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Heroes Community > Heroes 4 - Lands of Axeoth > Thread: Heroes 4 - Adventure Map Elements
Thread: Heroes 4 - Adventure Map Elements
Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted April 18, 2002 02:59 AM

Heroes 4 - Adventure Map Elements

I've compiled a list about the different Map Elements in Heroes 4 and listed some improvements to them.

At the end are also some additional wishes.

Towns
=====
One notable thing is that there is no Outpost. The Outpost was mentioned on the 3do site so this is surprising.

Towns now have two possible orientations.

The options to customize starting heroes seems to be the same as prisons, which are fairly extensive. If you want to fully customize a hero for a map it seems you should do it by placing the hero in a town garrison. Placing a hero on the map has a lot fewer options for configuration. (Not that I've tried making a map.)

At a glance configuration of towns looks Ok. Some things might have been removed but overall there seems to be the same or more options available.

Rating Towns: Overall  positive. But where did the Outpost go.

Power-ups
=========
Gems: Ok

Witch Hut and Beastmaster's Hut: Ok. (One magic /non-magic primary skill for free.)
(Skills are configurable.)

School of War/Magic: Offers a choice of two magic/non-magic primary skills at basic level for 2000 Gold) These feels a bit simple and are almost duplicates of the previous one. They could have added something more exiting.
(Skills are configurable.)

War/Magic University: Offers a choice of four different magic/non-magic secondary skills at basic level for 2000 Gold each). This is a very nice structure.
(Skills are configurable.)

Library/Veteran's Guild: Upgrades one magic/non-magic skill you already have. Can be visited once/hero. (Which skill that can be upgraded is configurable.) This is also a very nice structure.

Improvement wishes:
Offer the player a selection of skills that can be upgraded, rather than letting the computer select one at random.
Make it configurable how many upgrades that each hero can get at a library. (Default should be one.)
Another possibility is to limit the benefit by requiring that a certain time must expire between two visits by one hero. Say 1 Month.

Altar of Skill: Improves the skill. (If several skills within the group can be improved, one of them is selected by the computer.) This structure is a good idea.

Improvement suggestion: In this case offer the player a choice of which skill to improve. Another approach is to always increase the skill which already has the highest level and which currently can be improved.

Rating Power-ups: Ok. But some of the tuition buildings could be improved and have a few more customizations.


Movement
========

There are now "Stables" for each type of terrain giving +2 Movement over that terrain for a week. (I'm not sure how these work exactly, and if this benefit is worth the extra movement you have to spend.) The normal Stables has +5 Movement for 1 week.

Trough: +7 Movement this day. (Usually worth the visit.)

Rally Flag: Improves Movement with +1 (time not specified. Checked and it's longer than a week.)

Because the hero seems to use the slowest creature speed in an army mixed with hero and creatures (Is this a bug???), this structure probably has limited use.

Oasis: +10 Movement this day. (Usually worth the visit.)

Portals:
There are both one way Portals and two-way Portals.

A good thing with two way Portals is that you can choose your destination.

A bad thing on the Maps I've played so far is that there seems to be no correspondence between the names of the entry portal and the exit portal. (The name is configurable in the Map Editor so this shouldn't have been hard to accomplish.)

Rating Movement structures: The bonuses and selections are good. But you should be told and be able to review what bonuses you have at any one time. the interface to the user in the form of feedback and review options needs to be enhanced.

Temporary boosters
==================

For all of these. You're told of the bonus but often, you're not told how long it will last. (Unless the effect is to next combat.) Players should also be aware that some of the Fountains/Pools duplicate the effects of spells.

Not so good is that the boosts you have for your heroes and creatures are no longer visible on the army review screen. So you currently have very difficult to find out which structures you already have bonuses for, and finding out when these bonuses wear of is all but impossible.

For Morale and Luck boosters. With Luck and Morale now reaching between -10 and +10 you would expect some locations with a better boost than +1 and +2 (and most only gives a boost to the next combat). Some of the locations seems to last a longer unspecified time.

Generally, I'd like to know what happens if you mix stacks with bonuses and without bonuses, and if you mix stacks with different bonuses for the same stats. Does the combined stack lose bonuses (never, sometimes(when in that case?), always).

Just take a simple example. 10 Bandits who have visited a Blessing Stone (+1 Luck & Moral), meets 100 Bandits who have visited a Clover Field. What Morale and Luck bonuses will the stack of 110 Bandits have?

Rating Temporary Boosts: Ok, but I had hopes for more.


Shrines
=======

These are improved. You can now have shrines of any level for any magic. And you can configure the spells.

Rating: Excellent.

Creature Banks
==============

There are now 17 different creature banks. A nice touch is that they replenish themselves after a certain time (Guess is a month).

Two bad things:
There are no editable properties. (For instance start population, and it could also be useful to customize the growth rate.)

You're no longer surrounded by the enemy. (In fact you never seem to be surrounded any more.)

Rating: Good, but room for improvement.

Quest Objects/Oracles
=====================
The "Quest" structure have greatly enhanced abilities. Many of the others work as before.

You can now have several buried treasures and each is connected to one type of Oracle. A nice touch on the Oracles is that the location of the buried treasure can become visible after you've visited a configurable amount of oracles (so you may need to visit perhaps 4 out of 7 oracles.)
The reward can either be a resource or an artifact or a combination of these.

Rating: Good, but room for improvement.

Water Objects
=============

There are some news here, but I had hoped for something more. A treasure bank, pirate dwelling, and sea sanctuary. Some things have been taken away.

Rating: Average. Disappointed.


Observatories
=============

As before there are a number of these.

Improvement suggestion: These should preferably be flaggable (remove shroud in an smaller area around it while it remains flagged). When visited it should remove shroud in a greater area until end of turn. The "Fogged" area is not good enough.

The "Eye of The Magi", should also remove the Fog until End of turn.

Rating: Poor. Needs to be improved.


Prisons
=======
Seems possible to tailor the Prisoner more. Haven't looked into it all that much though.

Rating: Good to Excellent. In any case options looked promising.


Terrain and landscape Objects
=============================

Swamp terrain is much duller than in H3. Most of the other terrains are improved.

I'm not a map-maker but my impression is that you have a greater selection of structures/objects to pick from.


Rating: Not rating this one. Letting real map-makers do that instead.

By the way... have anybody who have used the scripting system any comments on the capabilities?

A good thing seems to be that it is there. A bad thing is that there's probably next to no documentation on it so you have to learn all about it yourself by trial and error.

____________
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ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted April 18, 2002 03:42 AM

Interesting List....

Nice post there, Djive.

"Rating Towns: Overall positive. But where did the Outpost go."

Towns are quite good, as the focus has been taken off creatures to some extent, as the emergance of Caravans, Prisons, and Mage Guilds have given something more for a hero to do in a town expect gather creatures.

"Rating Power-ups: Ok. But some of the tuition buildings could be improved and have a few more customizations."

By looking at the information you provided us, this seems to be the case.
The War/Magic University is quite a handy structure to have next to your town or nearby, as it most likely will create a foundation for Hero skills. The Library/Veteran's Guild seems OK, but only focuses on one side of the spectrum.
Altar of Skill can be a good structure, useful for skills that have progressed. Therefore most effective later in the game.

I would have liked to see these buildings have a more 'interactive' aspect, as there needs to be more academy's for specialised skills. Such as the 'School of Chaos Magic'. This would not only increase the numbers of Guilds, but give heroes more opportunities to acquire a new skill.

"A good thing with two way Portals is that you can choose your destination."

Yes, this would be a good point for many others, too. A query, though, would it be possible to choose between a rwo-way portal that is still shrouded by the Fog of War? I have a feeling the answer is no.

"Oasis: +10 Movement this day. (Usually worth the visit.)"

It seems as though these structures give more movement points than in Heroes III. Perhaps a more treasured location in Heroes IV....

"Rating Movement structures: The bonuses and selections are good. But you should be told and be able to review what bonuses you have at any one time. the interface to the user in the form of feedback and review options needs to be enhanced."

Agreed on the first section of your analysis. Can't really comment on the others as yet, maybe tomorrow that may be different..
It seems as though movement around the map is somewhat striaghtforward, but these structures change that, by having creative bonuses, such as the stables, and Rally Flag.

"With Luck and Morale now reaching between -10 and +10 you would expect some locations with a better boost than +1 and +2"

Yes, I would have liked the bonuses to reach at maximum +6 or +5. If one loses luck and morale, it is quite difficult to regain the lost bonuses gained from having high morale or luck.

"Rating Temporary Boosts: Ok, but I had hopes for more."

Yep. I would have to agree here. There just doesn't seem to be enough availability and diversity when getting a temporary boost. Maybe NWC & 3D0 believed these type of boosts were secondary to others, and therefore not giving them enough attention.

"These are improved. You can now have shrines of any level for any magic. And you can configure the spells."

This certainly is an improvement to the 'Shrines of the 2nd Circle' in Heroes II. I'm happy about this change.
It is also a positive that one can configure the spells learnt.

"There are now 17 different creature banks."

This seems very positive. As in Heroes three I only recall about 5. (Cyclops, Medusa, DragonFly etc..)

"You're no longer surrounded by the enemy."

The point above this I'm not too fussed about but this change seems illogical. It was excellent when the unique set up of a combat was used. It gave the combat more depth, and actually felt like you were being attacked.

"Rating: Good, but room for improvement."(Oracles)

Hmmm. Maybe the room for improvent could be elimintated by recieving another more creative reward, rather than an artifact or resouces.

"There are some news here, but I had hoped for something more. A treasure bank, pirate dwelling, and sea sanctuary."

What happened to the Giant Ceoclanath Jaws? Hae they also disappeared?

"These(Observatories) should preferably be flaggable"

Yes, I was actually thinking of this myself. As now the Windmills and Anonymous recource producers are flagged, and have a joint purpose with this structure: Remove the Fog of War. Although Windmills and Waterwheels also produce resources, they eliminate FoW, just as the Observatories do.

"Seems possible to tailor the Prisoner more."

I think prisons are quite a worthy addition in its own right. I believe it may be a little too early to judge and make changes to them. They have yet to be thouroughly explored, as you said.

"Most of the other terrains are improved."

Hmmm... Mixed opinions from others. Some say the 'Forest Terrain' (Preserve Native) needs to be improved. It seems as though there are just a few trees.

Yes, I believe that there are many more structures and objects to choose from. I think there may be a great deal more, maybe 50 or so?

Good analysis, Djive. Look forward to what other people think of this.....
____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

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Thunder
Thunder


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted April 18, 2002 11:11 PM

I think that boost from the Rally Flag is permanent. Have you tried visiting it with creatures only?

Hut of the Magi could also be flagable.
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Camelnor
Camelnor


Famous Hero
Also known as Blue Camel
posted April 19, 2002 12:35 AM

Hut of Magi FLAGGABLE?  

Sheesh, I hate how everyone wants everything FLAGGABLE, I liked Heroes 2, where ONLY mines were flagged, and not external creature dwellings...

I mean, if I go to Wal-Mart to buy something, and then leave, do I suddenly OWN that Wal-Mart???

Not to mention, flagging everything looks REALLY tacky...
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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted April 19, 2002 12:55 AM

I agree that it makes little sense to flag a Marketplace. You don't get to own it because you trade there.

But if it's a war and you take a tactical observation point. Would you not want to be sure that you control that observation point?

With the FoW you also need non-mines and non-towns that are flaggable. Otherwise you end up with large portions of the map which have FoW.

The only element you have which serves like this right now is the Garrison(and this object is  abit bulky and doesn't fit everywhere). For a strategic lookout point it would not be wrong to allow you to defend it by troops. So adding a garrison to it is not a bad idea.

This is not the same with the Marketplace. If you send troops to a Marketplace, the only thin you can hope to accomplish is to destroy the Map Object and loot it and this (destroying map objects) is somethig which is generally not allowed in H4.

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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"

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bjorn190
bjorn190


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jebus maker
posted April 19, 2002 01:12 AM

Great post guys, I think that hamsi128 should get a quality point for this, donīt you think? =D

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted April 19, 2002 11:36 AM
Edited By: Djive on 22 Apr 2002

Towns are quite good, as the focus has been taken off creatures to some extent, as the emergance of Caravans, Prisons, and Mage Guilds have given something more for a hero to do in a town expect gather creatures.

=> I was speaking on the things you could set through the Map Editor here. I will review the towns by themselves (if I get time), but this is an extensive topic suitable for another thread.

The Library/Veteran's Guild seems OK, but only focuses on one side of the spectrum.

=> This was not perhaps clear but all of the structures do. No structure teaches both a might and a magic skill.

Altar of Skill can be a good structure, useful for skills that have progressed. Therefore most effective later in the game.

=> Actually, they're often used to get your character allegible for an advanced class early in the game. However, you usually select the appropriate character to take the skill. Early in the game you can't afford all tuition, but altars are free of charge.

I would have liked to see these buildings have a more 'interactive' aspect, as there needs to be more academy's for specialised skills. Such as the 'School of Chaos Magic'. This would not only increase the numbers of Guilds, but give heroes more opportunities to acquire a new skill.

=> The altars is for aparticular skill. It will either give you the basic primary skill a secondary skill or upgrade a skill you have. The one restricting thing about it is that you're not give a choice which to study (in the cases where a choice is possible).

Yes, this would be a good point for many others, too. A query, though, would it be possible to choose between a rwo-way portal that is still shrouded by the Fog of War? I have a feeling the answer is no.

=> Yes, you will usually move to a shrouded location. The point of the two-way portals is to transport you to new territory.

=> On shrines I believe both H2 and H3 offered up to 3rd level spells in the shrines.

Yep. I would have to agree here. There just doesn't seem to be enough availability and diversity when getting a temporary boost. Maybe NWC & 3D0 believed these type of boosts were secondary to others, and therefore not giving them enough attention.

=> What is a bit unappropriate is that low level spells will give you a maximum/minimum value of the stat. So poof and all your hard work in gathering morale/luck is ruined. Or poof, all your morale penalties for mixing troops are erased.


I think prisons are quite a worthy addition in its own right.

=> Prisons were part of H3, and you could tailor the prisoner already then. Customizations is a bit better now but was not bad in H3.


Edited to Add:
The rally Flag does add movement bonuses to creatures also. Usually it doesn't last that long because when you add monsters to a stack the bonus will disappear.

It also appears that the bonus wears of at some point, but I haven't looked into this further.


____________
"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"

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Pure_Chaos
Pure_Chaos


Bad-mannered
Known Hero
Destroyer of Morons
posted April 19, 2002 01:51 PM

I was shocked to discover that Observatories are not flaggable. The makes them almost useless. That is one of the things that drives me nuts.

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DonGio
DonGio


Promising
Famous Hero
of Clear Water Mountain Clan
posted April 22, 2002 12:49 PM

I really hate observatories. The view they give you don't remove the fog of war! How lame is that?

And a suggestion in the flagging discussion:

How about if you had to leave troops at buildings (except mines) in order to flag them?

Cause if you went to wal-mart, then stationed a garrison outside, then you *would* own wal-mart!
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Columbus
Columbus


Hired Hero
posted April 22, 2002 02:39 PM

Quote:
Power-ups
=========
Improvement wishes:
Offer the player a selection of skills that can be upgraded, rather than letting the computer select one at random.
Make it configurable how many upgrades that each hero can get at a library. (Default should be one.)
Another possibility is to limit the benefit by requiring that a certain time must expire between two visits by one hero. Say 1 Month.

Observatories
=============

As before there are a number of these.

Improvement suggestion: These should preferably be flaggable (remove shroud in an smaller area around it while it remains flagged). When visited it should remove shroud in a greater area until end of turn. The "Fogged" area is not good enough.

The "Eye of The Magi", should also remove the Fog until End of turn.

Rating: Poor. Needs to be improved.


I have an issue with these two points that perhaps Djive didn't consider enough

The AI is not as good as in previous games. However what it does do is use the Fog of War well (whether this is intentional by the programmers or just the way it's turned out I don't know)

If observatories become flaggable the AI will become even more easy to beat

Secondly, the point about hero power-ups boil down to improved player control over skill selection and more bonuses.

Now not only does this give the human player an advatage against the AI and inexperienced human opponents but it also slides the game balance towards heroes rather than troops

None of these are desirable outcomes

So while I've shared the moments of frustration as you get offered useless skills or you forget for the fifth time what's guarding the goldmine let's not urge NWC to basically make the game easier. It would make the game less enjoyable

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted April 22, 2002 04:29 PM
Edited By: Djive on 22 Apr 2002

"Now not only does this give the human player an advatage against the AI and inexperienced human opponents but it also slides the game balance towards heroes rather than troops."

There are two skills that can be extremely annoying to get if you don't want them. I've actually experienced both. These two are Summoning and Necromancy, when getting them on a Stealth/Pathifnding Hero who you want to travel alone (or at the very least with no slow troops).

I don't think the proposal gives much of an advantage. Since the structure is capable of giving you either skill, and you will quite possibly be offered ANOTHER skill if you save and then reload I'd say just give the player a choice.

Also be aware that almost all your customizations for the game or on the skills you select for your hero, and you may be stuck with that customization for a VERY long time (and that can be quite a long time if you play a campaign). Then why let a Random Choice made by the AI ruin it for you?

The idea for making things revisitable was simply to not force the map maker to fill the map with this type of structure or to use a quest building (and tie it with complicated scripts) to get the same effect.

There's nothing saying the ai is poor at selecting skills.  The Ai defeciency does not lie in choices offered but in failing to visit boosters to begin with, even if the boost is free of charge. Besides, skills are overall balanced so I'm finding that often the choice doesn't make all that much difference. Once you've selected an advanced class almost all your increases fall within that advanced class.

Besides the mentioned examples of Summoning and Necromancy are probably really hurtful to the Ai. Sometimes the thing to do is simply to dismiss creatures that you didn't want to begin with, and dismissing creatures is something I believe the Ai won't do lightly.

I think I considered this enough. Hero development is non-existant for high level heroes and the hero won't improve at the rate that monster stacks increase. Late game the hero suffers from this. The ONLY way to boost your hero is to:
a) Visit a new Tree of Knowledge
b) Visit a new Library/Veteran's Guild

(There exist several more ways to get skills at Basic level, but these two are the only ones available to increase a developed skill.)

To gain a level the normal way would take one or several hours of game-play, and in fact the map may not contain enough monsters to take you to next level even if you defeat all. If your hero can't improve through battle or any other conceivable way in the forseeable future of the game, then I'm tending to just skip the game and do something else ...

You also have the effect with starting a campaign with a carry-over hero. In that case 99% of your power from the first weeks will come from the hero simply because you've reset the monster stacks to 0.

Besides, I'm not developing one hero when I play. I'm usually developing several. Having 3-5 active heroes at any one time is the common way to play the game. (And even then I sometimes despair because none of them develope!)

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undead_wolf_...
undead_wolf_lad


Adventuring Hero
Undead Wolf Wrangler
posted April 22, 2002 09:28 PM

NWC should just focus on improving the AI and then it's a moot point...(observatories and opening up the FoW)

yes, the observatories should completely remove the FoW for the duration of your turn. Your next turn would return it to the grayed out view.

Excellent original post.
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Columbus
Columbus


Hired Hero
posted April 23, 2002 02:47 PM

Quote:
Summoning and Necromancy on a Stealth/Pathifnding Hero


Yes, but there are other solutions - avoid altars and Libraries or even avoid Nature and Death completely on your Stealth hero

Quote:
I don't think the proposal gives much of an advantage.
Yes it does because some skills are better than others. It means level 5 spellcasting, GM Necromancy, GM Pathfinding etc significantly quicker

Quote:
if you save and then reload
Most people won't do this for something like skill selection - you might as well use a cheat

Quote:
you may be stuck with that customization for a VERY long time ... Then why let a Random Choice made by the AI ruin it for you?

because it keeps the game a little more challenging

Quote:
The idea for making things revisitable was simply to not force the map maker to fill the map with this type of structure or to use a quest building (and tie it with complicated scripts) to get the same effect.

but it's a huge boost. As people have commented elsewhere you have practically infinite time because the AI is so slow. And this could allow people to take game years on a single map and end up with a 10th level hero with all 5 skill areas maxxed out!

Quote:
There's nothing saying the ai is poor at selecting skills.
Of course it is. have you ever seen the AI max Combat. I've seen many 6th-10th level barbarians and they fall over if you sneeze on them, a human player would have GM Combat at level 5

Quote:
Hero development is non-existant for high level heroes
Very high levels indeed. A Black Dragon is worth 1200 exp so if you kill a hundred you get 120 000 for just one fight, adjusted for difficulty. I got Warjac over level 30 in about 8 hours and that was just bumbling around the map looking at everything

Quote:
the map may not contain enough monsters to take you to next level even if you defeat all.

Ah, here we come down to why are you playing. Do you really need to have an 80th level hero when you can beat the map with an 18th level one? Also, if someone designs a really epic campaign with hundreds of monsters and many maps you could get a very high level hero indeed, without using trees

Quote:
If your hero can't improve through battle or any other conceivable way in the forseeable future of the game, then I'm tending to just skip the game and do something else ...

I'm sorry, you should have finished the map LONG before you hit that stage

Quote:
Having 3-5 active heroes at any one time is the common way to play the game. (And even then I sometimes despair because none of them develope!)



Are we playing the same game? Lysander campaign, everyone got to level 25 or so, Barbarian campaign Warjac got to level 30 and did it on his own, without troops after level 6 or so

There simply is nothing to do with a level 80 hero! You will have beaten the campaign or scenario fifty times. You might as well say
week 3 = 1 black dragon
week 5 = 3 black dragons
week 10 = 8 black dragons and I win
Why do my dragons stop growing?
Arggh
You've won, game's finished, your hero retires and grows potatoes and you have to start a new one!


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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted April 23, 2002 04:24 PM

Quote:
Quote:
Summoning and Necromancy on a Stealth/Pathifnding Hero


Yes, but there are other solutions - avoid altars and Libraries or even avoid Nature and Death completely on your Stealth hero

=> This is not a serious suggestion I hope. You have to let the appropriate heroes take these structures. If you  don't visit altars/libraries for your best heroes, then these heroes will soon no longer be your best heroes!

Quote:
I don't think the proposal gives much of an advantage.
Yes it does because some skills are better than others. It means level 5 spellcasting, GM Necromancy, GM Pathfinding etc significantly quicker

=> I've NOT noticed that the skills are imbalanced. You do best with a healthy amount of all of them, and spread them out between different heroes.

Quote:
if you save and then reload
Most people won't do this for something like skill selection - you might as well use a cheat

=> Or they live with the frustration of having to dismiss units each turn.

because it keeps the game a little more challenging

=> It adds nothing to the challenge! It just adds frustration!

but it's a huge boost. As people have commented elsewhere you have practically infinite time because the AI is so slow. And this could allow people to take game years on a single map and end up with a 10th level hero with all 5 skill areas maxxed out!

=> The Ai is not always as bad as some people picture it out. My guess is that if you start the Ai off with a prebuilt city then it will do fairly well. I've actually seen some good plays from the Ai also.

=> Ai is slow?? Part of the problem is likely that the Ai is too fast on making decisions. Myself I'd happily have accepted longer waiting time and better Ai decisions.

=> The skills are not everything. You have to boost your level also since some skills are level related, such as your Hitpoints and Damage.

=> I say give the freedom to the mapmakers to do what they want. Do not unnecessarily restrict them. Some players (like me) like having maxed out characters and being given choices on character developement often.

=> Personally, I also find all the complaints against H3 for getting maxed out characters in secondary skills were unfounded. Most single scenarios I played with M and L maps, I maxed out the secondary skills more or less 2-3 combats before the end, which I believe is pretty much perfect. Too bad they changed this for skeleton-developed characters in H4.

Of course it is. have you ever seen the AI max Combat. I've seen many 6th-10th level barbarians and they fall over if you sneeze on them, a human player would have GM Combat at level 5.

=> I usually don't develope combat myself until a bit later. I try to stay away from the Combat---XXX advanced classes because they are so easy to get and so hard to stay away from.

=> And I have seen the Ai max out combat early and I've seen it do it later.

Quote:
Hero development is non-existant for high level heroes
Very high levels indeed. A Black Dragon is worth 1200 exp so if you kill a hundred you get 120 000 for just one fight, adjusted for difficulty. I got Warjac over level 30 in about 8 hours and that was just bumbling around the map looking at everything.

=> Sure but look at the prospects for that character...

=> Say it took 8 hours to get to level 30. Then it takes:
0.2 * 8 = 1.6 hours gameplay to take your character to the next level. You want to spend that much time to get to the next level?

=> It's either that or find a Tree of Knowledge you have not yet visited. (And I suspect that most of the level-ups at higher levels were from Trees and not from Battles.)

Ah, here we come down to why are you playing. Do you really need to have an 80th level hero when you can beat the map with an 18th level one? Also, if someone designs a really epic campaign with hundreds of monsters and many maps you could get a very high level hero indeed, without using trees.

=> I disagree. The Xp required increases with 20% per level from some point. It starts to get really tedious at around level 30. I don't require to have a 70th level Hero, that's why I'm suggesting better control over the skills you do get offered and more skill offerings.

Quote:
If your hero can't improve through battle or any other conceivable way in the forseeable future of the game, then I'm tending to just skip the game and do something else ...

I'm sorry, you should have finished the map LONG before you hit that stage

=> If you look at the shipped Campaings, when you are at the last level campaign your heroes are of such a level that level-ups are becoming very rare. The skills you get comes almost exclusively from Altars, Guilds and Libraries. Just look at it this way. Four levels => Double the Xp you have now.

=> If you're saying that I should have completed the Map in the first Month, then what's your real objection to have Libraries revisitible after the first month? It's a moot point to you since you have already finished the game.

Quote:
Having 3-5 active heroes at any one time is the common way to play the game. (And even then I sometimes despair because none of them develope!)



Are we playing the same game? Lysander campaign, everyone got to level 25 or so, Barbarian campaign Warjac got to level 30 and did it on his own, without troops after level 6 or so

=> Melee Heroes develope fast in the beginning when you improve their Secondary skills in melee. Also be aware that the Campaign Heroes suffer from an overdose of boosters to attack, defence and damage skills making them much tougher than they would otherwise be. Without all of these boosters, once you have GM combat, archery and melee the hero's developement becomes linear.

=> Also be aware that the campaigns seems to be designed so that the hero can take on most monster stacks by themselves.

=> So if you developed the above skills then you would have GM in all of them at level 12 and that character would be powerful. However, the combat skills cannot improve further so from that point onwards all you can do is to visit structures that gives boost to Attack, Defence or Damage values.


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Columbus
Columbus


Hired Hero
posted April 25, 2002 03:04 PM

Briefly, heroes are good enough

If they weren't people would buy troops and not use them

And as for heroes being slow to develop past level 30 I don't care and don't think it matters


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phoenixiv
phoenixiv


Hired Hero
posted March 26, 2011 09:00 AM

when i put put a mountain in HOMM4 and i want to do it again, like copy, how do I do?
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