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lantranar
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 11, 2018 09:19 PM |
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Elvin said:
I am actually curious, what did heroes online do well other than returning hexes? I don't have the slightest idea how the game played out or even how quests worked. And what about might and magic class mechanics, is there some place to check it up?
-hex
-flank sytem: attack from the hex behind troop deal 100% more attack , whereas attacks from the 2 diagonal hex behind troops deal only 50% more. (not sure, might be 50% and 25%). It works much better than H7 flank system as the hexes look more intuitive than squaregrid.
-guard position: Units in defend mode can stop enemy movement at the 3 hexes in front of it. This makes positioning more interesting. Melee units can actually protect ranged unit instead of just stand there and let enemy charge right through.
-Range attack and defend move can be executed AFTER a unit has finished its move.
-range attacks generally has a limited range, this force range units to move around instead of sitting in 1 one place in most Hmm games.
-each stack has a cap, this is personally my favorite implementation. It adds some individual flavor to how you build your army, theoretically. (later on you ll still have some optimal build due to some imbalances, not sure they fixed it yet)
-magic hero has 1 less stack compared to might hero as a tradeoff for 1 more action per turn.
JollyJoker said:
It should have been called Chores of Might and Magic. Or Heroes of Boredom.
wholeheartedly agree, but if we disregard the business model and progression system (which is most of the game), we still have a good shell that a good Hmm game should be based on.
gemeaux333 said:
Well, the quests in Heroes Online are pretty much like in WOW
When it come to gameplay, Heroes Online take a lot from King's Bounty (more than HOMM) especially with the leadership stat, some in the closed beta joked about the fact it should have been called, King's Bounty Online or King's Bounty of Might and Magic
what was leadership like in closed beta? I only played it for a few weeks after it launched.
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gemeaux333
Known Hero
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posted November 11, 2018 09:35 PM |
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Well in closed beta the Leadership stat was clearly displayed in the heroes stats the total amount you have (with these precisions) :
- 1 Leadership point for a Core unit
- 5 Leadership points for a Elite unit
- 15 Leadership points for a Legendary unit
Its still works this way, but the total leadership is no longer displayed, they simply display the number of unit of each type you can deploy in their respective stacks
I don't have anything to say on the business model (most transactions are dispensable) nor the progression (just feeting)
There is some improvements that could be done, and Bluebyte will come to it in the future as it is their creation
- units earning experience
- more factions with their own storyline
- more event types (retro events like in Settlers Online would be welcome)
- etc...
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gemeaux333
Known Hero
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posted November 11, 2018 09:43 PM |
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There are some brand new AAA retro games that succeed :
https://store.steampowered.com/app/562860/
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted November 11, 2018 10:02 PM |
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I vaguely remember reading somewhere that magic heroes get a second spellcasting action at the cost of a stack. That is sort of interesting but doesn't sound quite right if you take into account high tier spells. High tier by heroes standards anyways. Maybe they haven't implemented as strong spells there? I'm also curious, how would a creature cap look at lvl 10 or lvl 15? How many core/elite/champion units would there be more or less?
How does flanking work here? Can a unit just walk behind the target to attack and get the bonus? Maybe a bit harder with guard position(interesting idea btw) but it would still be cheesy is that is the case. But what happens if the guarding unit has high speed, would it keep attackers at bay till it dies? That doesn't sound like a good thing.
Allowing attack or defense after moving sounds good. Was probably needed with the limited range to make the gameplay smoother. I like how divinity original sin allows you to use action points for movement, attacking, special abilities or a combination of them. If heroes online can smoothly implement that without action points, all the better.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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gemeaux333
Known Hero
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posted November 12, 2018 06:07 PM |
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The Magic Heroes can have up to 4 attacks by turn, and have access to the most powerfull spells of its faction and the generic ones (available for all factions) but only have 5 stacks in counterpart
At level 30, you have reached the cap for the leadership : 345, so you wind a middle of 15 points of leadership per level, so at lvel 30 :
345 core units
69 elite units
23 legendary units
in closed beta it was possible to increase further above the cap with some equipments adding leadership, but have been removed before the end of the closed beta
walking behing a target if very difficult if the unit is in defense mode, but with flying or teleporting units it is esay if you don't fear counter-attacks, escept if they have the attribute "attack and return"
a unit cannot both attack and have the defense mod during a turn (unless you grant this unit an additionnal action to do so), so either you use this unit as a "Thames seal" or as a true fighter (vulnerable to counter attacks)
for the possinility of using an action after moving, yes it is, and an additionnal option you can activate in the game's options is: "Manual facing", this one you take it if you really want to optimise you gameplay
it is also possible to modify the speed of you units in the options, this is not only comfort, this is usefull when time is in the essence (groups challenges)
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted November 16, 2018 01:09 PM |
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A cap at 20+ champions doesn't sound bad. Tbh I don't remember ever seeing such big armies in h5 multi-player, unless the map was massive and without the possibility of reaching your opponent before week 6 or so.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 16, 2018 04:15 PM |
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It does sound bad.
Elvin, Heroes Online is a CONTINUING game that continually respawns new threats and offers online battles, team quests and whatnot. You don't start "new maps", you play always on the same "live map". Once you have developed a hero, you have that hero. If there was no cap you could have millions of creatures on your hero.
The cap makes sure that you can tailor the threats in the right way. It's basically a never-ending campaign.
HoMM-like, though, isn't about playing a never-ending campaign - not even ABOUT campaigns. Yes, in campaigns there ARE (level) caps (which suck), but generally TIME plays a role as well: the faster you FINISH, the better (or, if something is too hard, you may wait and increase your army).
It's about FINISHING a map and starting a new one. Creature caps make zero sense in that specific environment, if you had those you didn't need to stack units and could do it like AoW, with single creatures, but then the game was different.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted November 16, 2018 04:26 PM |
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If you or I played online with such a cap, there is absolutely no way we'd let the opponent stall nearly that long is all I'm saying. 20 tier 7? Heh, in no heroes game.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 16, 2018 04:39 PM |
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MP, no. But the cap makes sure, you cannot wait and colect troops and wait and collect troops until you have so many that you can breeze through the quests and stuff. Once you reach the unit caps, waiting makes no sense anymore, and the caps make sure they have a pretty good idea what the players can field, so they can make things hard and incur losses.
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gemeaux333
Known Hero
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posted November 16, 2018 05:01 PM |
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And in Heroes Online, legendary/champion units are way more consistent that their equivalent of HOMM6:
around 1K HPs in Heroes Online compared to the around 300 in HOMM6, so you can no longer defeat a stack of champion units with wathever stack of the most unsignificant core units
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted November 16, 2018 05:56 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 18:03, 16 Nov 2018.
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JollyJoker said:
MP, no. But the cap makes sure, you cannot wait and colect troops and wait and collect troops until you have so many that you can breeze through the quests and stuff. Once you reach the unit caps, waiting makes no sense anymore, and the caps make sure they have a pretty good idea what the players can field, so they can make things hard and incur losses.
Yes there may be single players that would dislike being unable to cheese through everything after waiting for some months building an army. Which I'm not sure if I find funny or sad and from whose side, the player's or the mapmaker's. But that's nothing that could not be prevented by making unit cap levels optional: Soft cap, normal cap, large cap, no cap.
Of course, I don't see why single player would even need something like that. You want to steamroll everything with crazy numbers, why not. Only yourself can judge your levels of cheesiness ^^ For me, the idea of a cap would only make sense as a multiplayer feature that prevents things from going out of whack. Maybe because game balance scales badly past a certain point(which should be corrected differently anyways), maybe because the game wants to prevent ridiculous creature stacking(whether from diplomacy or numerous towns, also best handled differently), maybe to discourage stalling tactics(is that really needed?). I am not convinced it is a proper solution to any of those and certainly not if implemented flatly like that. But I do not discount the possibility that the idea might have merit if executed well.
I wonder if both spell growth and cap army growth scaled harmoniously with hero level so that at any point of the game, your spells would be good against the army an enemy hero can equip. But that's just crazy thinking 
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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gemeaux333
Known Hero
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posted November 16, 2018 06:35 PM |
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In Heroes Online, the cap have a merit : spare the good player from the bad player
If you are good and/or skilled, you can defeat an enemy army with a strengh that is twice yours, and have low to no losses
for the very high level fights (equivalent of mythic + in WOW) your army and strategy will mainly rely on some specific neutral creatures : (faceless, treants, thunderbirds,etc...)
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted November 16, 2018 07:38 PM |
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gemeaux333 said:
In Heroes Online, the cap have a merit : spare the good player from the bad player
If you are good and/or skilled, you can defeat an enemy army with a strengh that is twice yours, and have low to no losses
That can happen in the normal heroes series as well. How does the cap help there?
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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gemeaux333
Known Hero
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posted November 17, 2018 05:18 AM |
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Well, this is mostly true when you meet armies of a level equivalent of yours...
in the lightlands, the high level parts of the starting areas of both factions...
as the army levels are pre-set, the only way to increase their strengh is either :
- to activate the veteran setting of a battle to adapt the army strengh to your level (cap at 30 no matter on what)
- to activate the heroic setting of a battle to adapt the army strengh to the heroic level you have reached (strengh of the armies will go way above lvl 30) (the risks grow bigger for every single new heroic level, but can still chose the heroic level you want), you increase your heroic level by expending usual ressources as well as the one you get with these fights : dragon steel
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DIEGIS
Supreme Hero
power of Zamolxis
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posted November 26, 2018 10:58 PM |
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as I see....no future for heroes series 
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dacian falx behind you
-knowledge itself is power-
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gemeaux333
Known Hero
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posted November 27, 2018 07:16 AM |
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There is a novelty in Heroes Online we have not mentionned : Cooperative battles
The possibility for 2 heroes, their skills and stats, their armies and the brains of both players to join their forces on a battle...
and with the fitting amount of organisation, you can deal with anything !
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted November 27, 2018 09:14 AM |
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Sounds fun. How does placement work, like normal heroes battlefield with enemy in the middle? Triangular or star-shaped field with each player's forces arranged in a corner? Perhaps allied forces arranged in a common deplayment area? Heh, the latter would be a source of great confusion ^^
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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gemeaux333
Known Hero
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posted November 27, 2018 04:57 PM |
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Well, usually, unless it is a story bound battle, the armies of the 2 heroes will begin in the lower and upper left corners, and the enemies dispatched on the right border (and the size of their armies increased of 50% to balance the difficulty)
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gemeaux333
Known Hero
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posted November 30, 2018 08:36 PM |
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And having a Might hero and a Magic hero, both of the same faction, complete each other !
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Rimgrabber
Promising
Famous Hero
Voice in Gelu's Head
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posted February 14, 2019 09:16 PM |
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Yo I just made a change.org petition to get Ubisoft to hire Nival to make HoMM8. It's probably not gonna do anything but it's worth a shot.
http://chng.it/PKCLcrq5k2
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