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Kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted January 01, 2018 11:10 PM |
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The only true future for Heroes these days is... Fan made content. Your ERA, your VCMI, your HotA, and the rest I don't give a damn about.
Let's be frank(and you can be Garth if you want, sure) here. TBS games don't sell well these days, they don't play well along the newer generations of gamers. In fact they're quite the niche genre, we all know that.
So... If a new sequel is greenlighted for Erwin to screw up, it WILL suck the big one. maybe even the biggest one there is.
But that is not likely, seeing that the game pretty much flopped with mediocre reviews and all that crap, and Might and Magic franchise is a money hemorrhage for the company anyways. not even the "remasters" worked, as most of us bought or torrented the GoG version.
And that is the bottom line. Dollars are all that matter in this instance. Always.
You want a good Heroes game? try the stuff the fans make.
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted January 01, 2018 11:15 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 23:35, 01 Jan 2018.
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gemeaux333 said:
HOMM6 is the one which sold the best in the entire series
This doesn't mean H6 was good, this means H5 was good. Because people liked H5, they bought H6. H7 sold the worst, meaning people were more cautious after H6 and waited for reviews first, which were globally awful.
NB. Verriker would say this much better but he's been missing.
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted January 01, 2018 11:17 PM |
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From the little I know, it's my impression HoMM 6 is an unfinished, discontinued and partly unplayable game that mainly sold well due to pre ordering.
But I haven't played the game, so many others will know much more than me.
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thGryphn
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted January 01, 2018 11:40 PM |
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Edited by thGryphn at 23:53, 01 Jan 2018.
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OhforfSake said:
From the little I know, it's my impression HoMM 6 is an unfinished, discontinued and partly unplayable game that mainly sold well due to pre ordering.
But I haven't played the game, so many others will know much more than me.
To be fair, while H6 was very buggy at release, they fixed it with patches and along with the expansion, it's a good game (except for the fact that the skill system and the dynasty idea just did not feel 'Heroes' like and alienated a lot of people). H6 is a much much much better project and gaming experience than H7 (which actually has better ideas, a better game design and much better 'Heroes' feel) which they left buggy as hell and unfinished. H7 also sucks because instead of creating new assets, they reused a ton from H6.
Mainly H6 sucked not only because it failed as a game, but because it failed as a 'Heroes' game. I played all its campaigns plus the expansions, but I would never go back to playing it.
Also, Ashan sucks big time, and H7 story is the biggest fail ever. Playing the campaigns that has to follow a story of a history (something that already happened)? Bad idea. Doesn't give any actual role to the player (like you're making history), thus no excitement and real entertainment. H6 was similar but H7 is to the extreme. Overall, Ashan sucks because it locks in and forces everything on to the player.
So, if they're going to make a new game, ever, they need to put Ashan in the trashcan and start anew, with a good lore and history, but putting the player in the driver's seat to write the rest of the history.
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Avonu
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
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posted January 02, 2018 10:56 AM |
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Edited by Avonu at 10:58, 02 Jan 2018.
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thGryphn said:
To be fair, while H6 was very buggy at release, they fixed it with patches and along with the expansion, it's a good game (except for the fact that the skill system and the dynasty idea just did not feel 'Heroes' like and alienated a lot of people).
To be fair, while H7 was very buggy at realease, they fixed it with patches and along with expansion, it's a medicore game (but close to good game borders) and it's skill system is a lot better than in previous games (except Heroes 4-5 but for other reasons).
H6 is not a good game, not even medicore one. It need to be "always online", has limited save space (IIRC 10 online and 10 off-line saves), has broken Dynasty weapons (which not work offline), no RMG, crappy map editor and only few maps beside campaigns, no warfare machines, all factions have the same gameplay (or too similar), limited economy and adventure map, broken skill system, weak champions (and too strong core units), Sanctuary is overpowered on water maps, and it still have many game-breaking bugs like black screen (problems with graphic cards) or increasing spell cost (bugged dynasty weapons). Some of skills and abilities still not work correctly after so many patches. Oh, and there isn't any AI for enemies, only cheats.
It has some positive things, like Bosses for example, but overall this game is not good.
Heroes 7 has its problems, but after expansion it's playeable. Skill system is a much improvement over H6 (not big deal) and over H2-3 one, but is inferior to H4 (much better combination of skills and advanced classes) and H5 (no synergies between abilities and unlocked new perks). Expansion also changed a lot with heroes builds (no more restrictions for skills and their mastery) and rised level cap (from 30 to 999).
Also Heroes 7 has warfare units, which can be "upgraded" via Warfare skill, and also 2 champions to choose from (like in Heroes 4 but you can always demolish their building and replace it with your choise). Also adventure map ais richer than in Heroes 6, has better economy (4 rare resources vs. 1 in H6), towns has building trees again and you have more no-creature generator ones.
Heroes 7 also has RMG and it works - it's not great but it's playable. IMO map editor also is easier to work with.
Oh, and I nearly forget - game is easy modable.
There are however bugs, lots of them. Game is also need a much better PC then H6. And AI is stupid (but at least it is, not like in H6, where there only were scripts and cheats for AI players).
thGryphn said:
Also, Ashan sucks big time, and H7 story is the biggest fail ever. Playing the campaigns that has to follow a story of a history (something that already happened)? Bad idea. Doesn't give any actual role to the player (like you're making history), thus no excitement and real entertainment. H6 was similar but H7 is to the extreme. Overall, Ashan sucks because it locks in and forces everything on to the player.
Agree. Ashan campaigns are dull. And we know that since Heroes 5, so it's not like only Heroes 7 has this problem. Nevertheless for me HoMM always was about maps and random generated maps, not about campaigns. And here Heroes 7 has advantage over Heroes 6.
____________
"When someone desires information, they come to me."
"Details are everything."
Pipiru piru piru pipiru pi!
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thGryphn
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted January 02, 2018 11:24 AM |
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Edited by thGryphn at 11:26, 02 Jan 2018.
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Avonu said:
To be fair, while H7 was very buggy at realease, they fixed it with patches
Really now, come on...
As I said, H7 is a truer Heroes game than H6, it has (had) great potential.
If you never had played any Heroes game, H6 is pretty good game. As a Heroes game, it's dull as hell, and aside from Bosses, all its new ideas failed. Online only issue is terrible agreed. Balance issues existed for any Heroes game. But come on, you can't compare it to H7 in terms of bugs and completeness...
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 02, 2018 11:35 AM |
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Edited by Elvin at 11:43, 02 Jan 2018.
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Avonu said:
H6 is not a good game, not even medicore one. It need to be "always online", has limited save space (IIRC 10 online and 10 off-line saves), has broken Dynasty weapons (which not work offline), no RMG, crappy map editor and only few maps beside campaigns, no warfare machines, all factions have the same gameplay (or too similar), limited economy and adventure map, broken skill system, weak champions (and too strong core units), Sanctuary is overpowered on water maps, and it still have many game-breaking bugs like black screen (problems with graphic cards) or increasing spell cost (bugged dynasty weapons). Some of skills and abilities still not work correctly after so many patches. Oh, and there isn't any AI for enemies, only cheats.
It has some positive things, like Bosses for example, but overall this game is not good.
This reminds me that to properly enjoy either of those two games you have to.. completely overlook some parts. Completely. Case in point the conflux or DW bs in H6. Both have unacceptable parts that you'll have to either turn a blind eye or hope they won't bother you enough to overshadow the good parts.
For me the absolute gamebreakers are loading times and boring combat, ensuring I would never play H7 for long even if I liked it that much. But then H6's decent combat at the expense of adventure map leave it to the same fate.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 02, 2018 12:33 PM |
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No, there is no future for Heroes. The franchise is effectively dead. The only thing that can revive my interest in it is a genuinely good game, be it Heroes 8, MMXI, or whatever else. Which is highly unlikely to happen. Luckily, there is no shortage of great titles on the market to try out.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted January 02, 2018 04:54 PM |
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Edited by kiryu133 at 17:02, 02 Jan 2018.
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Kipshasz said:
The only true future for Heroes these days is... Fan made content. Your ERA, your VCMI, your HotA, and the rest I don't give a damn about.
Let's be frank(and you can be Garth if you want, sure) here. TBS games don't sell well these days, they don't play well along the newer generations of gamers. In fact they're quite the niche genre, we all know that.
So... If a new sequel is greenlighted for Erwin to screw up, it WILL suck the big one. maybe even the biggest one there is.
But that is not likely, seeing that the game pretty much flopped with mediocre reviews and all that crap, and Might and Magic franchise is a money hemorrhage for the company anyways. not even the "remasters" worked, as most of us bought or torrented the GoG version.
I don't think that's true. I think it's more plausible that publishers just *decided* TBS's don't sell and just stopped putting effort into it. It's exactly what they did with Horror and other strategy games and yet Horror has suddenly turned huge again and there are continuous examples of successful TBS's (XCOM, CIV, TW etc.)
Jim makes a pretty good point about it here and here (about horror primarily but still relevant)
____________
It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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Kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted January 02, 2018 09:36 PM |
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X-com, Civilisation and Total War games didn't flopped. They were widely successful, even with X-com being a dumbed down reboot( I still think in terms of difficulty and challenge, Xenonauts is a superior game in that aspect), but it was dumbed down right, while some mechanics were simplified, it still presented a good challenge.
And we all know that Civilisation has a horde of loyal fanhorde on par with Nintendo zealots, so... go figure.
And Total War series always been great, even with some hiccups(I've heard people complained about Empire and Napoleon), and now, they brought in all the butthurt AoS haters from their tabletops, to relive the glory of Warhammer Fantasy. And that's a sizeable horde of fanboys on itself.
____________
"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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Baronus
Legendary Hero
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posted January 02, 2018 09:42 PM |
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I think that fall of Ubi "MM" opened a big future for MM. This future is JVC. :-) Everybody knows now, that there is no MM without Jon. Its only shadow of MM. Small CQ is better than big part of Ubi "MM" products. As a game legend MM must be liberated from corpo system. Kickstarter foundrising, modding its future. Big part of content from players from the begin. As we see in forum here :-)
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 02, 2018 09:57 PM |
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JVC is great but he sold the series and that's that.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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gemeaux333
Known Hero
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posted January 02, 2018 10:20 PM |
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HOMM6 have been really appreciated by the newest players, as is TBS games thanks to XCOM, and new players come to try the experience of HOMM6 along those who come back with some regularity to replay this experience with an everlasting pleasure as well as it's direct sequel "Heroes Online" (heavily based on HOMM6)
HOMM6 worked because it's the perfect example of a license/concept that was able to modernise itself, and the dynastie system made the game rewarding for every single effort made by the player, unlike HOMM7 that was a 100% the negation of HOMM6, keeping all the cons of the previous games without the pros of HOMM6 !
When it comes to JVC, he is out of the loop for at least 15 years, his first mistake was to give the leadership of NWC to 3DO which gave the development of HOMM2 PoL to Cyberlore, then they just no longer gone along since 3DO had financial issues before they literrally gone bankrupcy all together...
I have been mad against Black-Hole for a long time due to their attitude but finally figured out they did a pretty decent job in comparison to Limbic...
Perhaps Virtuos of Firaxis could do the next HOMM game, validating all of the assets/improvement of HOMM6 by the way
MMX : Legacy was great too, just wish they had polished it more, but as least this one is heavily modable even for those who can simply modify a text file
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted January 02, 2018 10:22 PM |
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Kipshasz said:
X-com, Civilisation and Total War games didn't flopped. They were widely successful, even with X-com being a dumbed down reboot( I still think in terms of difficulty and challenge, Xenonauts is a superior game in that aspect), but it was dumbed down right, while some mechanics were simplified, it still presented a good challenge.
And we all know that Civilisation has a horde of loyal fanhorde on par with Nintendo zealots, so... go figure.
And Total War series always been great, even with some hiccups(I've heard people complained about Empire and Napoleon), and now, they brought in all the butthurt AoS haters from their tabletops, to relive the glory of Warhammer Fantasy. And that's a sizeable horde of fanboys on itself.
that's the point. There *IS* an audience. Ubisoft has just decided there isn't with no proof and put effort in accordingly. If they were to actually try and make a good game said audience would gulp that stuff up.
____________
It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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Kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted January 02, 2018 10:35 PM |
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Ubi has a point. There is no audience for their garbage Zeroes games full off Warhammer rip-offs.
Let's face it. Heroes 5 was successful only due to the large nostalgia factor it had(some lineups were nearly identical to Heroes3, Haven is the most obvious here), and it had some good concepts (alt upgrades), and in general it was a good reboot (that's right, a REBOOT), but they bleeped it all up. The new setting mainly, and the aim to "appeal" to broader audience. Only similar thing to that is trying to appease the SJW types, and we all know how well that ends up (look at Marvel)
Hindsight is 20 bleeping 20 here, but the devs, with Erwan le moron should've listened to the fanbase. The customer is always right you know.
____________
"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted January 02, 2018 11:40 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 23:50, 02 Jan 2018.
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@Kip
True that they lost a lot of old players with h5 because of the ripped-off graphics -killing the original feel of the series- as well as the transition to 3d. However, since they somehow managed to keep a similar gameplay -with even some improvements such as the skill system- the game was good enough to gather a new fandom and profit, so technically this game was a success. Of course, if only they had kept artists like Tracy Iwata (who's done and is still doing an outstanding job in CQ) along 2d graphics or at least a more subtle 3d like in AoW3 for instance, they would have not only gathered new fans but also kept the old ones, and it would have been a massive phenomenon, IMO. Of course I blame it all on Ashan, and I've explained in details why through a few posts in the 'should ashan be scrapped' thread run by Lizzy you can find in the h7 subforum.
Then they tried to be innovative with h6 and we all know how that went... And h7 doesn't even exist, it was stillborn.
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Kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted January 03, 2018 12:52 AM |
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speaking of trashcan, I think I know where they got the lore basis from. They ripped off another TBS gem – Disciples. very similar, but instead of gods and fallen angels, we have dragon “gods„. which is a nod to Warcraft's Dragon Aspects.
You have to give them credit for one thing - they're amazing at ripping stuff off.
____________
"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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imid
Hired Hero
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posted January 03, 2018 01:41 AM |
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Galaad said:
@Kip
True that they lost a lot of old players with h5 because of the ripped-off graphics -killing the original feel of the series- as well as the transition to 3d. However, since they somehow managed to keep a similar gameplay -with even some improvements such as the skill system- the game was good enough to gather a new fandom and profit, so technically this game was a success. Of course, if only they had kept artists like Tracy Iwata (who's done and is still doing an outstanding job in CQ) along 2d graphics or at least a more subtle 3d like in AoW3 for instance, they would have not only gathered new fans but also kept the old ones, and it would have been a massive phenomenon, IMO. Of course I blame it all on Ashan, and I've explained in details why through a few posts in the 'should ashan be scrapped' thread run by Lizzy you can find in the h7 subforum.
Then they tried to be innovative with h6 and we all know how that went... And h7 doesn't even exist, it was stillborn.
This is a point of view I completely agree with. Thinking of how HOTA team is doing stuff or how hard Quantomas tries to push the AI and comparing with the work of Erwan's team, I see no future for heroes with UBIsh*t. I insist that it is a matter of IQ, passion, and understanding of what a good game means. AOW 3 is a great game, I guess Erwan just tried to still some ideas from there, but to still and implement in the right way requires a minimum IQ, which, unfortunately, Le Breton lacks. H7 is the lowest garbage in the history of computer games, I'm not even sure why people are still mentioning it. happy 2018 to everybody!!!
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gemeaux333
Known Hero
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posted January 04, 2018 12:25 AM |
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Erwann le Breton is a great man, the only one to truly understand what true MM fans feels (the silent majority of MM fans I mean, not the fanboys who are the most annoying of the entire world)
Besides, if you look at theses wonderfull creations of HOMM6 called the Conflux Orbs, you see threw the messages (a medium amount of 1 message per day and per orb keeps being posted everyday)that the game is really beloved, HOMM7 sucks, they all regret the support of HOMM6 endend and wish HOMM8 to be fully based of HOMM6
HOMM5 is just like HOMM7, borring and a financial Blach-Hole, no taking risks, ugly graphics taking 50% of the budget of the game, bad scenery/scenario and dialogues...
HOMM6 clearly succeeded in all those domains where HOMM5 and 7 failed/sucked
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 04, 2018 01:08 AM |
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Edited by Stevie at 01:09, 04 Jan 2018.
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Kipshasz said:
speaking of trashcan, I think I know where they got the lore basis from. They ripped off another TBS gem – Disciples. very similar, but instead of gods and fallen angels, we have dragon “gods„. which is a nod to Warcraft's Dragon Aspects.
You have to give them credit for one thing - they're amazing at ripping stuff off.
Having played Disciples, not once have I felt that they ripped off of it.
Also, Ubisoft tried to be in the best interest of the game since the beginning. They tried to buy NWC away from 3DO and even contacted JVC after the company's bankruptcy to work on Heroes 5, but they were met with refusal at every step. So, as incompetent as they later proved to be at handling the series, no one can blame them that they didn't try to preserve its legacy.
JVC, on the other hand, abandoned M&M to its downfall having been given the opportunity to continue developing it by Ubisoft, and despite how loudly that fact speaks for itself, people still herald him as the one and only savior that the franchise needs. It's almost comical.
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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