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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: HOMM3 "Native heroes" Tactics
Thread: HOMM3 "Native heroes" Tactics
Maag
Maag


Adventuring Hero
posted August 29, 2016 06:52 PM
Edited by Maag at 22:07, 23 Sep 2016.

This topic is for discussing about "NATIVE Heroes" tactics. In other words, every towns unique strategy.
Yes, there are town's characteristics already done in other topics (Library of content) - but they are all about certain towns, how to play them REGULAR. Which is most common style to play Heroes.

But now about native.
I would like to collect here every town's unique strategy. Played only native heroes and native creatures.


I start with Tower, which has always been my favourite town.

General characteristics and some major flaws
Tower is real challenge and tough to play, if against human. Against AI i find it one of the easiest towns to play on large maps (ofc. if map is rich).
Against human it is complex, because town buildings are expensive, startup is bad, when Cargs are not prebuilt, Mage tower is insanely expensive and upgrade to Titans is just out of this world.
Since town requires a lot of resources, higher than 130% could become a real challenge, esp. if map is poor in resources.
Also snow penalty is harsh like a swamp and snow is not rich terrain either.
In regular game it is pain to move angels and wyverns through snow and tower troops are slow.
Native game has it's own limitations however - u could choose only Tower heroes and that being said your main hero will be Neela if u could choose hero. Your second hero, would be ideal if Solmyr for support to Neela, or Cyra to get haste or Aine to increase in gold daily 350.
One more thing i state - pick Tower only, if map is rich in resources or at least moderate and start with 130%. Somehow playable with 160% if resources are plenty.
Tower triumphs on late phase if it could survive the beginning and middle phase. It is one of the crappiest towns to start with and survive first few weeks - but if u do and get your Titans and some good art's, u are on your way. That means Tower is being mainly played only on either L or XL maps.

So the native game with Tower starts with Neela (obviously, cuz she is only playable alchemist and only playable Tower might hero anyway) and one more (magic) hero. U should give all army u have to Neela, except Stone golems to speed u up. Other hero give couple gargoyles etc.
Stone golems leave to your town, as they can stay there and wait for upgrade to Iron Golems. They could serve as town protection, in case enemy closes in with some "stronger scout".

Starting phase and about resources
Since only start with 2 heroes, it is ESSENTIAL to think twice every move, esp. when u play Tower. U need all resources, esp. gems, a lot, but also some crystals and mercury, only sulfur need very few (a bit for Naga buildings only, later for mage guilds to level up there).
So try to pick up as much resources as can, ofc also gem mines or if u see gold mine, they are way to go. Also u need enough wood, ore.

Artifacts in early game
Other than resources, look for Boots of speed or Equestrian gloves, which give u speed on map.

Secondary skills
My wish is to have Tactics with Tower and ofc. Archery. Yes, it is said u don't get Archery easily with Alchemists, but with Neela i get it almost every time i play Tower
So the skills i go for Neela, are Archery, Tactics, Offense, Wisdom, Earth, Air OR Water.
Tower could use Water instead of Air imho, because Haste can be replaced by Prayer and Clone for Titans, esp. if u have Golden bow of Bow of the Sharpshooter is one on the most killer combos in Heroes imho. Plus mass dispel or Cure and other good stuff u can have, like Mass Forgetfulness, to clean up map from archers, why not.
But ofc haste is much easier to get than Prayer and u also will have DD, Fly, plus Air shield or Precision could be handy.
I have sometime even had Earth, Air, Water all 3, but then u lack of something else.
Most important ones imo are still Archery, Earth, on long games Wisdom too plus Tactics or Logistics.
Sometimes if i am offered Logistics (and not yet have Tactics), then i choose Log. instead of Tactics.

Buildup has been previously discussed a lot, i don't start with it here again, it is quite the same - depending on map size, whether map is opened and many other factors. If map is L or XL and not opened too much, however enemy comes to you on week 4 already then u probably should have picked another town.

About upgrades i think it is important to do M. Gremlin's and M. Genies first then also Nagas to N. Queens. Plus Stone Golems to Iron Golems to able to use them. If stones, they are just toooo slow.

General battle tactics - i would let Nagas or Naga Queens to do the hacking work if enemy gets close and let shooters - Mages and M. Gremlin's do their archery.
Maybe one thing i do differently, is about Giants - i don't upgrade them so fast to Titans, because it is very expensive. I'd rather use Naga Queens and Giants to do the might work for those who close in and use Iron Golems to protect my mages or if not take them to army, use 2 Master Genies - one as Power stack or spellcasting depending on situation, other just for casting.
The reason, why i use first Giants for some time, is simple. Dwelling cost only 5000 Gold - it is really small invest for level 7 and Giants are imho better than for example Hydras or Devils or Behemoths or B. Dragons. Mind spell immunity, health decent, attack 19 and damage 40-60! Only unupgraded Dragons (and Angels) are better, cuz they are faster and have magic resistance even better plus 2 hex attack bonus (or breathe mode). But try to get them so fast like Giants!
Later if game is in phase where i have more heroes and scouts and i see enemy has level7 upgraded, i consider my level 7 upgrade too, if i haven't done it yet. To upgrade to Titans, it is effective to visit Utopia for this - u get your gold for it. Or get gold from raiding Nagabanks or other places.

Best artifacts and combos for Tower in my opinion (not in order, just list) - Golden bow or Bow of the Sharpshooter, Shackles, Wizard's well, Angelic Alliance, Titan's Cuirass, Boots of Speed, Equestrian Gloves, Cape of Velocity, Spirit of Oppression (that goes for all towns anyway).

Major flaws in final battle
In native game Tower and Stronghold both share one VERY major flaw - that is speed of fastest creature, being 11.
Let me tell u directly - that not only sucks, it is even in my opinion one of the biggest problems with Tower and both Stronghold. Sometimes thinking of it i wish to pick another town. If u face any other town's army, what does block them to use tactics, bring all their army to middle and outrush u with either mass Prayer or mass Haste?
Only Orb of Inhibition (socalled "The Red Orb"). But u will not equip such thing with Tower, right? Town of magic... as it is.
That being said, in native game the best town is in my opinion Flux (but what the heck, Flux is best in almost all cases anyway). Rampart and Dungeon are well protected against such rush. If u start with Archangels and cast mass haste to your Castle troops, then next turn will be STILL Gold or Black dragon's probably and u can cast mass slow to your enemy and turn rush into your own favor.

Strenghts
3 shooters if u upgrade level 1 and 7.
Titan has 300 health which is highest among all creatures in all towns and shares it with BD's and AB's.
Titan has damage 40-60. If it deals 60, it is highest.
Also having no melee penalty and mind spell immunity, it is with attack and defense 24 a real killer, only needs more speed.
Now one more very important thing about shooters is, that unless surrounded directly by enemies, they actually have "No Enemy retaliation" ability granted, in these cases.
Particularly amazing is Bow of the Sharpshooter - equip it and your Titans shoot Black Dragons or other enemies just standing beside him, without any retaliation !!
Master Genies cast all kind of good spells, often Counterstrike or Haste, Prayer, Bless, Slayer, Shield etc, which is really really useful. Turning for example real tough Naga Queens into ultimate warmachines or why not, also improve Giants or Titans, depending where u are with your game.
Level 1 shooter can be really kickass unit because of high numbers and fact that u can surround them with fodder and lateron with Iron Golems etc.
Naga Queen in one of the main keys to Tower's success ofc.
Then Archmages, if u get them, good stats, no melee penalty again and deals full damage behind castle walls! No need to mention, that hero spells cost less.
Iron Golems are one of the best shooter guarding units, as they are in same group with elementals and undead - which also means basically that they are immune to mind spells like blind, berserk etc. Immune to Vampire lords drain too Even spell resistance 75% !! They are somewhat lower level tanks. Speed 5 is few ofc, but it's the same like Battle Dwarves for instance and 1 faster than Dendroid Soldiers.

Special buildings
Wall of knowledge could be really good in the beginning, too bad, u should not build it anywhere in the beginning, cuz u have other things to build and therefore it is rather pointless.
Watchtower could be real good if you are quite blocked in the beginning and can't go out much but in that case u are doomed later on anyway. In any other case it is utter BS, equals to empty slot.
I find artefact merchants real good against AI only, easy place to acquire good stuff, but against human - u just don't have money to buy it even. Or when u theoretically have, u have finished game before it or even u buy it out - u would not have money to buy out any USEFUL artifacts from there.
Now - Library. IF game goes long and your enemy didn't beat you down... then u could build up to level 4 or even 5 if u hope for fly, DD or Implo. Having 3 level 4 spells also increases chance to get Resurrection, Town Portal, Clone, Prayer, Berserk which are some of the best highlevel spells in game imo.
Library is in my opinion one of the best special buildings if map doesn't have spellscrolls, pandoras and if map is not full of Utopias like Jebus. In these cases u will get finally book of Air/Earth/Water/Fire anyway or Blue hat and these things kind of eliminate the "effect of Library".
Alltogether Tower special buildings are below average.


So that's it for now, just few of my thoughts. Feel free to describe any other town's native play and strategy elements, OR argue my theory on Tower

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b0rsuk
b0rsuk


Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
posted September 24, 2016 07:45 PM
Edited by b0rsuk at 19:48, 24 Sep 2016.

It is true that Water can be good for Tower, plus Titans and Naga Queens are uniquely suited to Clone spell. Titans are also a juicy target for Bless. BUT you don't really need Forgetfulness, YOU are the one doing the shooting. You can't lose a shooting fight with equal forces. And guess what, all other Tower units have narrow damage ranges: 1-2, 2-3, 4-5, 7-9, 13-16, 20-20!

Titans deal 50 damage on average, so average bonus from Bless is +20%.
With Expert Precision, that's 6*2.5 = +15% worst case, 6*5 = +30% best case (against lower levels). Furthermore, Gremlins and Mages will benefit much more from Precision than Bless. And bless isn't much good for the rest anyway. The flipside - other than Titans, your army is very Curse resistant! I'd rather cast Expert Weakness than Expert Bless with Tower.
Expert Slayer is 8 * 2.5 = +20% damage against level 7 typically, but can be as much as +40% for level7 vs level7, and you get that +20% even on non-shooters.

So when it comes to Water and Tower, the good spells are: basic Bless, Expert Clone, Expert Prayer, Expert Weakness, maaybe Expert Forgetfulness. Okay, Cure is nice to have. Really not that many! And the normal Bless doesn't require learning the school.

It's worth considering Fire. Expert Berserk, especially cast on fast units, can make enemy army chase its own tail, which Tower can REALLY capitalize on with its many shooters. Expert curse can be very nice. Expert Bloodlust is allright - none of your units has melee penalty. Expert Frenzy is good for Naga Queens, maybe golems, and would be terrific for Titans if they weren't immune. Expert Slayer - nice buff. Expert Sacrifice - you can restore your titans. You are fond of Giants, which is an interesting strategy, so for more melee-oriented Tower Fire should do well.

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Maag
Maag


Adventuring Hero
posted October 01, 2016 09:04 PM
Edited by Maag at 15:14, 02 Oct 2016.

b0rsuk said:
It is true that Water can be good for Tower, plus Titans and Naga Queens are uniquely suited to Clone spell. Titans are also a juicy target for Bless. BUT you don't really need Forgetfulness, YOU are the one doing the shooting. You can't lose a shooting fight with equal forces. And guess what, all other Tower units have narrow damage ranges: 1-2, 2-3, 4-5, 7-9, 13-16, 20-20!

Titans deal 50 damage on average, so average bonus from Bless is +20%.
With Expert Precision, that's 6*2.5 = +15% worst case, 6*5 = +30% best case (against lower levels). Furthermore, Gremlins and Mages will benefit much more from Precision than Bless. And bless isn't much good for the rest anyway. The flipside - other than Titans, your army is very Curse resistant! I'd rather cast Expert Weakness than Expert Bless with Tower.
Expert Slayer is 8 * 2.5 = +20% damage against level 7 typically, but can be as much as +40% for level7 vs level7, and you get that +20% even on non-shooters.

So when it comes to Water and Tower, the good spells are: basic Bless, Expert Clone, Expert Prayer, Expert Weakness, maaybe Expert Forgetfulness. Okay, Cure is nice to have. Really not that many! And the normal Bless doesn't require learning the school.

It's worth considering Fire. Expert Berserk, especially cast on fast units, can make enemy army chase its own tail, which Tower can REALLY capitalize on with its many shooters. Expert curse can be very nice. Expert Bloodlust is allright - none of your units has melee penalty. Expert Frenzy is good for Naga Queens, maybe golems, and would be terrific for Titans if they weren't immune. Expert Slayer - nice buff. Expert Sacrifice - you can restore your titans. You are fond of Giants, which is an interesting strategy, so for more melee-oriented Tower Fire should do well.


Your post is nice overview, but about spells mainly. Let's try to keep more in focus the native thing...

About Giants i really find they kick ass. Easily - heavy damage (40-60) + attack 19, it triumphs almost every other non-upgraded level 7 on attacking. Ofc angels are stronger and devils with their "No Enemy retaliation" and dragons are a lot faster. But still... health 160 is also ok. But one of the best things, "Mind spell immunity" makes giants like undead - no blind and berserk and other nasty spells and u can aswell resurrect giants. Speed 7 is only problem really. But what the heck, behemoths and hydras are even slower.
Where's the real catch? U can still get giants very fast, esp. on HotA. Also when level 2 prebuilt. Str. would get their behemoths even faster and maybe Fortr. their hydras. Then next is Tow. with giants. It is quick and damn cheap - 2 major advantages. Once u got giants and naga queens and master genies (my tactics is always hold one powerstack of mastergenies too, as numerous as possible), u launch on enemy asap or wait when enemy closes in. On snow u have advantage anyway.

I ofc prefer titans to giants, but u know, what it costs to build upg. Cloud Temple. But to make temple for giants, it is cheapest level 7 in whole game, costing only 5000 gold. It somehow compensates naga's and naga queens high cost imo, allowing u faster to upgr. to naga queens.

As i have stated before - Tower's main problems are slow fastest unit (this is main problem in native game, if u can't add phoenixes or azure dragons or archangels or other fastest units into your group to be able to start battle). In regular u probably just add archangel or phoenix stack instead master gremlins or gargoyles. At least you try to achieve it.
Other Tower's major downside is painful terrain penalty - this is more problem in the regular game, because u have to drag around angels, wyverns or maybe dragons or whatever other units, which are not Tower's.

Therefore this kind of quick tactics with Tower would work on native game imo and on medium map. L you already might think of titans if map is rich. XL titans for sure. The idea as i said - on native game, get cloud temple asap and castle, then upgr. to naga queens and master genies, mages could be unupgraded really, if u have them. Master gremlins should be also upgraded ofc if u use them. I would upgrade golems too into iron golems, if i play defensive and wait enemy arriving to my land. I would even use Obs. Gargoyles perhaps. It all depens on current situation, money etc.
But the priority in this kind of game - naga queens, master genies and giants ofc. As many as can. Gargoyles would be smart to replace small stack of mg's to cast spells to giants and n. queens. Powerstack of mg's could either cast spells or attack, depending on situation on battle. Imo. There is even way to use only mages as archers, use obs. gargoyles and replace m. gremlins with few m. genies for casting. Then u even don't need archery and could use that secondary skill for something else, for example tactics. In this strategy offense is a must, armorer also ofc. If u play this strategy on medium map, u also don't need wisdom perhaps and could take some other sec. skill. Logistics is also one of most important sec. skills for Tower, always. Or Pathfinding. It depens from map and some other factors, which would be better.


If anyone could argue or use any other way for Tower, please share your thoughts

If no, we could choose any other town type to start discussing it's native strategy.

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b0rsuk
b0rsuk


Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
posted October 03, 2016 01:40 AM
Edited by b0rsuk at 01:41, 03 Oct 2016.

Honestly I think Titans are rather underwhelming for the cost. They're at best on par with Black Dragons, but cost 1000 extra. What's the justification ?

Especially with their speed: Black Dragons, Archdevils, Archangels, Gold Dragons, Ghost Dragons can tie them up in the first turn. Fortress can sacrifice Dragon Flies if you feel it's important. Then what's the benefit of shooting ? Even if you do shoot, it will likely be half damage in the first turn.

And mind immunity is a bit of a downside, too: titans could really benefit from occasional Frenzy. I think Bloodlust is not considered mind spell, probably an oversight.

The whole town is a bit overrated. Archmages are not the powerful Archmages of Heroes2, who were tied for the 2nd best shooter with War Trolls. Their dwelling price doesn't justify the quality. Master Genies are a gimmick unit. You can split them into stacks and that's it. Then a single Dispel can thwart you. Master Genies are not Rocs.

Neither Golems nor Gargoyles can hit hard. They may die last simply because there are more dangerous targets to kill off first. They just tend to be ignored. You get 3 units immune to mind spells and this has drawbacks too.

Overall I think it's a hard town to love in Heroes3. I even preferred the H2 music (both of them) and the orange color of cliffs.

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted October 03, 2016 07:34 AM
Edited by NimoStar at 07:36, 03 Oct 2016.

The enemy Dispel, if on expert will wipe out all of his beneficial spells too. Also you are saying the enemy will waste his turn's spell in countering what your creature can do. This isn't minor. If not on Expert, you can have multiple Master Genies stacks and he only one hero.

The shooting ability of Titans is useful to NOT get them in the middle of enemy creatures. Other H7 creatures have to come to your place to attack you, making them easy to destroy by ganging up on them.

Also, with tactics, you can use Gargoyles and Golems to protect your shooters.
Mages make all of your spells cheaper. With Tower heroes this is not so important because of high knowledge, but with other classes, this is very important.

Bloodlust is not a mind spell because it affects the blood

I still think Solmyr is one of the best starting heros, if only to clear the map and gain large bonuses early on. Every opportunity should be used to increase his Power stat and/or get him Air Magic.

However nice in early game, in the late game it is frustrating how Gremlins always die for nothing. Possibly strategies are true to replace them with extra Genies.

Also, Snow is also hard to travel for your opponents. You can use this to your advantage much like Fortress in swamp.
____________
https://www.moddb.com/mods/greatest-mod

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b0rsuk
b0rsuk


Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
posted October 03, 2016 11:12 AM

Tower has a number of very questionable design decisions:
- overpriced titans
- worst moat (landmines)
- Lookout tower: spend resources to reveal terrain you will soon reveal anyway!
- Wall of Knowledge, because Knowledge is a bad stat
- +15 Knowledge from the grail building ?? Battles don't become longer in the late game.
- Skyship reveals the whole map ? Really ? You will have pretty much the entire map by the time, and if you can't access those far away areas you probably can't affect them too.
- heroes focusing on bad skills, like Learning, Scholar, Mysticism, Sorcery...

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AlHazin
AlHazin


Promising
Supreme Hero
النور
posted October 03, 2016 05:20 PM

In the original game, tower landmines were the only moat that dealt damage, and stronghold didn't even have one, I guess now it could be the worst, it does more damage than others, but dissapears.

A non-that-useful use for the lookout tower is that it counters the cover effects by clearing terrain if a necropolis is nearby with a cover of darkness built. Well, that situation is kind of very rare.

The +2 morale of castle grail isn't better too. Having the map revealed is always nice. Also the library is handy.

The tower remains expensive, if I remerber well, the most.

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Maag
Maag


Adventuring Hero
posted October 03, 2016 09:34 PM
Edited by Maag at 22:18, 03 Oct 2016.

Seems the thread still continues with Tower For some time. But ok.

If i would pick the biggest problem for Tower in HotA, where it is not so expensive town anymore, i would say "slow fastest creature".
Original H3 game Tower was the most expensive. That's for sure. In HotA it is really arguably cheaper.
At the moment T. shares this place with Inferno, imho. Builds costs.

About heroes now. For me it has been total mystery. Those statistic columns, which present secondary skills probabilities. It is said Tower heroes both alchemists and wizards would easily get "learning", "mysticism", "scholar", "eagle eye" etc.
I have played most of my H3 games with Tower and most of them with Neela. I can't remember almost any game, where i had to choose useless sec. skill. I often get "archery", "tactics" even, "offense" also. "Wisdom" for sure. "Air" and "earth". "Water magic" also present often. "Logistics" not too often really. But when offered, i would pick that too.
Yet so praised Crag Hack. Whenever i play Stronghold (and i like to play them too), i always pick Hack. But annoyingly often i am offered "estates", "scouting", "luck". Those 3. But i have even been offered "eagle eye", "learning" (sic!) and other such stuff, totally useless. He starts with one sec. skill. U get it fast to expert and therefore u have to hope for good luck with coming secondary skills, which i often don't have with him. Plus the fact that Stronghold troops drop dead like flies. But that's another topic.

Maybe the dog is buried here - Neela has 2 starting skills. "Armorer" and "scholar". To pump both up to expert and not get any new skill offering and then have to choose between 2 bad sec. skills - i would say this seems unlikely, really unlikely to happen. So, means before u pump "armorer" and "scholar" up, u are almost certainly offered several sec. skills. How high is probability, that you would really get offered those useless skills continuously? Let's say 4-5 times. Almost certainly that would not happen.
What am i saying then? U have really coming useless skill, then don't pick it, pump up "armorer" and "scholar".
If u are offered any of them - "offense", "archery", "tactics", "logistics", "pathfinding", "wisdom", "earth", "air", "water", then choose them - that way u make sure u would get only efficient skills.
But ofc. there will be luck factor too always - u didn't take water, but later on u discover that u have clone on level 4. That is something u could not get from any hero also. Plus it is spell, which is most beneficial for Tower town.

One more thing my brain could not compete - why is such a hype around Solmyr. Yes, he is great, one of the greatest SECONDARY hero for your team. Give him your army in the beginning to clear out some map. Let Neela fight more tough creatures which give her more exp. so to develop her fast. They are great team together - two marvelous genies

But let's face it - in the endfight Neela is better than Solmyr by landslide.

Oh, and about "scholar". Well, native game quite much ruins scholar's effect. Yes, if u see Cyra, Tower hero, to get haste, it is ok to hire her. But if u see Sandro to get slow, no way - becuse he is from Necropolis. If u see Alamar to get resurrection, the same.
But in regular game, "scholar" for Tower is really good skill, even ok for main imho. U see whatever hero with good level 4 spell. You hire him/her and just get that spell for yourself. U could get this way resurrection, prayer, chain lightning, meteor shower for example. Or why not, even level 1 spells, like haste, slow. So u get much more chance to learn those so crucial spells!


For some kind of conclusion, could we say Tower is more like defensive town, like Fortress in their swamp, "waiting" for enemy to close in or should it be more offensive, to launch fast attack?
What anyone think of it?
Since their terrain penalty slows enemy down (without pathfinding) and gives all Tower creatures +1 speed, i would say it is better to defend with them, if game situation allows it. Esp. since Neela has also armorer specialty, not offense.

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted October 04, 2016 10:21 PM

The Scholar is actually a good thing in large maps, long games with lots of mage guilds (and/or towns). This way you can teach your heroes all the spells (except max level) without them having to visit all the castles. And in large maps you WILL need several heroes, if only to defend the towns from enemies, recruit, etc. Specially if you don't have town portal/expert earth magic to choose the destination (or it is banned)

As for the Lookout Tower, doesn't it also remove the cover from Sphinx? ("cover of darkness" from the map) ? Has anyone tested that? That is probably another use.
If you build the lookout tower early in the game it could be an advantage to see areas behind your castle or on the other side of shores which you coudn't approach until much later in the game because of mountains, forests, border guards, etc. (this works even in Random maps because of their layout)

Even if the Skyship specials aren't necessarily the best (though I use it for map testing : P ), the +5000 gold per day is sure to be more useful to Tower than to other towns - with both expensive creatures, buildings and artifact merchants, it is sure to bring its full potential. Cheap towns don't gain much from the extra gold because Capitol suffices for them.
____________
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Maag
Maag


Adventuring Hero
posted October 04, 2016 10:38 PM
Edited by Maag at 22:45, 04 Oct 2016.

NimoStar said:
The Scholar is actually a good thing in large maps, long games with lots of mage guilds (and/or towns). This way you can teach your heroes all the spells (except max level) without them having to visit all the castles. And in large maps you WILL need several heroes, if only to defend the towns from enemies, recruit, etc. Specially if you don't have town portal/expert earth magic to choose the destination (or it is banned)

As for the Lookout Tower, doesn't it also remove the cover from Sphinx? ("cover of darkness" from the map) ? Has anyone tested that? That is probably another use.
If you build the lookout tower early in the game it could be an advantage to see areas behind your castle or on the other side of shores which you coudn't approach until much later in the game because of mountains, forests, border guards, etc. (this works even in Random maps because of their layout)

Even if the Skyship specials aren't necessarily the best (though I use it for map testing : P ), the +5000 gold per day is sure to be more useful to Tower than to other towns - with both expensive creatures, buildings and artifact merchants, it is sure to bring its full potential. Cheap towns don't gain much from the extra gold because Capitol suffices for them.


Yes. Interesting point, but according my experience with Tower, by the time i reach grail... when i reach it, it doesn't give me much advantage, except additional creature growth and money. Which is killer thing to have for ANY town imo. If u get grail early game for example when it lies near your town, then u probably won the game anyway, nomatter which town u play. If later, it gives also massive boost. Those other bonuses with it, are rather minor imo. Except one town's... to be explained next
I personally like the most either Dungeon's spell power boost or Stronghold's attack skill, when defending against a siege. It's basically like "mass frenzy"
Ok, just kidding. Flux's grail is better than all others combined - u get all spells in game. That means for Flux 101% game win if they get grail. Phoenixes, other units which immune to fire, there were 3-4 of them even. Cast arma and fly over your enemies I even don't mention DD, fly, expert t. portal etc.

Btw.
Am i the only one, who loves Neela? C'mon guys, she's not that bad, even though she's alchemist

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted October 05, 2016 10:54 AM

Well, I personally like Rissa. Yummy mercury! (as a secondary hero)
Although Mysticism is one of the worst skills in the game at any rate, form or stage...

As for the Grail, yes, all that is true - however grail is far from being an instant win (except maybe for conflux). Remember energy spent on the grail (Obelisks, traveling, digging) is energy you didn't spend on other things, and an opponent can have more castles or better heroes.

Here is where I think Tower grail is different from the ones of cheap towns... it makes you really be able to use the boost to the maximum, because all that gold could not be used by Rampart, Fortress or Stronghold effectively, to name a few examples. In Tower you can use it to recruit and upgrade a surplus of expensive reserve creatures a get a good "edge" on the late game, even against an otherwise better positioned opponent. And you get too see all of his lands and what he does all the time too.
____________
https://www.moddb.com/mods/greatest-mod

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yogi
yogi


Promising
Famous Hero
of picnics
posted October 05, 2016 11:35 AM

NimoStar said:
Well, I personally like Rissa. Yummy mercury! (as a secondary hero)

same
+1
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Maag
Maag


Adventuring Hero
posted October 05, 2016 07:01 PM
Edited by Maag at 20:11, 05 Oct 2016.

NimoStar said:
Well, I personally like Rissa. Yummy mercury! (as a secondary hero)
Although Mysticism is one of the worst skills in the game at any rate, form or stage...

As for the Grail, yes, all that is true - however grail is far from being an instant win (except maybe for conflux). Remember energy spent on the grail (Obelisks, traveling, digging) is energy you didn't spend on other things, and an opponent can have more castles or better heroes.

Here is where I think Tower grail is different from the ones of cheap towns... it makes you really be able to use the boost to the maximum, because all that gold could not be used by Rampart, Fortress or Stronghold effectively, to name a few examples. In Tower you can use it to recruit and upgrade a surplus of expensive reserve creatures a get a good "edge" on the late game, even against an otherwise better positioned opponent. And you get too see all of his lands and what he does all the time too.


About Neela vs Rissa. It is like comparing Mephala vs. Calid. One gives armorer, other has resource bonus. They both are good for something. Types like Neela or Mephala are good for main, but those other ones for scout. Tower has not much to do with mercury, except upgrade mage guild and/or for some dwellings. The guy from Stronghold which provides gems, that could be useful, but not in native game

About grail in native game - since chaining will more take place later (u start with 2 heros, max. 3). Every week adds 1 more. Therefore you just don't have in the beginning really "hero resource" for digging and guessing, where it might be

Regular game is easier to dealing with grail imo.


Anyone wishes to share ideas, how to play native game with Rampart?


OK, i make my try here. Not so long and detailed, while i did with Tower.
Rampart is one of the best town to start with. Imo Rangers are also the best heroes in game together with Barbarians. They just have so good skills coming and they are granted Archery, which makes one of the best 3 level creature even better
Plenty of secondary skill specialties - Armorer, Logistics, Resistance. They are all useful.
Perhaps for native game the best of them is Kyrre with her Logistics. That would compensate a littlebit for having less heroes in first weeks.
There is for me at least always dilemma, what to do with 2 slow creatures in Rampart. I can leave B. Dwarves out, only level 2. But Dendroid Soldiers are level 5, large in numbers and their ability is stunning. Yet speed 4 (5 on grass).
Or should i go without them both most of time and only bring them with scout if some tougher battles are ahead? What do anyone think of it?

I don't start here to make theory on buildup or when should do which upgrade. That has been discussed before a lot.
Would like to mention only, that sometimes i like to upgrade Homestead too in week 1. If resources are plenty and i won't have problems to build up until level 6 + Citadel or even Castle.

Spells with Rampart. Since whole town kind of "revolves around Grand Elves", then i guess resurrect and mass slow are a must, haste aswell ofc. Could use clone on GE's, but that doesn't require water. Like usually, earth is a must, most important and air too really needed. Blind could be handy. Unicorns already have chance for it. If you cast it too, enemy without water could be in trouble

In the beginning, since in native game u can't take any other faction troops or from other heroes, then u must pay extra attention to your Elves and Centaurs and try your best do NOT waste them. That takes extra time to think your moves over and is a real challenge. If u could save Centaur Captains, they add later value to your army. Since they are fast and nice stats plus 2 hex. Handy for protecting GE's.

Rampart is a town, which could also think of using Recanter's Cloak imo. Especially if your enemy is Dungeon. High spellpower and could avoid Implosion, Meteor shower etc. Of there is always chance for Lightning bolt, which couldde devastating to GE's also. But there is another artifact against it, which u could put in the neck. I forgot, what was the name of it. Chance to find them both is not so high also. So you better take Resistance secondary skill and try to find "Boots of Resistance" or other artifacts too, which add magic's resistance.
Some more alternative ways to protect your GE's - Anti-magic spell. You have to wste spell for it, but perhaps sometimes it could be worth it?
Rampart's endgame issue is also Gold Dragon problem with Implosion. U have to think of it, what would help. Here Anti-magic spell would not be an option. Need either Resistance skill (plus these artefacts if u can get) or better equip Recanter's cloak?
Or are there other ideas?

One more question - how anyone think of Poor Jebus template for Rampart? Suitable for Rampart or not?

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AlHazin
AlHazin


Promising
Supreme Hero
النور
posted October 05, 2016 08:51 PM

Maag said:
The guy from Stronghold which provides gems, that could be useful, but not in native game


His name's Saurug the Battlemage lol.

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Maag
Maag


Adventuring Hero
posted October 05, 2016 10:07 PM

AlHazin said:
Maag said:
The guy from Stronghold which provides gems, that could be useful, but not in native game


His name's Saurug the Battlemage lol.


Yeah, that's the guy!

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