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Heroes Community > Tavern of the Rising Sun > Thread: Les voix de l'univers
Thread: Les voix de l'univers

Famous Hero
Flying through the windshield
posted March 03, 2017 10:13 PM
Edited by AlHazin at 23:05, 03 Mar 2017.

Les voix de l'univers

Or "the voices of the universe" in English. Let's check out an interesting part of our world, our universe: its dimensions. What is a dimension? How many dimensions exist? What does each one of them include or exclude? As I know many people are interested in that, especially you Blizzardboy, get on the learning space-time dimensional ship!

First of all, what is a dimension?

A dimension is a facet of a given thing, an aspect, a "side", a perspective, an idea. Defining dimension is not easy. Commonly, it refers to the principle of size, like when we speak about the dimensions of an object, usually length, width and height, in a two or three dimensional world. Then the meaning of dimension evolved to cover a much more abstract idea of the word (or maybe it's the reverse, the word had that abstract meaning and then was materialized into its physical meaning)*, especially in mathematics and physics, where it means the three independent directions (x, y and z), according to which everything is positioned in the physical realm, commonly referred to as space.
However, its meaning goes way further, depending on context. It might refer to a characteristic, a circumstance, a phase of something.

What we can conclude from that definition, or should I say those multiple definitions, is that the notion of dimension is very hard to precisely and firmly set. We can however assume that the idea of dimension is linked to the one of size, directions, and space. This remains vague, but as we study the multiple dimensions we start understanding what it is a little better.

There are different "degrees" of dimensions, so let's discover them one by one. To create the next dimension, you have to add strait lines between two of your current dimensions, so we can say that that a given dimension is the component, or the unit of the next one. We'll see that just now. Just focus with me, Blizzardboy.

The 0th dimension:

Is the hardest one to understand. This first dimension exists AND doesn't exist at the same time. Actually the 0th dimension is defined by the absence of dimensions, represented in geometry by the dot, which, having absolutely NO dimension, is nothing else than pure information. We might say that the dot, by its own definition, doesn't exist, as it has no dimensions, but the fact is that it does, and it is the smallest component of the other dimensions. So basically, an infinite amount of nothings will end up by giving something (an infinite amount of aligned dots will give a strait line, which exists as it has 1 dimension). As it doesn't "physically" exist, you don't need any coordinate to position an information in this quite tiny dimension.

The 1st dimension:

As stated above, if you draw a strait line between two dots, you'll create a new dimension, the line. That line defines in Geometry one dimension. Actually, by definition you only need two dots to draw a strait line, and any of the other dots will be located by a number, and only one (x). But a strait line is composed of an infinite number of aligned dots. To put it simple, you need multiple 0th dimension to get one 1st dimension.

The 2nd dimension:

Now, if we add a strait line to our existing strait line, in whatever direction we want, or if you link between them with lines, this will give us a plane. You need two strait lines to create a plane, which is two dimensional. All points of a plane have now two numbers to be identified (x ; y). Some creatures live in a constant two dimensional space, or to be more precise, see our three dimensional world in only two of his dimensions at a time. Like the lizards. We'll see their example later on.

The 3rd dimension:

Take two parallel planes, link them with a strait line, and you've finally reached the third dimension, space. Each number of space has three numbers to be located (x ; y ; z). This is basically the world as we see it. We position everything according to these three dimensions, we measure and define the sizes of everything according to them.

After this point, we usually have reached the last point of most people dimensional concern. We mostly think that there are only three dimensions, without even thinking about the 0th one, as it is in a three dimensional space that we evolve. But the universe is more complex, and sometimes we even happen to deal with some other dimensions more frequently than we think.

OK Blizzardboy now put your belt on, things are getting a little bit harder after this point.

The 4th dimension:

The tesseract. It exists. To create it, we'll follow the exact same process we've done so far. We will take two "spaces" and link them with strait lines. You'll tell me how?

Well. The universe is limited. Let's assume that for now: space is a finite phenomenon, a finite dimension and a finite entity of our universe as a whole. Now if we take two spaces, shaped like cubes for example, and link each point in one of them with its respective counterpart of the other, we'll create a whole new dimension described in the chords theory. Basically, we have created time. As traveling from a place to another, "takes" time, it then creates it, supposing that if there is no movement, there's no "physical" time if I may say.
Now, to define a point, which in our IRL means an information (in a very large sense, it might mean a person, a thing, a moment, an act, a phenomenon, an action... etc) we need four numbers, or coordinates, the third first, that will position it in space, and a forth one which will give us the time at which it is, or it is happening (x ; y ; z, t). The four dimensional world we live in, seen from the beginning of the universe to the end of the universe, is the actual world we live in. This is what made man thinking of traveling in time. Because he could somehow define it as an extension of space, in which he already travels.

The 5th dimension:

The forth dimension as a whole is the history of our universe as a whole, now, considering that there could have been different histories, different outcomes for every phenomenons, we have the fifth dimension. This dimension as a whole is every possible history of the universe containing every possible outcomes for every event in the history of the universe. As some examples I found: Hitler winning WWII, the Earth never being hit by an asteroid leading the dinosaurs to get extinct, man never appearing... etc.
So here, to position a point, an info, you have to put it in space (x ; y ; z ), time (t), and the actual "time" it is in, compared to the other "times" which are described as parallel universes. For example, Fred is positioned in a precise spot of the universe, he has an x, a y and a z, he is positioned in time, which is now, and positioned in the fifth dimension we're in, because in a different time, another info than him could be placed in his x, y, z and t.
The 5th dimension is the first dimension in which the notion of possible worlds starts needing to be used. Imagine some possible worlds a little different from this one (maybe one where you did not read this blog). This possible world will give you a unit of similarity measurement with which to compare the distance of other possible worlds to the actual one.

This guy explains the lizards' example:

I see some of the answers here take the concept of time to explain higher dimensions; but time is just a mathematical dimension. There are seriously more than 3 physical dimensions. So, I'm going(trying) to
explain them.
The higher dimensions (dimensions beyond the 3 spatial dimension) came into existence when Einstein, Kaluza, Klein and several others worked on developing a single theory(known as "Unified theory" back then and "String theory" recently) which would explain all of gravity, Electromagnetism etc. They dreamed of postulating an equation which would explain "everything". If you want to know about how higher dimensions exist, why they exist and how we intend to find them watch this video:
Making sense of string theory
Okay, coming back to imagining higher dimensions, imagine this:
Imagine two lizards crawling on the roof inside a room. The room has a balloon floating in the air. Somewhat like this(ignore the thread of the balloon)

Now, assume that lizards can only crawl but not jump and also that they can only see what's in front of them. So, for a lizard, this world is of only two-dimensions. Because, it can't see places or go to places whatever's above or below it.
Back to the room.
Now, while the lizards are crawling on the wall, one lizard suddenly slips and falls on the balloon. Now, the 1st lizard which is sticking to the roof tries to find it's mate by crawling each and every inch of the inside walls of the room. And similarly, the 2nd lizard tries to find it's mate by crawling every surface bit of the balloon.
Can either find either? No. Because, the lizard's vision does not permit them to see beyond two dimensions.
What happened to second lizard in POV of 1st lizard? The second lizard " Slipped into another dimension"
What happened to second lizard in it's own POV? It "slipped into another dimension".
We are similar to lizards. We can only see what we see but cannot see beyond what we see because we are restricted to see what we are meant to see. There is a 4th dimension, a 5th dimension (You know there are 10 dimensions if you have watched that video) in front of us. But, we just simply cannot imagine or see them except to understand them and play with them mathematically.
This story might be a good metaphor to relate to our restriction of imagining higher dimensions.
As pointed out in the comments,  the analogy and explanation till this point has been previously given by Carl Sagan, the Great. I have just constructed my understanding in my words from what I've listened before.
Now, back to the lizard story;
Now seeing the plight of the lizards, assume you caught the tail of 1st lizard and hung it in the air in the middle. Now, what will the 1st lizard see? It will be amazed to see that there exists a "different" world completely. Now, after watching the balloon hanging in the room and a wall beyond it, may be it's brain(scientifically disputable*) triggers it's sense of 3rd dimension and suddenly, it can see the floor behind it It can see the chandelier's  hanging from a wall while crawling on corners.
Similarly, all it takes is a person to show the 4th dimension to us and may be our brain too(again, scientifically disputable*) will start seeing what we have not been seeing all these days.

*Some believe that after seeing the 4th dimension once; our brain will automatically trigger to see it forever.

Here's where I found that.

Hey Blizzardboy, chill, we're not done already.

The 6th dimension:

Now, according to what I was reading, adding a sixth dimension goes beyond human comprehension. We know that a fifth dimension determined a specific multiple times, and thus gave us a different world in the same universe depending on which time we're in. But now, it means not only every possible world, but possible universes. (I mean by that, that despite different times thus different histories, we were still in a one and unique universe, but in this new dimension, the universe as an entity changes as we can get multiple ones, each starting with the same starting point, big bang).
The 6th dimension will give you a plane of possible worlds. You can find out the similarity distance of two possible worlds from each other without having to go through the actual one. So with 6 dimensions it is possible to compare the distance of the world in which last Sunday I entered another café, with the world in which I made a huge groundbreaking invention when I was a child, without having to compare that to the actual world. We can also measure the distance of any of those to the possible world in which the earth was never created, for example. The 6 dimensions allow us to compare and position all the possible worlds that start with the same initial conditions (the big bang) as this one. (This is description I took from a site and I don't fully understand either).

The 7th dimension:

Ho ho ho, Blizzardboy, you wet your pants? Want one of my diapers?
If the sixth dimension bears every possible universes, then the seventh bears all possible universes that start with different initial conditions (big bang). A point in the 7th dimension consists of all the possible universes that start with different initial big bangs and lead to all the possible endings that such an initial condition can lead to.  

The 8th dimension:

The 8th dimensions gives us again a plane of such complete possible universe histories, called infinity. We can there compare two such infinities without necessarily having to take ours into account. I think it means that there, we have multiple big bangs, each one creating a possible universe that branches infinitely with every possible physical constants.

I know your head is hurting, but I ought to finish what I started:

The 9th dimension:

With the 9th dimension we can compare all the possible universes histories starting with all the different possible laws of physics and initial conditions.

The 10th dimension:

The Tenth dimension is the point in which everything possible and imaginable is covered. Since we can't imagine any further, we have to stop here. Because we get every possible concept of existence itself. infinite possibilities.

I mostly used what David LEWIS said in his researches. According to him, it might be possible that other dimensions exist, which could lead to impossible worlds. In a site giving a presentation, I found this:

Here are a couple of quotes worth remembering from that presentation. In the description of the 5th dimension the narrator says:

Quantum physics tells us that the sub atomic particles that make up our world are collapsed from waves of probability simply be the act of observation.

In the description of the 10th dimension he says

In string theory physics tell us that superstrings vibrating in the 10th dimension are what create the subatomic particles which make up our universe and all the other possible universes as well. In other words all possible universes are contained within the tenth dimension.

About the title: Les voix de l'univers is the title of a comics relating the story of the end of the Earth and the training of a group of children in fort Alamo that were sent to colonize a new planet, raised and trained in a way so that they would become efficient individuals never falling to violence, wars and so on. The ships  cord was supposed to suicide to suppress all the previous humans who remembered the history of Earth, that decided not to do it and try to colonize other planets as well, but never getting into contact with the new ones. As they divided to settle, facing the failure of human adaptation, they created a network of radios so that they could communicate, in order to keep a sane mind, those constant voices speaking in every radio station were called: the voices of the universe.

*Put us back as to whether it's the theoretical ideas that materialize into physical phenomenons, or the physical phenomenons that make us theorize them in abstract concepts an ideas. In the same way, there's that philosophical debate that tries to figure if mathematics are purely abstract, or if they are writings of physical phenomenons too. Another asks if thoughts are the route of words, or if it's actually language that teaches us thinking.

Not sure for all translations, so correct me if I'm wrong somewhere. I don't understand everything posted in here either, so if we have any mathematician or physician here, feel free to explain better than me, if you please, as I'm really not sure to have understood everything, and more importantly to have explained it well enough.

To summarize: the dot--->the line---> the plane--->Space--->Time--->Every possible Time--->Every possible universe with the same starting point--->Every possible universe with different starting points--->Every possible physical constants--->Every possible physical laws--->Every possible form of

Blizzardboy, why are you screaming?
"The Erwin is out there as they say once in a while lol" - Verriker.
A felt change of consciousness - Markkur

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Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
posted March 03, 2017 10:40 PM

so Ghost is from Dimension 0 it seems.
Lithuanian folklore:
The Good and the Evil grab a few beers and go to watch how the neighbor's house is burning down.
* * *
"Herry can count to potato"- Fred79

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Undefeatable Hero
chewer of expensive shoes
posted March 03, 2017 11:34 PM

nice thread. but their logic is flawed(those who have supposed the nature of other dimensions, in the article). their assumptions of how the different dimensions exist, is based entirely on the physical dimension we're in currently(what the scientists study). if they've never been outside the physical realm, then they can't see how they're wrong.

but i don't have all the answers either. i'm not a genius by any means, so it's not like i could understand every little thing about what i saw. the math part of it didn't come into play whatsoever.

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Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted March 04, 2017 12:11 AM

Was it something like this, fred?

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Legendary Hero
Everywhere and nowhere
posted March 04, 2017 06:36 AM

Tish, that's French!

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Famous Hero
posted March 04, 2017 11:07 AM

Nice fantasion but for today only theory. Maybe in future something will be from it?

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Undefeatable Hero
chewer of expensive shoes
posted March 06, 2017 04:19 AM

artu said:
Was it something like this, fred?

i know you're only taking a poke, but nope. i can draw up a diagram, though, if you're actually interested. which, my guess is, you're genuinely not.

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