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Heroes Community > Heroes 4 - Lands of Axeoth > Thread: Fog of war
Thread: Fog of war [ This thread is 2 pages long: (1) 2 ]
Ninja
Ninja

Tavern Dweller
posted April 12, 2002 11:46 PM

Fog of war

I hate fog of war in homm4 !!!!!!
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malkia
malkia


Promising
Famous Hero
posted April 13, 2002 12:43 AM

Quote:
I hate fog of war in homm4 !!!!!!


that's me too... Also this is another reason for making turn-based hotseat turns to take more.... Coz now you have the ability to use little armies of one dwarfs to clear the fog of war for you.... And you have to do it - otherwise you'll be playing not so good...

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HappyPike
HappyPike


Known Hero
Pikeman
posted April 13, 2002 12:06 PM

hehe, fog of war adds another level of depth to the game. It's not too bad... I actually like it.  
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Ninja
Ninja

Tavern Dweller
posted April 13, 2002 11:24 PM

Yes, but think about it you will have to go (with a smaler unit or hero)in the same area to see if somethig has changed
In a multiplayer game this will take a lot more per turn and on net time is money.
There shoud be a spell that clear fog of war for a day or more or it would be nice for me to put some reminders (like flags)in some important places and of course you could see around this flags. This 2 things will make FOW less painfull.
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promenad
promenad


Hired Hero
posted April 14, 2002 03:29 AM

I kinda like it too, the only thing that bothers me is that the monster stacks I've discovered doesn't stay visible. This forces me to remember what monsters are were, something I just can't do after a while. It also messes up moving through 'un-cleared' areas using the moving path the computer gives me. Of course, if you still remember where the monsters are a right click on that spot will give you the same info as if you acctually could see them.
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Jenova
Jenova


Famous Hero
posted April 14, 2002 03:41 AM

Yes I hate it too. I guess it's to make the Scouting skill more useful.

One definate change that is needed is when you go to an observation tower, it should reveal past the fog of war as well. It makes sense doesn't it? You go up and reveal a large land around you, you should be able to see enemy units as well instead of just seeing the terrain (covered by fog). The fog should cover back up next turn.

Telescope items are actually useful now.. If you have a telescope with a Seer who has GM scouting, you can reveal so much when you move.

But my opinion is that fog of war in a TBS sucks. At least in a RTS you can go and uncover the fog whenever you need to (and typically have specialty air units that unveil large amounts of fog, suited for scouting), whereas in a TBS movement is limited, as well as army numbers. You can't just go and uncover the fog when you want to because that requires movement, which is limited. Are there spells which have a Far Sight effect?

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Cat
Cat


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Gonna Get Dirrty...
posted April 14, 2002 05:51 AM

I'm used to the FoW

In games like Baldur's Gate, but I'm not sure it really fits in a game like HoMM4.  In Baldur's Gate, you do not really need to know what is going on in the 'fogged' areas, but in the HoMM games it is vital that you do.

One claim is that FoW makes it more realistic.  I do not believe so, as in RL medieval warfare, if you really want to nitpick, aproaching armies would always be visible from a castle several days in advance (If you live in this hell hole you learn these things).  Therefore the radius around the castle at least should be increased....?

It does make scouting more nescessary, indeed, but this in itself is a minor annoyance, I think, scouting not exactly being my skill of choice for, say, a druid.  I think the FoW feature, like the wandering monsters, should have been optional.  Malkia is right... multiplayer games will take forever due to moving your 1 sprite armies (I have 16 of these on one map) everywhere.  If you have to build as well, and buy creatures... turns could become unbearably long.  I doubt my machine would apreciate this, as it crashes often enough without the help of an everlasting opponant turn.
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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted April 14, 2002 06:02 AM

Quote:
One definate change that is needed is when you go to an observation tower, it should reveal past the fog of war as well. It makes sense doesn't it?


Yes. Very true. The way it works now (shading before you have a chance to see anything is ridiculous!) After all the AI consumes some movement points for entering the tower so the least you should get is a window which will remove the Fog until you've had a chance to survey the revealed landscape. But removing it at end of turn is better.

Also The "Eyes of the Magi" should also work like this.


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Ninja
Ninja

Tavern Dweller
posted April 14, 2002 07:06 AM

I think FoW should have been optional.
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Pure_Chaos
Pure_Chaos


Bad-mannered
Known Hero
Destroyer of Morons
posted April 14, 2002 08:26 AM

I hate FOW in any TBS game. It doesn't add any enjoyment, just annoyance.

BTW those damn observatories suck, they should be flagable.

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brody
brody


Known Hero
Pathetic Loser
posted April 14, 2002 09:19 AM

Weird, fog of war is one of my favorite additions.  Less time wasted watching enemies move when they're still 12 turns away from anything you care about.  You only see enemies in your area (town/mine/creature dwelling).

I liked fow in AoW and Civ 3 a lot.  It just seems really stupid to be able to "know" an enemy is approaching your town even though there's a mountain between your town and the enemy.  Besides, it makes things more strategic IMO.  You can launch sneak attacks without the AI (or other human players) seeing your army coming the moment it leaves your town.

As for "realism" of medieval times, H4 is obviously not meant to simulate real life.  I mean, who can fit 1200 of any creature (let alone something big like a titan) in an arrow tower??
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Jenova
Jenova


Famous Hero
posted April 14, 2002 09:56 AM

If you really can't stand enemy movement you can speed it up or not show it.

HOMM isn't meant to simulate real life, but some things are just too logical to ignore. It only helps that you can see more than just terrain with an observatory. The fog of war makes me get scouting for every single hero.

It also increases the amount of turns you need in hunting enemy heroes down since the fog covers their movement. OK, it makes more sense that you can't see what's going on half a mile away, but at least if they're going to do fog, make the radius of vision much larger. Heroes should still uncover "black" shroud with the same radius, but once uncovered, its "fog radius" should be longer than it is, to minimize the effect of the FoW.

As it is, you gotta keep lots of heroes about to keep watch. The stealth skill already makes it easier to sneak up on people, including fog as well is overkill.

And it would be awesome if observation towers could be flagged. It would be no different to the way it is in previous HOMMs which didn't have FoW (the vision is permanent).

There needs to be some more vision divining spells, perhaps given to Order or Nature. Far Sight for example, should reveal a patch of the map for one turn, and next turn covers up in fog. And to balance it, maybe each hero can only cast it once per turn.

I haven't really found FoW to be a positive addition to my game, because all it's done is made life more annoying. Most of the new changes were for better, but FoW's only purpose seems to be to make stealth and scouting skills more crucial. Heroes can easily sneak up on your territories unexpectedly.. but what can you do about it? Keep lots of units around on guard in case that happens? I doubt you have the money for that. Keep lots of heroes all over the place to serve as scouts? Hardly sounds practical.

What's annoying is when you're busy sending your armies out to conquer territories but then someone sneaks up and takes some castles of your own. You don't have the resources to keep reserve armies around to guard all your castles because you need to send them up to your front line. At least in previous HOMMs you could leave some troops unbuilt in your towns and when you see an enemy within a few days away from your towns, build up the armies in that town. Now with the fog they can come up and catch you off guard. Countering that is harder than doing it.

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arachnid
arachnid


Promising
Famous Hero
posted April 14, 2002 11:31 AM

the main problem i have with the fog is it is to dense, you should still be able to see places very clearly in the "fog" same with creatures that were there last time you visited it, this would be much better since buildings cant move and you can only know if the same creatures are there that were last time is when you ride up and check. So creatures could be beaten from the map even though in your "fog" it shows there still there.(does that make any sense?)
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Oldtimer
Oldtimer


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Please leave a message after..
posted April 14, 2002 12:12 PM

The fog of war is a very good addition.  It makes the game more strategic.  It forces you to flag all the buildings you can, because if you leave them unflagged your enemy has eyes in your area.  Also it gives you a reason to keep those pesky trooops that you charmed, they act like sentries/spies.
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brody
brody


Known Hero
Pathetic Loser
posted April 15, 2002 03:23 PM

Quote:
If you really can't stand enemy movement you can speed it up or not show it.

In H3, this isn't at all possible, because if you miss all movement, you not only miss superfluous movement, you also miss the hero who just moved withing striking distance of your town.

Quote:
HOMM isn't meant to simulate real life, but some things are just too logical to ignore. It only helps that you can see more than just terrain with an observatory. The fog of war makes me get scouting for every single hero.

True.  The observatory should probably even last a full turn like you (or somebody else, can't remember) suggested.  I wouldn't even be opposed to FoW slowly rolling in over a couple turns or something.

Quote:
It also increases the amount of turns you need in hunting enemy heroes down since the fog covers their movement. OK, it makes more sense that you can't see what's going on half a mile away, but at least if they're going to do fog, make the radius of vision much larger. Heroes should still uncover "black" shroud with the same radius, but once uncovered, its "fog radius" should be longer than it is, to minimize the effect of the FoW.

As it is, you gotta keep lots of heroes about to keep watch. The stealth skill already makes it easier to sneak up on people, including fog as well is overkill.


Never saw that as a problem.  You should have to hunt down the enemy and they should have a chance to hide.  Stealth allows a single hero to hide effectively, but you can't often take a well-garrisoned town with just one hero, especially if he's spent his time developing stealth.

Quote:
And it would be awesome if observation towers could be flagged. It would be no different to the way it is in previous HOMMs which didn't have FoW (the vision is permanent).

There needs to be some more vision divining spells, perhaps given to Order or Nature. Far Sight for example, should reveal a patch of the map for one turn, and next turn covers up in fog. And to balance it, maybe each hero can only cast it once per turn.

Agreed, I don't understand how you can magically "see" what's going on around your mines... but if they have that rule (which is very necessary), they should allow observation towers to be flagged as well.  As long as you control it, you get to see things far away.  And spells would be great.  Maybe even level 5 spell to see the whole map for a turn, but then cover it up back the way it was (completely black fog over unexplored areas)... that'd be cool.

Quote:
I haven't really found FoW to be a positive addition to my game, because all it's done is made life more annoying. Most of the new changes were for better, but FoW's only purpose seems to be to make stealth and scouting skills more crucial. Heroes can easily sneak up on your territories unexpectedly.. but what can you do about it? Keep lots of units around on guard in case that happens? I doubt you have the money for that. Keep lots of heroes all over the place to serve as scouts? Hardly sounds practical.

What's annoying is when you're busy sending your armies out to conquer territories but then someone sneaks up and takes some castles of your own. You don't have the resources to keep reserve armies around to guard all your castles because you need to send them up to your front line. At least in previous HOMMs you could leave some troops unbuilt in your towns and when you see an enemy within a few days away from your towns, build up the armies in that town. Now with the fog they can come up and catch you off guard. Countering that is harder than doing it.


I see it as annoying, but necessary.  The enemy should have that small chance of survival, even when greatly outnumbered.  In 3, once you reach a certain point, you know you've won and that's that.  In 4, you are pretty sure you've won, but if you aren't careful, your enemies could still gain the upper hand.
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brody
brody


Known Hero
Pathetic Loser
posted April 15, 2002 03:27 PM

Quote:
the main problem i have with the fog is it is to dense, you should still be able to see places very clearly in the "fog" same with creatures that were there last time you visited it, this would be much better since buildings cant move and you can only know if the same creatures are there that were last time is when you ride up and check. So creatures could be beaten from the map even though in your "fog" it shows there still there.(does that make any sense?)


agreed.  As I said, I like fog, but it really needs to show creatures.  AoW did fog very well, I only hope the NWC team makes a few changes to it.
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Cloak
Cloak

Tavern Dweller
Untouched by Lions
posted April 16, 2002 03:58 PM

Fog can be cheated?

Scrolling through the list of cheats I saw one to turn off the Fog. Since I like the Fog (usually), I haven't tried it.
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DonGio
DonGio


Promising
Famous Hero
of Clear Water Mountain Clan
posted April 22, 2002 06:32 PM

I also like the Fog. It doesn't bother me nearly as much as I thought it would. I don't even mind the creatures being removed from my sight.

I agree on the observation tower thing. Really don't understand why they implemented it the way they have.

But the mines are operated by people, right? Working for you, right? So they tell you what they see, right? Get the point, right?
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Cat
Cat


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Gonna Get Dirrty...
posted April 23, 2002 09:36 AM

The problem with the cheat though is that it removes the whole of the shroud, not just the fog.  I have no desire to play minus the shroud.

I also agree that there is a lack of continuity as far as the observation towers are concerned.  
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Jenova
Jenova


Famous Hero
posted April 24, 2002 03:53 AM

Some like it, some don't. Fog of war should have been a selectable option at the beginning of the game.
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