction, but never felt like playing, truly, heroes. After a time, I was just bored and annoyed by all those 3D tosh. That's why I was so hopeful for VI ... which turned out to be a disaster.

ToE was decent, but felt so 'too much' all those alternated upgrades. It felt as if they were adding all brainstorming ideas they found coolest in the game, and many of those were much better than the another upgrade, sometimes looking as if a third upgrade rather than an alternative.

Still, H5 had some nice stuff here and there, but I cannot really think of anything which is particularly a gem, because most stuff seem to be related to previous games, even skill-schemes, because they followed a logic similar to H4, though designed in a different layout.

***********

As to the first question of this thread: Memorize what you treasure and save it. Then move on.
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Galaad
Galaad


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posted December 08, 2016 06:29 PM

Stevie said:
I'm sure the old team wouldn't have relocated from the US to France to work on M&M under Ubisoft even if they got asked.


You don't know that, it was their baby and they had already started to work on it, if someone with influence at Ubisoft could have lobbied in order to offer them a good deal, I find it highly possible they would have moved. Many people relocate because of work you know.
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Stevie
Stevie


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posted December 08, 2016 06:38 PM

If it was their baby and all that, then why didn't they try to talk with the new M&M team being formed and see if something could be arranged?
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verriker
verriker


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Only Erwin Good Die Young
posted December 08, 2016 07:17 PM

Stevie said:
If it was their baby and all that, then why didn't they try to talk with the new M&M team being formed and see if something could be arranged?


in fact, NWC was deliberately all set up to be continued as its own developer if only a new publisher was bothered to invest in it/support it lol

Christian said:
The move to Solvang was more of a new beginning. I never got to confirm it, but I suspect that Jon was prepared for 3DO to close its doors, and wanted to be set up "lean and mean" for when that happened, so that New World could hopefully continue on as their own game studio. The atmosphere beforehand was mixed... those moving saw a fresh start, but there was a touch of sadness because there were others leaving.

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Stevie
Stevie


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posted December 08, 2016 08:27 PM

Where are you going with that?
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verriker
verriker


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Only Erwin Good Die Young
posted December 08, 2016 08:36 PM

not to Ashan that's for sure lol
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Stevie
Stevie


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posted December 08, 2016 08:48 PM
Edited by Stevie at 20:51, 08 Dec 2016.

So nowhere at all.
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Baronus
Baronus


Supreme Hero
posted December 08, 2016 09:26 PM

Ive played only NWC games. Ashan games only in youtube. Never want play Ashan Heroes or MMX after looked it. Ordinary games like all.
We should help all fanmade projects in NWC themes. And modding old games. We have MMIII-V editors. MMVI-VIII too. MMIX tools are easy to do, because lithrez is in a lot, a lot of games. So we can made completly new games based on MMIII-IX in old technology. Heroes II and III to. Only HIV is too hard to decompile. MMI-II and HI are rather too old. Remakes rather needed.

Ubi period is closed now as I see. Vivendi period looks rather dark. They are not a artist but casheaters. I dont see their games another like black humor.

And we can play JVC Creature Quest mobile new game...

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verriker
verriker


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posted December 08, 2016 09:50 PM

Stevie said:
So nowhere at all.


well what's else to spell out, rather than even look into lapping up original studio which knows what it's doing, cheap as chips and gagging for lifeline they rather let it die on its arse and court Nival instead lol
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Stevie
Stevie


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posted December 08, 2016 10:48 PM

Ubisoft letting NWC die is just about as accurate as Activision or Microsoft letting it die, basically none of their business. And yes, Ubisoft didn't care for the well-being of the M&M brand to search for the former devs, that much is clear, but the former devs didn't care for the well-being of M&M to search for Ubisoft either. History has shown us that what little of them was left was disbanded right after 3DO filed for bankruptcy, Christian's allegations about JVC being prepared to survive not only prove unconfirmed, but also untrue.
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verriker
verriker


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posted December 08, 2016 11:44 PM
Edited by verriker at 23:46, 08 Dec 2016.

Stevie said:
Ubisoft letting NWC die is just about as accurate as Activision or Microsoft letting it die, basically none of their business.


none of Activision or Microsoft's business so far as they don't own a creation of NWC and have no good reason in heaven or earth to hire or consult, certainly Ubisoft's responsibility as the license holder to have an interest in collaborating with NWC if they were bothered to create authentic Might and Magic games rather than use a bald community manager's fanfiction lol

if you will scrap all their work and make no effort whatsoever to even research who they are beyond briefly chatting to JVC after he already got a new job then one can expect to be criticised and not taken seriously, after all what is left of a creative work really when all its visionaries, its heritage and its fans are ****canned aside for something unrelated by someone who presumes to know better, I would say there's more to Might and Magic than just a license bought with money and some gameplay frameworks cloned from past games lol

Stevie said:
And yes, Ubisoft didn't care for the well-being of the M&M brand to search for the former devs, that much is clear, but the former devs didn't care for the well-being of M&M to search for Ubisoft either.


pretty bad equivalency I'd say with all respect, any onus is clearly on Ubisoft for that one, former devs are obviously not anywhere near being in the driving seat to even know who how and where to contact in 2003 when project is in preproduction,

not to mention it's not for us to conjure up an assumption whether they cared or not with very little info, for sure you can see Terry Ray was passionate and motivated to help even 15 years later when simply located and approached, also I can certainly cite for you one NWC team leader who was pitching his ideas and his knowledge to Ubisoft, and got nothing but a brick wall in response lol

I don't think that Paul Romero and Rob King going over to pathetically bang on the office door in Paris or not makes any difference (hint, they did not), Team Fabrice would anyway be obliged to research the series a bit, hire them and get the credibility and cheers if they do or get the moaning and bollocking if they choose some unrelated rando instead, same applies to rest of the team lol

Stevie said:
History has shown us that what little of them was left was disbanded right after 3DO filed for bankruptcy, Christian's allegations about JVC being prepared to survive not only prove unconfirmed, but also untrue.


Christian interview actually from 2005 well after bankruptcy so nothing new under the sun there to retcon his comments as you suggest, note one does not generally relocate to a new studio in a new town at random intending to faff around and die some months later lol
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Stevie
Stevie


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posted December 09, 2016 01:57 PM
Edited by Stevie at 14:01, 09 Dec 2016.

verriker said:
Stevie said:
Ubisoft letting NWC die is just about as accurate as Activision or Microsoft letting it die, basically none of their business.


none of Activision or Microsoft's business so far as they don't own a creation of NWC and have no good reason in heaven or earth to hire or consult, certainly Ubisoft's responsibility as the license holder to have an interest in collaborating with NWC if they were bothered to create authentic Might and Magic games rather than use a bald community manager's fanfiction lol

if you will scrap all their work and make no effort whatsoever to even research who they are beyond briefly chatting to JVC after he already got a new job then one can expect to be criticised and not taken seriously, after all what is left of a creative work really when all its visionaries, its heritage and its fans are ****canned aside for something unrelated by someone who presumes to know better, I would say there's more to Might and Magic than just a license bought with money and some gameplay frameworks cloned from past games lol


I don't get why you insist on drawing a picture where Ubisoft is to be blamed for NWC's discontinuity, by all intents and purposes NWC's death is the complete and direct result of 3DO's internal snow-ups leading to bankruptcy. You should know that NWC as an entity was not an independent studio ever since 1996, so when their parent took the fall, not only they had to take the fall right along with them, but they also had to accept whatever fate was in store for the M&M franchise without interference as they were no longer in a position of having a say over it. Why's that? Well, obviously because JVC in his wisdom sold ownership of NWC and the M&M franchise for 13$ million and put their fate at the mercy of 3DO's capable hands. Kinda dispels the romanticized vision about JVC and "his baby", "his legacy", "his creation", when you look at things and realize that him renouncing direct control was the first mistake championing all the others that followed in the ensuing snowshow. Had he not sold anything, NWC wouldn't have had to face dissolution and the M&M franchise wouldn't have had to be sold to Ubisoft. But no one ever gives him snow for that, right?

Also, no one denies that Ubisoft could have benefited from the know-how of JVC and former NWC employees, but no one from either end made any effort in that direction, and if that proves anything is unwillingness from both sides.

verriker said:
Stevie said:
And yes, Ubisoft didn't care for the well-being of the M&M brand to search for the former devs, that much is clear, but the former devs didn't care for the well-being of M&M to search for Ubisoft either.


pretty bad equivalency I'd say with all respect, any onus is clearly on Ubisoft for that one, former devs are obviously not anywhere near being in the driving seat to even know who how and where to contact in 2003 when project is in preproduction,

not to mention it's not for us to conjure up an assumption whether they cared or not with very little info, for sure you can see Terry Ray was passionate and motivated to help even 15 years later when simply located and approached, also I can certainly cite for you one NWC team leader who was pitching his ideas and his knowledge to Ubisoft, and got nothing but a brick wall in response lol

I don't think that Paul Romero and Rob King going over to pathetically bang on the office door in Paris or not makes any difference (hint, they did not), Team Fabrice would anyway be obliged to research the series a bit, hire them and get the credibility and cheers if they do or get the moaning and bollocking if they choose some unrelated rando instead, same applies to rest of the team lol


The equivalency is accurate as far as saying that neither NWC nor Ubisoft searched for each other in pursuit of the franchise' best interest. That going against Ubisoft's bigger onus to do so is ultimately irrelevant to my point, as we know that Ubisoft is not a good example to take for anything other than bad practices. But if anything, given that NWC was far more level-headed and also the original creators, doubled down by their professed passion and motivation 15 years after (lol), one would've expected some more involvement with the franchise after it got sold to Ubisoft and after they were put on leave by 3DO. But as we know that didn't happen at all, things went cold as ice, so when I hear about how M&M was "their baby" and how the big bad Ubisoft deprived them from any access to their precious legacy, I just can't help but shake my head and put the situation into context for hopefully a better view.

Also, Paul and Rob were no NWC employees, they were freelance artists that weren't directly affected by the 3DO meltdown apart from losing a business opportunity, which then reappeared to them with Ubisoft, so there's a big difference there as they didn't had to go under, unlike NWC. And I am sure also it's conceivable that contacting Ubisoft to discuss business doesn't involve doing anything pathetic, unless we wanna meme and brush off everything having to do with Ubisoft as pathetic.

verriker said:
Stevie said:
History has shown us that what little of them was left was disbanded right after 3DO filed for bankruptcy, Christian's allegations about JVC being prepared to survive not only prove unconfirmed, but also untrue.


Christian interview actually from 2005 well after bankruptcy so nothing new under the sun there to retcon his comments as you suggest, note one does not generally relocate to a new studio in a new town at random intending to faff around and die some months later lol


Probably a poor choice of words from my part. All I wanted to say is that nothing came of any of what Christian thought was happening, NWC ceased to exist soon after relocating to Solvang and JVC started working for NCSoft the next year.
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AlHazin
AlHazin


Famous Hero
Tutto possibile
posted December 09, 2016 02:12 PM

Stevie said:
Also, no one denies that Ubisoft could have benefited from the know-how of JVC and former NWC employees, but no one from either end made any effort in that direction, and if that proves anything is unwillingness from both sides.


You said yourself Stevie that NWC wasn't in a position where it could act or demand anything, how could they have negociated anything with Ubisoft even if they wanted to while they were in so deep snow? I think Ubisoft's responsibility is way more important than NWC's, not to mention that every member of the team had to think about his imminent future rather than following an ideology of what was going to happen to Heroes series, especially when you're not paid for that. In this world, some friendships work with money. It's also that game industry, pragmatism, money, and in USA, usually money over "legacy", "creations" and stuff just as you said.

There have been many debates to try to determine the extent of each's reponsibility, fans are still debating about it, but that doesn't change facts. Ubisoft should have kept the same developping team that made the game a success, rather than arrogantly thinking that they could make everything better, in something they never undestood bro.
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Stevie
Stevie


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posted December 09, 2016 03:19 PM

Ubisoft's responsibility as the new owner of the franchise was not only higher than anyone else's, it was actually the only one there was. As such, their business sense should've dictated that they searched for the key figures of the previous developer, mainly for JVC who also happened to be the original creator of the series. They could've then tried to assemble a team around him with as many of the old employees as there were available and let him creatively direct the franchise with his know-how and experience. The fact that Ubisoft didn't do that just reveals who was buying the franchise in the first place, a bunch of now abundantly proven incompetent idiots that are now facing a company crisis of their own.

But even so, even given the complete absence of courtesy and common sense from Ubisoft, how hard could it have been for JVC himself to initiate a dialogue if he really was passionate about the M&M franchise and interested in its future development? All he had to do was pick up the phone and dial a number, or send an e-mail, or visit one of the 3 Ubisoft studios that were active right then and there in the USA. Whatever the answer to that might be (which is probably surrounded by a lot of circumstances) the fact that he didn't even express the slightest of intentions in that direction speaks volumes to me about his interest in the franchise at the time.
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