|Thread: The Reality of the Life: GHH|
posted March 05, 2017 02:19 PM
|Edited by frostysh at 08:39, 11 Mar 2017.
The Reality of the Life: GHH
---I have fixed some grammar mistakes---
---I will transport this topic into non-delete branch, when I have create some normal first post.---
---I will edit this post i the future, perhaps---
---oops, I have posted it in the non-spam thread, anyway, I will improve the first post, I need to rest a while, I have eat too much of cheap hand-made cakes---
Recently I have read some stuff, and I have remembered about heroescommunity.com, and the fact that I have no witnessed topics about a very important part of the reality, the part of the History of the mankind, and especially the History of 20th century AD - The Genocides, and it's special cases the Holodomor, and the Holocaust (listed chronologically). Also I have remembered some attempts to posses a Genocide of Armenian folks in O.-Empire in the beginning of the 20th century AD, which of course was not the first event of systematic, well-planned killing of civilian peoples by somebody who have a power. So for the all sake of justice I think I should post this topic, this is the field of my curiosity, coz' ma family was one of the victims of such events in the past. Of course, even if my family may not be killed by such stuff, I think I still have curiosity in such horrible things - As somebody, that I have never knows, said: "The victims must be honored, the guilty must be punished, and the justice must be restored"
So my curiosity brings me to the 20 century instead, the century of the utopias of class, of socium, of race, of nation, etc of the war crimes, of the madness and horror that cannot be described in the any of existing human languages (well somebody will say - and wtf? difference from 21th c.AD, and I will say - the bloody hell, who knows, maybe you are right).
The century of industrialization, of revolution technologies, and I think human's "spirit"-side, human's emotions, human's habit cannot adopt to such drastically changes, and that is the main reason <imho> why ideologies was so popular. Why the peoples, that has been affected by this ideologies can easily justify anything and everything that will satisfy their desires, and why it is so hard for them, to cross the border that the particular ideology creates. Beginning from the Genocides in the Colonial Africa, and ends with Carpet Bombardment of Civil districts of the Middle East, Killings in Balkans, Hiroshima, etc.. the basic system of the genocide is not changed - to kill some amount of peoples on the particular territory.
This peoples can distinguished by a many criteria, due to the desires of somebody that have a power to apply such genocide technology, for an example by a visual outlook, or a traditions, or a life-style and so on.
Ma' snow about genocide
NOTE: Genocide used as a name for a process of killing particular amount of peoples on the particular area, usually made by somebody that have a power in those times on that area, usually peoples killed in the large numbers, and distinguished for the others by some special criteria, it is little bit different from the common use of this term. For an example, by my definition the Bombarding of Japan civil districts during W2 is the Genocide too. It is used for a simplifying purposes, just to not use many words such as: War Crimes, Planned Killing on the huge scale, Crimes Against humanity, etc..
I think the main reason of why peoples so easily accept genocide it is abusing theirs instincts by a propaganda. During human evolution, in the Brain and Genes of Humans created a many adaptations, this is including aggression, and the homicide habits, and this is confirming by a many Evolutionary Psychologists, Neuroscientists, Geneticists, etcetcetcetc. For an example a many conferences has been made, and the many interesting theories has been created. Such as this one -
The answer will not come quickly, but research has already identified some useful paths to follow. Neurosurgeon Itzhak Fried from the University of California, Los Angeles, for example, proposes that ordinary people are able to become repetitive killers because changes in neural circuitry free the ideology-fed, cognitive parts of the brain from the emotional parts of the brain, which normally keep actions in check.
A better understanding of brain circuitry could not, of course, influence the political forces that create the conditions for mass murder. But discussion of such politically neutral basic neuroscience could allow progress while avoiding unhelpful rhetoric.
And findings in basic science could have a direct impact: perhaps by helping to find ways of educating people to make them less likely to succumb to ideological requests or commands to kill. - The kill switch
But our society, our understanding of Nature is evolving much-much more faster than our Brain Structure or Genes, the adaptations such as aggression and homicide that works pretty well when human population was "on the bottom of the pool" and human's society was just a bucket of a chimpanzee like hunters/gatherers guys, this effective adaptations which was like that for a millions of years, playing a bad, a very bad joke with humans in the modern history. The Nature, cannot adopt so fast, to reality of a rapid-changin' of the human's life, and a progress, and stuff. And there we get a situation when large bucket of peoples can be easily manipulated with stuff that abusing such instincts, that is the millions years old. Of course the Nature has created some "switch off" mechanism of genocide, this fact is clearly known for the guys who have done genocides, the direct killing process of the large amount of peoples causing some serious mental effects, basically even a single "unjustified by Nature" (justified by Nature killings is a Idk, such as killing or harming of sexual enemy in the tribes of Africa, killing during sexual aggression in this tribes, or a "mini wars" between small groups of hunters-gathers because of a hunting lands in the Africa, etc, etc, etc..) killing is left a some serious mental effect on the murderer -
Quote:, Nature trying to make a balance of anything, even hunters and prays, such as wolves and moose: wolves killing only a weak and old, or a very young animals, if the wolves become to start a genocide of the moose and they will succeed - the no moose will left, and the wolves must switch to something other, and in this case the very bad thing will be for the wolves too, not only for moose. And of course it is hard to imagine when one breed of wolves using genocide to another... I don't know any example of the genocide in the Nature, somebody told me about Neanderthals and Cromagnon, but it is looks like Cromagnons guys that have most of genes from the Africa, just brings a bacteria stuff along with them, and to this stuff Neanderthals have no normal immunity, any Neanderthals that survived - has need mixed with Cromagnons. The genocide on such large scale must be systematized, and even in those case it will fail, even in 20th century AD, genocide cannot reach such success, and I have doubts that it was possible frigging tens millennia ago. In short a too large territory, to primitive civilization for a such effective genocide.
In Grossmanís view, it has long been a myth that one of the greatest threats to mental health while at war is the fear of dying. At least as distressing is the act of taking the life of a fellow human being, regardless of nationality or circumstance. This can be seen when soldiers put themselves in danger to avoid having to kill someone else, an act that, in Grossmanís experience, occurs more frequently than we think. - Death Becomes Us: The Psychological Trauma of Killing
The Cro-Magnons shared the European landscape with Neanderthals for some 10,000 years or more, before the latter disappeared from the fossil record. The nature of their co-existence and the extinction of Neanderthals has been debated. Suggestions include peaceful co-existence, competition, interbreeding, assimilation, and genocide. Other modern people, like the Qafzeh humans, seem to have co-existed with Neanderthals for up to 60,000 years in the Levant.
Earlier studies argue for more than 15,000 years of Neanderthal and modern human co-existence in France. A simulation based on a slight difference in carrying capacity in the two groups indicates that the two groups would be found together only in a narrow zone, at the front of the Cro-Magnon immigration wave. - Cro-Magnon, with references, Wikipedia
So I think Nature developed a serious defense that preventing genocide, that because Nazi-guys decided to use a gas-chambers, instead of death-squads. Because it is almost impossible to kill such amount of peoples by using killers directly - they all will obtain a serious mental traumas, and even may happens the revolt.. To solve this problem, the different governments use a different methods, as usually most effective methods has been used by Communist-guys, and Democratic-guys. See below.
A most popular examples:
NOTE: The pictures used in the mini-review of of the most popular genocidal politics examples trough the history of the mankind. - Armenian Genocide "Deportation of Armenians, source - Wikipedia", Holodomor - unknown author, but definitely not the frostyh, Holocaust - "Adolf Hitler and the crowd", the source - bbci.co.uk, Great China Famine - the picture from the documentary "Mao's Great Famine", depicting the spectacle that has been made by CPR government for the Soviet Offs, where 6 humans can dance over a field of the grain and don't fall down coz' of the huge density of those farm-field. . .
Well-newsline-light-upped genocide, where are the many factors, included, the external menace, and internal conflicts, brings the government of Ottoman Empire to the decision - to exterminate. (Yes you will say, that I am totally wrong, and there was different factors, including religious etc... and probably you will be particularly right)
The main goal: Success (even regardless of some transformations of the Ottoman Empire, the main mission of genocide - to neutralize the "Armenian Treat" has been completed, of course this stuff bring more problems than benefits to OE and RoT governments, but this is an another story imho)
Efficiency: Very Low - Low (Despite of some empires have experience of genocide on such large scale before - in colonial Africa, for an example, the methods of OE was truly pathetic, this looks more like mini-war, than extermination, with huge resistance, and with the all bucket of supplement problems, of course with a time the efficiency become little bit better, but it still was low)
Conspiracy: Very Low (Almost total fail, for an exception of some events of neutralizing the crucial figures that may light up many interesting facts being alive - such as Cemal Pasha)
Recognition: High (lot of material in news-line, lot of material in schools, universities, many countries recognized genocide in public)
Propaganda motivation: Internal conflicts, Islam, nationalism.
Targets: Armenians & Co
Area: Particular areas of OE
Estimate amount of victims by frostysh: ~1-2 millions, (if we will count the all supportive casualties but not only the direct number of the victims of the genocide)
Other benefits: The government of OE/RoT tried to use some stuff as a benefits of this situation, but mostly the problems was so much worst than benefits.
Government after reaction: Not recognized, not taking any serious public responsibility.
so-called genocide-holodomor ("Holod" - famine, hunger, "mor" - a plague, like a Black Death in Europe, or a killing/torturing process, when somebody "morit" somebody, altogether = killing process by a force-made starvation) - when government of SU decided to implement their "final solution" to the rural folks "class" due to the danger of the revolt coz' failed economical reforms (Yes, you will say that extermination was directed against particular ethnic group, but I will answer - not exactly, you are don't clearly understand the kind of thinkin' of communists)
The main goal: Success (despite of the fact that such measures was truly insanity, same as other genocidal stuff, and perhaps this is one of the main reason of SU self-disbanded, success has been reached. Any potential sustain resistance on the territory of modern RoU, RF, RoK has been killed for a long time)
Efficiency: High - Very High (This method of killing was one of the most effective methods of killing developed ever. This is make a normal distance between executors and victims, to prevent hard mental trauma of killing an risk of revolt, in addition due to the human psychology nature, "long death from a famine" is produce less amount of resistance, and making the victims intentionally think as they dying from "natural" stuff. I believe this method has been developed after some experience of mass-murdering in the time of Russia Civil War, coz' the death-squads was truly bad idea for such large number of victims)
Conspiracy: High - Very High (Total success with conspiracy on such scale is looks almost unbelievable - the result is magnificent, most of peoples in 150 mllns RF, even don't know about nature of that famine... we can only imagine how large amount of work has been done in that case. impressive. )
Recognition: Low (Despite the fact that in the most of schools and universities this events is possessed as genocide, in the RF & Co the situation is a truly different, very low amount of countries has been recognized it as genocide.)
Propaganda motivation: Class-enemies/Class-warfare.
Targets: the farmer-rural class of peoples ~70-90% of which was ethnically ukrainians
Area: modern RoU ter. + ("Kuban" + "Volga Region") of RF
Estimate amount of victims by frostysh: ~20 millions (it is without any great "purge measures", on the both territories of modern RoU and RF.)
Other benefits: Goods that has been expropriated from a victims has been reestablished for the government' needs, the aura of fear and control, etc.
Government after reaction: Not recognized. Mentioned as a "mistake" after circa 1955AD, not taking any responsibility, and after ~2000AD not even recognized as a mistake...
well-newsline-light-upped genocide too, extermination of the Jewish folks and company, that caused by Nazi propaganda machine, well which is works very good, so many believed in those mythology with a horrific results.
The main goal: Fail (Despite the fact that many jewish, slavic, and stuff has been killed, the goals was a doomed from beginning, and the genocide does not caused any catastrophic damage to the population of jewish, slavic, and other guys, the goal was mythical from the beginning and have a low connection to the any reality - <imo> the Nazi guys become hostages of their own effective propaganda)
Efficiency: average - high (On the beginning was a very low efficiency due to the mythological imagination of the aryan guys as natural enemy of the jewish and slavic, etc, guys, d-facto the "aryans" from a death squads have the same feelings and mental traumas as their slavic brother from red army durin' Russia Civil War, but in this case, the wave of modern technologies and progress helped very well - new gas chambers have a much more significant efficiency than any death squads, and helped to make a distance between executors and victims.)
Conspiracy: Low - Average (On the beginning it was low, but very short after, some smarty Nazi-guys realized how catastrophic situation becomes, and the predicted a total defeat of the Nazi-utopia, so the trying to hide the evidence of some mass-murdering without much of a success, thinking it will help to save the German Nation from a pity fate in hands of allies. - see "Treblinka 2", imho, but the Nazi guys has been saved by another factor - a new war, a Cold War.)
Recognition: Extreme (Almost anybody well-aware about such genocidal politics, almost the all of countries - well the all, recognized it as genocide. Countless amount of Historical materials, in Universities, Schools, etc.)
Propaganda motivation: Clean-race/territory.
Targets: Jews, Slavic-guys, etc.
Area: Sphere-Controlled territories of Nazi German during pre-W2/W2
Estimate amount of victims by frostysh: ~10-15 millions (This is not counting some measures in the territory of SU during W2, and in the Africa territory)
Other benefits: Goods that has been expropriated from a victims has been reestablished for the government' needs, propaganda of success of german race.
Government after reaction: Recognized as a genocide (coz' have no other choices ), taking responsibility, at least in public.
Mao's Great Famine
Gambit - when CPR government, due to their desires and Cold War, depending on the internal problems decided to exterminate ~100 millions of the rural folks, and they killed something near ~50 millions as I think, it was the most effective killing process in the history of mankind. (Yeah, you will say - you are lier frostysh! But I will say - I don't think so. The scale of the tragedy in CPR, perhaps is even beyond the any imagination, the main problem - the only normal victim counting process has been done by actually genocide employers, as it usually happens, so the truth is well covered and buried very deep... )
The main goal: Success (Despite of truly insanity of goals and perhaps even those who have pointed this goals, the goals has been reached)
Efficiency: Very High (The most effective mass-murdering in the history of mankind, that has been done with China-like pedantic bureaucracy, of course some factors was good for that, but even if we will count them, this will still not changes the fact of the most success genocide in history of mankind)
Conspiracy: High - Very High (Amazing conspiracy, aura of fear, perhaps studied from the SU-comrades methods was indeed successful, even despite of the fact that many universities and schools have some materials it is truly looks like a joke comparing to the scale and territory of genocidal politics.)
Recognition: Pathetic (and It is truly impressive)
Propaganda motivation: Class-warfare/Anti-capitalist-movements.
Targets: Poor rural folks of CPR
Area: Some particular CPR territories
Estimate amount of victims by frostysh: ~50 millions (This is not counting some cleansing measures)
Other benefits: Goods that has been expropriated from a victims has been reestablished for the government' needs.
Government after reaction: Unknown.
Of course, there is alot of another examples, that we can discuss there (or frostysh will discuss it with myself ). Some citation that can describe my current feelings about all of that.
Bonus - Comparing effectiveness of the different propaganda stuff
NOTE: I have divided peoples on some categories, and counting the effectiveness of the different types of the propaganda on them, (this is only an approximation for the opportunity reasons, nothin more. ) 1st Level - the peoples for which enough to believe in something, basically the common rural folks beliefs in China is a good example, they just follow the surrounding them traditions, greatest amount of peoples, etc. 2nd Level - The peoples that likes a conspiracy, and stuff, they like to feel different from the crowd, basically they will accept anything that is means "secret" even with a minimum amount of confirmations, they like to have a solid world picture, etc.. some programmer or an engineer will be good example imho. 3rd Level - The peoples that will be not satisfied by previous explanations, they usually trying to find a truth comparing a many different factors, theories (even the most ridiculous ones) etc, they usually hard to be convinced by any historical data without a very solid confirmations, and even in that case they will left a possibility for a something drastically different. I don't know an examples - perhaps theoretical physicist, geneticists, or a professional historical investigator, will be good examples.
frostysh himself belongs to the middle after 1st level, and before 2nd.
Of course some above levels exist too, but I can only imagine what a deep understanding of the world this guys have, anyway I don't think that the above 3rd level guys is a common thing, so I will not include them into a propaganda stuff descriptions.
NOTE: The pictures used, Religious - Muslim pilgrims near Kaaba (without any disrespect, or the any focusing on the Islam in particular, only just as an example.), source darkroom.baltimoresun.com, Natio - ss guys on the massive parade, suorce pinterest.com, Commi
- massive redsquare parade, well, when I am looking on this guy that have turned back, I a,m trying to hope that RF-guys is still have some hope... source cdn.i24news.tv
A very ancient human beliefs. That can change a mood of a very large amount of peoples. trough history faced a drastically changes, but the main ideas left the same. The most of modern Religious stuff explaining The World in therm of it's has been created with some purpose, and by something that you need warship to.
Main ideas: Deity, Mysticism, life after life, etc.
Spreading (modern conditions): Slow (Average/High in the poor/problem areas)
1st Level: Extreme
2nd Level: Pathetic
3rd Level: Pathetic
Pretty ancient beliefs too, have obtain a "new life" in the 20th century AD. Explaining the world in terms of the identity, the purity and "natural selection"
Main ideas: Pure Nation (usually "genetic-purity"), Cultural Identity, National Warfare, etc
Spreading (modern conditions): Average
1st Level: Low (Average/high in the unstable regions)
2nd Level: Very High
3rd Level: Very Low
Well not so ancient as previous ones, typo materialistic ideology based on the world model about peoples-class struggles. sometimes a very flexible ideology.
Main ideas: Equality, Class Warfare, etc .
Spreading (modern conditions): Slow (despite the slow spreading of this propaganda stuff it is a much more stable than previous ones - this is means, if the person affected by those kind of propaganda, it will be more hard to disrupt the person from that way)
1st Level: Very Low (Average in the unstable regions)
2nd Level: High
3rd Level: Low
frostysh' conclusions: The all above mentioned genocides was just a jokes. There is not real necessity or a purpose in killing of such large amount of the above mentioned peoples. This genocides is a result of manipulations with a basic humans instincts, the weaknesses and habits of humans. Something like: "Let's kill those 15 millions, just for fun!". Most of those genocides has been done in the time where most important branches of Sociology and dedicated Sciences has been only in the develop stage, and no effective (mathematical) model of societies exists.
Soon after, the smarty guys have realized a total insanity of that, but they did nothing, because they feared of a so-called inertia of the society. For an example - Holocaust: I think smarty Nazies, that have access to some non-public data, etc, (I know few nazies in my life, and nobody of them no was even close to the definition "smarty", usually they was even unable to look at situation from a single different angle, or have a single doubts, which was even worst from the Commi guys that I know - that because for now, depending on the my life experience I think that Nazi is more weak ideologically than Commi... ) has been truly aware, after a short time - that the all those stuff is just a madness and nonsense, and the road to nowhere (like it many times happened in the history), so why they not changin' the direction? Coz' they feared a reaction of the society (including a public leaders, army, etc..), society has been "filled" with the all of those nonsense, it is like a huge train with a large mass, on some speed, if we will try to change the direction of a train moving by drastically value in a short time - this will be disaster, due it's inertia. This is an example when somebody can become a hostage of their own propaganda, the effectiveness of the Nazi propaganda can be confirmed by the fact, that nowadays nazi-stuff is a popular culture in the East-Europe, Balkans, and even in the some countries of West-Europe, the most vulnerable to this propaganda is peoples of "engineering professions" and/or the same manner of thinking, (I have nothin' against engineers, but from ma life experience they become the victims of a propaganda more often than theoretical guys.), well will be good to say about a crucial factor of this type of the propaganda - the enemy, Nazi-guys' propaganda is concerned about this factor - the natural evil enemies, the Jewish guys and their conspiracy mythology, etc, and this is a very good and acceptable for somebody to scream a "Hail!", but for those that it's stuff is not enought - the "Conspirative Jewish Enemy" is works ok, coz' this is a large field where you can maneuver, the secrecy and conspiracy providing you with this opportunity (this is a "secret" do not tell anybody! now you know a truth about evil! etc, etc..), but what about those guys for whom is not even enough of secrecy stuff, and this is the problem of Nazi propaganda.. on this Level Nazi propaganda will show a crack - for an example, Commi-propaganda is showing Jewish evil conspiracy on this level only as an another factor, but not trying to explain the whole world and the history with a " ashkenazi vs nazi holy war", or something like that, and don't making any Idealization of this factor (of course Jewish conspiracy stuff has take place in the history due to the history of jewish folks, and perhaps their complicated language , resistance to the Ancient Egypt Empire, resistance to the Roman Empire, resistance to the Muslim guys, etc - as we can see, without a good conspiracy it is almost impossible ), so for the 3rd level guys, Nazi-propaganda giving a huge lack of the any sense. of course somebody will count such facts, when they will try to collect data, systematize and predict some process in the society, after implementing the nazi-propaganda to there. Interesting example in the nowadays is a Great Britain, where d-facto the modern concepts of nazi-propaganda has been developed, despite that fact, this country is a pretty stable to the any disturbance of such kind . About a train and inertia - I think some of the democratic societies of the nowadays is making the same mistakes as Nazi-guys have done, they accelerating train - and it is too dangerous imho...
Sow what solution - I don't know, I see no exit from this labyrinth of many-many leveled lie, madness a horror and a frigging nonsense. Well, I see the simplest solution - just cut the knot. Yes, it will be a disaster of somekind, but I think this case, somebody, somewhere, in sometime must try it. at least the many other variants has been tried before with not so much of success... Of course I can mistake, but who knows.
"The monstrous evils of the twentieth century have shown us that the greediest money grubbers are gentle doves compared with money-hating wolves like Lenin, Stalin, and Hitler, who in less than three decades killed or maimed nearly a hundred million men, women, and children and brought untold suffering to a large portion of mankind."
- Eric Hoffer
"Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind."
- Albert Einstein
"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
- Steven Weinberg
The quote of mr Steven Weinberg, I even want to extrapolate to the any ideology, not only the religion-like, because the very moment of the any ideology is to abuse - the natural instincts of the humans.
Albert Einstein(1929AD)-Nationalism, Eric Hoffer(1976AD)-Communism, Steven Weinberg(1999AD)-Religion
No. You're awesome.
posted March 10, 2017 08:28 AM
Ice skating uphill.
posted March 10, 2017 05:45 PM
|Edited by frostysh at 18:41, 10 Mar 2017.
Blizzardboy said:I am sorry, I don't clearly understand you, mr Blizzardboy.
Well in case this is the ban-report, and will be permabanned (I usually do not returns on the resource where I am banned!), and somebody will try to monkey me - I have a some solution, I have created two so-called Keys for PGP-program, how to use those stuff, you can read - Gnu Privacy Guard (GnuPG) Mini Howto (English).
So I have share two parts of this two buckets of symbols - called the "public keys", you can crypt the message using this "public key", and if you think that somebody trying to looks like a frostysh - just ask him/her to decrypt stuff that you have crypted with my public key, if the attempt will be successful, well, that means somebody is more likely frostysh .
This is the public key identificators on pgp.mit.edu: C643DAB7, F9FDE18B, user - frostysh, email: email@example.com, comments - "GPG-key for identification on heroescommunity.com", "The key for a sign in the heroescommunity.com in the case of ban."
This is the one of the keys.
-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: SKS 1.1.5
Comment: Hostname: pgp.mit.edu
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
This is only two "keys" for user frostysh and I will not expand their numbers.
Albert Einstein(1929AD)-Nationalism, Eric Hoffer(1976AD)-Communism, Steven Weinberg(1999AD)-Religion
posted March 10, 2017 07:37 PM
|Edited by Corribus at 07:06, 11 Mar 2017.
I am sorry but I do not understand you lol
MOD EDIT: Excessively long quote of the first post removed.
No. You're awesome.
posted March 10, 2017 10:45 PM
QP for Verriker.
Ice skating uphill.