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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Alternate H3 MP: ONLY Conflux and Necropolis (which is better?)
Thread: Alternate H3 MP: ONLY Conflux and Necropolis (which is better?)
NimoStar
NimoStar


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted October 08, 2016 09:43 AM

Alternate H3 MP: ONLY Conflux and Necropolis (which is better?)

Imagine for a moment that all other factions don't exist.

We live in a "reverse universe", where too weak factions were banned and now we have a multiplayer Heroes 3 scene which *only* allows Necropolis and Conflux as the towns.

The community is divided as the "light vs darkness" aspect of the epic fight : P

Which would win?
Which one would dominate?
The most chosen?
The better one for noobs and for experts? Will they be the same?
Would banned spells affect the outcome of the confrontation?
Yes, no, and why for each?

I will give my own opinions on this matter later.
I want to hear all voices
; )

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AlHazin
AlHazin


Promising
Supreme Hero
النور
posted October 08, 2016 09:52 AM

Necropolis army's composition of undeads makes them immune to a bunch of spells and morale, but vulnerable to others which can be pretty deadly, while Conflux units have the same neutral morale and are mostly unaffected by the same magic stuff and most undeads' specials (vampires...). They have more speed, and can counter the very large numbers of skeletons with the phoenixes. In the magic departement, they overpower them too.

So, although it pains me to say it, but Conflux dominates Necropolis, and probably is the best town in H3.

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LizardWarrior
LizardWarrior


Honorable
Legendary Hero
posted October 08, 2016 10:02 AM

NimoStar said:

Which would win?


Necropolis on big maps and conflux on small maps. Necro needs more time to develop a giant ball of skeletons, so early it is quite vulnerable against conflux, especially since vampire lords won't be able to drain life from elementals. If the map is big enough and rich in guards, then Necropolis will gain the upper hand and just one-shoot most conflux stacks. Let's not forget that the Cloak of the Undead King is relatively easy to obtain on XLL maps.

NimoStar said:

Which one would dominate?


Just like I said, Necro on big maps and conflux on small maps when it can attack necro early.

NimoStar said:

The most chosen?


I would chose Necropolis more

NimoStar said:

The better one for noobs and for experts? Will they be the same?


I'd say for beginners, conflux is easier to play, since it just gives you some pretty powerful creatures from the start, you get 2 early shooters which are top tier if not the best among their level, high mobility and even 2 starting growth for firebirds. Necropolis is more about creeping and troop conservation, they also got only 1 shooter which is level 5 and you won't recruit liches early because you want to prioritize vampire lords first, chaining is also more important if you want a network of skelly makers.

NimoStar said:

Would banned spells affect the outcome of the confrontation?
Yes, no, and why for each?


If you get Conflux's grail you get all spells, so I'd say that's rather OP, well also necro's grail is quite OP as well as it increases necromancy by a lot. Artifacts on the other hand, Cloak of the Undead King is extremely OP if the necro player gets it, if that happens it's just a matter of time before conflux is drowned in a sea of liches. As if some spells are gonna get banned, well I guess it's the standard pack of fly/dimension door.

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted October 10, 2016 11:54 AM

My opinion, too, is that Conflux would win, although in my original consideration I had not taken into accoun the Cloak of the Undead King which could be gotten with Artifact Merchants parts too..

I think that is that artifact is banned, Conflux late-game chances increase significantly.

As for the skeletons, Conflux could still use some "dragogeddon" tactics with Phoenixes.
Go to combat, Armageddon, and then surrender/retreat. Even if it's just 1 phoenix, the necromancer can do nothing about it.
The grail is certain to contain Armageddon as just all other non-banned spells, and as such, Conflux has a definitive upper hand for spellcasting. Skeletons are slow, so unless they are defending the castle (which eventually gets trashed too)

Even unstoppable numbers of skeletons would make for slower heroes than Phoenix ones, compounding Conflux's tactical advantage.
Magic Elementals, Fire elementals, and Earth Elementals are also immune...
This Armageddon combo can also make the "ferry" heroes that carry the skeletons suffer tremedous damage and decimate Necropolis one by one, disrupting it's army communication.

As for the spell damage, if Conflux considers it important, it only needs to use the university. This will give it advantage in all magics... town portal (if not banned), clone, resurrection, mass haste, mass slow, you name it.

So, there are a lot of complex factors in play.

All in all, the more banned spells, the better the chances of Necro get.
But not even an Skeleton deathball is a certain guarantee of winning the game. Even if late-game they have the biggest armies by far, they will struggle against Conflux flexibility and speed.

So, while Conflux will have to play guerrilla warfare, it actually ends up having the upper hand to me in both configurations - even late game, if not for the Cloak of the Undead King

Yet, even with the Cloak in play, they can try to counter it with Armageddon's Blade, Wizard's Well, Angelic Alliance, Statue of Legion, Power of the Dragon Father, or other such artifacts - for this purpose, Conflux has Artifact Merchants inside unlike Necropolis, so it will be easier for them on the long run even if the artifacts themselves are harder to assemble.

We are talking about an epic-level confrontation here
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LizardWarrior
LizardWarrior


Honorable
Legendary Hero
posted October 10, 2016 02:53 PM

NimoStar said:

As for the skeletons, Conflux could still use some "dragogeddon" tactics with Phoenixes.
Go to combat, Armageddon, and then surrender/retreat. Even if it's just 1 phoenix, the necromancer can do nothing about it.
The grail is certain to contain Armageddon as just all other non-banned spells, and as such, Conflux has a definitive upper hand for spellcasting. Skeletons are slow, so unless they are defending the castle (which eventually gets trashed too)


I disagree, firstly we get to the Might>Magic problem here, direct damage spells, even Armageddon, scale incredibly bad compared with the army growths, let alone that of Necropolis. Here's a video I made with lvl 100 Sandro with 99 SP casting Armageddon, the damage is simply negligible compared to the stacks a Might hero would posses at that time. Also from that test I have observed that neither the fire orb nor sorcery impact Armageddon, which is a minus for sure. By the time you get 99 Spellpower (and if you even got enough fights/boosts to get 99 SP on the map), the skellie ball will be so big that armageddon would just tickle them.


NimoStar said:

Even unstoppable numbers of skeletons would make for slower heroes than Phoenix ones, compounding Conflux's tactical advantage.
Magic Elementals, Fire elementals, and Earth Elementals are also immune...
This Armageddon combo can also make the "ferry" heroes that carry the skeletons suffer tremedous damage and decimate Necropolis one by one, disrupting it's army communication.


I'm pretty sure that earth elemental, aren't immune to Armageddon, only to lighting and mind spells. Now the real problem is that in a XXL map it will take some time to reach your opponent and by the time you do, the main necro hero will already have tons of skellies harvested from safe zones, in smaller maps you indeed got the upper hand, as you can harass necro secondaries with only magic arrow/lighting bolt.

NimoStar said:

As for the spell damage, if Conflux considers it important, it only needs to use the university. This will give it advantage in all magics... town portal (if not banned), clone, resurrection, mass haste, mass slow, you name it.

So, there are a lot of complex factors in play.

All in all, the more banned spells, the better the chances of Necro get.


Conflux has the advantage of having earth magic in university, which would guarantee you getting expert slow on every hero. The thing is that not a lot of spells affect necro, and as I said before, damage spells don't scale so well with army growth, in a XXL map, even with all spells on, Necro would still dominate. Don't forget that Necropolis has a decent mage guild too and will benefit from the same spells Conflux will.

NimoStar said:

But not even an Skeleton deathball is a certain guarantee of winning the game. Even if late-game they have the biggest armies by far, they will struggle against Conflux flexibility and speed.


Maybe not guarantee, but it will tremendously help nonetheless, while it's true that Necro is a lot slower than Conflux, in an XXL map it will catch up due to having a power-stack early and making trips back to town for reinforcements less important. If Conflux can't interrupt the skellie machine early, which is impossible in XXL maps, then Necropolis will win in most cases.

NimoStar said:

So, while Conflux will have to play guerrilla warfare, it actually ends up having the upper hand to me in both configurations - even late game, if not for the Cloak of the Undead King


Disagree, you will still need superior force rather than hit-and-run to beat Necropolis, which will be nearly impossible in an XXL map end-game. While you can harass carries, the main hero would still have a great ball of skeletons to roll at you, that's not even taking into consideration other stacks he has. Casting lighting bolt or other such spells instead of mass slow at the beginning of the battle, will be a grave mistake. Even with slow, a necro hero can still TP his powerstack to one-shoot important creatures you have, or you may not even get the first round as he can very well conquer one of your towns (or a neutral one) and get phoenixes.

NimoStar said:

Yet, even with the Cloak in play, they can try to counter it with Armageddon's Blade, Wizard's Well, Angelic Alliance, Statue of Legion, Power of the Dragon Father, or other such artifacts - for this purpose, Conflux has Artifact Merchants inside unlike Necropolis, so it will be easier for them on the long run even if the artifacts themselves are harder to assemble.


All combo artifacts which are way harder to get than the Cloak, plus you are talking about multiple combos and just as well, the Necro player can get them too or get Armor of the Damned which will pretty much ruin your chance to get the first turn and gives him an opportunity to attack your army which is weakened by curses. Let's not forget that due to its Necromancy skill and skelly powerstack, Necropolis will be able to attack utopias earlier, thus getting combo artifacts earlier.
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NimoStar
NimoStar


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted October 11, 2016 03:33 AM
Edited by NimoStar at 03:35, 11 Oct 2016.

Quote:
I'm pretty sure that earth elemental, aren't immune to Armageddon, only to lighting and mind spells.


Magma elementals (Earth upgrade) are indeed immune to Armageddon.
http://heroes.thelazy.net/wiki/Armageddon

Quote:
Don't forget that Necropolis has a decent mage guild too and will benefit from the same spells Conflux will.


To a degree, but Necro doesn't have either magic university, heroes staring with Magic skills of any school (conflux can choose all), or the spell-grail. So while they can still get many spells, it's not remotely the same.

Quote:
I disagree, firstly we get to the Might>Magic problem here, direct damage spells, even Armageddon, scale incredibly bad compared with the army growths


yes, I know that, also fire magic only increases the Armageddon base damage and not %
But that isn't really the point, the point is that using hit and run tactics, you can slowly (and not so slowly) degrade Necropolis army without even having to fight it.

Also, having spellcasting doesn't detract from being a Might hero, remember it's Conflux we are speaking here.

1 phoenix + spellcasting hero = Run/Surrender and get back again on nearest town, repeat as many times as needed in the same turn even if you reach it. What's stopping you? Money? You kill way more than 2500 gold every time.
This way you can also slowly lead them to ruin.



Quote:
While you can harass carries, the main hero would still have a great ball of skeletons to roll at you, that's not even taking into consideration other stacks he has


The main ball of skeletons cannot be regenerated as it comes only from the map monsters. If the map is so big, you have a lot of encounters to slowly kill it (you could even use Implosion instead of Armageddon if it is the only thing left)

Once you degrade the strenght of the main skeleton ball (either by spells or other ways - for example, you could clone-attack a Phoenix stack or other such combat-crossing creature for a much higher damage than any spell, but it has the disadvantage of giving your opponent a turn)

Not only that, but your Elemental (5 of 7 creatures) stacks cannot be raised by necromancy, nor they can be drained by vampires.

You also forget one thing about spellcasting superiority: Summoning elemental stacks. Sure, they are still not so powerful compared to big armies, but necro will only have ONE powerstack, and you can keep summoning elementals every turn indefinitely while he struggles to kill them (they are also immune to many spells and abilities). You can also easily have super extra spell points from Intelligence, artifacts and map objects.

Quote:
he can very well conquer one of your towns (or a neutral one) and get phoenixes.

Maybe but they will have -2 morale from undead creatures, so unless he dedicates himself to getting it up, he will still be disadvantaged and have probabilities of losing even his 50% chance of first turn.

Plus they will probably be a much smaller force, mening you can kill them.

Quote:
All combo artifacts which are way harder to get than the Cloak, plus you are talking about multiple combos and just as well, the Necro player can get them too or get Armor of the Damned which will pretty much ruin your chance to get the first turn and gives him an opportunity to attack your army which is weakened by curses.


First, I don't think all are so difficult. And if we are speaking big, big maps you underestimate the power of having all the Artifact Merchants artifacts every month. Many of the pieces of combination artifacts can be gotten from there.

And this is not even speaking about the possibility (no, the probability) that CONFLUX can get the Cloak of the Undead King first because of artifact merchants and faster stronger creatures, and hire a Necropolis hero (university-trained in magic easily, and booted up on other bought and found artifacts) to use it. (or just get Necromancy, but I think it's disabled from witch huts as default)

So, if I think about that, Necro doesn't stand much of a chance : P
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Revolut1oN
Revolut1oN


Famous Hero
posted October 11, 2016 09:36 AM

99% of things you have written in last post make no sence. You really think when facing an army of 10k skeletons anybody would waste time to summon 50 elementals?

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted October 11, 2016 09:57 AM
Edited by Salamandre at 10:52, 11 Oct 2016.

Hit and run is much harder in Heroes 3 then H2, and considering that the duel is on something larger than just medium map, there are very big chances that the necro finds and uses all the counters against hit and run. In reality, if you want to win against necro, you must do it fast, before it can grow. Once it outnumbers your forces by 10-50 times, is over and you have nowhere to hide. Don't forget that he will have access to same spells as you, he can ALSO find a conflux and recruit phoenixes (bye bye your speed advantage), he can use resistance skill, resistance artifacts, shackles of war are easy to find, if he attacks your town he can use spells against fire damage, or recanter's cloak, in all there is a huge gamble to take in consideration.

All this was most used tactic in Heroes 2 and it worked most of time. Not anymore, and this is why I consider Heroes 3 so much superior, among many other things.

Then it greatly depends on players skills, someone not experienced with necro will have a hard time farming skeletons and in same time match conflux's speed on map. Necro is the hardest race to play early game.

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b0rsuk
b0rsuk


Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
posted October 13, 2016 05:08 PM
Edited by b0rsuk at 17:16, 13 Oct 2016.

So if Vampire Lords aren't much use against Conflux, why not build Liches early ?

Who's better on a large map - Necropolis, or demon-farming Inferno ?

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AlHazin
AlHazin


Promising
Supreme Hero
النور
posted October 13, 2016 05:56 PM

Necro, for sure. On very large maps necromancy will always grant you much more skeletons than demon farming will give you demons, unless the grail comes into play especially if you got multiple infernos. And necromancy requires less skill than demon farming.

However, inferno is better than necropolis in early game and relatively good in ressource-scarce maps compared to necropolis.

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b0rsuk
b0rsuk


Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
posted October 15, 2016 10:30 AM

Hah if you have multiple Infernos and a Grail, I wouldn't bet any money on Inferno facing Necropolis. That would actually work against you.

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Maag
Maag


Adventuring Hero
posted October 15, 2016 12:45 PM

AlHazin said:
Necro, for sure. On very large maps necromancy will always grant you much more skeletons than demon farming will give you demons, unless the grail comes into play especially if you got multiple infernos. And necromancy requires less skill than demon farming.

However, inferno is better than necropolis in early game and relatively good in ressource-scarce maps compared to necropolis.


As far as i know, Inferno is one hell of expensive town and in multiplayer game considered weakest together with Tower.

I never liked Necro, but those times i have played with them, even in the beginning they are not so bad i would say. You start to collect skellies immediately and it is the only town, where "level 1 dropping dead" all the time isn't such large scale problem. Due to all the time regaining them.

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