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Caliostro
Hired Hero
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posted June 12, 2019 07:09 PM |
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Oddball13579 said:
Caliostro said:
but series needs to evolve. Because things that cannot reproduce and evolve, cannot be considered alive.
Heroes 3 continues to evolve. We now have 2 new whole factions that are equal in quality to what 3DO designed. Do the new games have some good points? Sure. Very few, but they are still there. My point is that Ubi does not put any effort into the Heroes games. Heroes 5 is when they stopped caring because in their eyes Heroes is a dead franchise, ultimately culminating in Heroes 7.
If they released the Heroes 3 Complete Edition HD on Steam that would be a huge success. But they only released Restoration of Erathia I think, so a)Conflux is missing from the roster, as well as new artifacts and other things brought in the other expansions and b)no RMG (Random Map Generator) which was and still is a pretty big thing.
This is not evolution, this is growth of a single individual. Who knows about modifications for HoMM3 aside from HoMM3 fans? We are not immortal and unchangeable. Someone will leave the community, someone will get tired of the game.
And now, according to your previous comments, I should ask you: "Will you appriciare any other HoMM game aside from HoMM3?" Without Eraphia, with fundamentally new mecanics, may be in 3D?
Think wisely on this question and answer yourself honestly.
After years of playing HoMM3 and HoMM5, I personally came to the conclusion that the HoMM5 is the HoMM3 of its own time. No more and no less. I think, this was kind of necessary evolution. But new individual came to changed world.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted June 12, 2019 07:10 PM |
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monere said:
I don't know what you mean by "all the warcraft crap", but for me the biggest issue with the game were the heavy-on-the-eye (colourful) graphics, the 3D graphics, and also the fact that you could barely see some objects on the adventure map. I have missed so many of those arches that give +1 morale (if I remember correctly), that you would not believe it if I told you how many I have missed. Not that they are particularly useful or something, but it's still bothersome from time to time, especially when you miss other objects, too.
The 3D graphics and the heavily saturated colors are my main issues with Heroes 5, otherwise I like the game
Mostly referring to the general looks and art direction. For players like me immersion is a big thing and I could never (visually) recognize the game in any of Ubi’s iteration. I agree with your critics and also like the game, had a lot of fun with. 
For the saturated colors I used XUXO’s mod, though nowadays the best H5 version is H5.5 for any matter imo.
Caliostro said:
i think, we should not concentrate only on the past.
Says the guy mentioning H5. 
Yes, H3 and H5 are the two most popular games in the series that's factual.
Quote:
but series needs to evolve
Yes, but evolution does not mean changing the freaking game into another one! H2 was evolution from H1, H3 was evolution from H2, H5 was -I precise gameplay-wise- evolution from H3.
Oddball said:
Heroes 5 is when they stopped caring because in their eyes Heroes is a dead franchise, ultimately culminating in Heroes 7.
I wouldn’t say that because H6 had quite the budget, had they did not mess up so badly with the formula it would have been a success. People bought and pre-ordered H6. H7 did so poorly because H6 was such a failure so most of playerbase was very distrustful from the start.
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Caliostro
Hired Hero
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posted June 12, 2019 07:19 PM |
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Galaad said:
Yes, but evolution does not mean changing the freaking game into another one! H2 was evolution from H1, H3 was evolution from H2, H5 was -I precise gameplay-wise- evolution from H3.
Haha - you nearly quoted my last comment. I see, you understand, what im talking about.
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Oddball13579
Supreme Hero
Grandmaster of the Hunt
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posted June 12, 2019 07:30 PM |
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Caliostro said:
Who knows about modifications for HoMM3 aside from HoMM3 fans? We are not immortal and unchangeable.
Anyone who so much as dips a toe in the Heroes pond will eventually find there way to Heroes 3. A game that is 20 years old and still going strong. With tournaments and online matchmaking.
If Heroes 3 was remade in 3D exactly the same way as the 2D version I would play it without a doubt.
But yes I would appreciate a new game. But I am not gonna waste my money on a game that is not good. I made the mistake of buying H6 which I still regret to this day. And I won't be buying H7. It just doesn't look good. And the reviews for it are less then stellar.
So to answer your question, yeah I would buy and appreciate a new Heroes game, but not if it is going to be a money grab and receive no post launch support.
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"Just slide her down a bit farther. I could wear her like a hat." - Gnomes
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bitmaid
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 12, 2019 08:19 PM |
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Crazy. h3 is not infinitely replayable even with mods. There are tons of bugs, flaws and stupidly dominant strategies (not unlike later releases) that you have to consciously avoid to try to have a semi-challenging game, even on the hardest level.
h3 may be the best of all and it may be the most replayable, so far. To me that means one can prolly clock 1-2k hours on this with various maps and mods whereas other installments get 200hrs at most. But still it has its limits. It's not timeless or infinitely replayable. I genuinely don't understand people who want to constrain this franchise and have it just be like h3 or stay at h3. It is a good game, not a perfect one. So far from perfect in fact I don't even mind getting flamed for saying it. h5 added a lot of new elements to it and I thought with all dlcs and some tweaks it was on par with h3. H3 is not the pinnacle of turn based strategy games, period. Future heroes or heroesque games should have some game design breakthroughs.
Not doubting some people actually enjoyed playing the same game for 20 years, it just would be foolish to assume every fan is like so.
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Caliostro
Hired Hero
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posted June 12, 2019 08:36 PM |
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Yeh, speaking about future... Its grimm-dark, guys.
http://h.longtugame.com/lthd/h_view/40750.html
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bitmaid
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 12, 2019 08:45 PM |
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It is also my inflammatory opinion that mobile games are not games, but gizmo at best.
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Caliostro
Hired Hero
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posted June 12, 2019 08:56 PM |
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The thing is that Chinese HoMM mobile games gave Ubi too much money without any criticism, sooo... I am afraid, this situation is more eloquent than any interview.
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monere
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted June 12, 2019 08:58 PM |
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@bitmaid... there's so many things that I disagree with you regarding H3 that I don't even know where to begin. I'll start here, though...
1) yes, H3 IS infinitely replayable. I have played H3,4,5 and 6, and of these 4 games I always come back to H3 again and again, even though I like 4, and 5, too, but not as much as to replay them as often as H3 (at least a few times a year)
Even though I'm familiar with the pro tactics, and with the game breaking stuff like diplo, logistics, air + DD, etc. that you'd expect me to get bored of this game I actually don't. The creatures are so beautifully (and crisp-clear) designed that you just can't have enough of them. You take a break for a while (say, 3-4 months, or maybe up to an year) but then you feel the need to see them again, and play the game again.
2) regarding the "stupidly dominant strategies"... I agree, BUT... who's stopping you and your partner from leaving the "stupidly dominant strategies" aside and actually use your brains to figure out how to defeat each other without access to diplomacy, DD, TP, earth and air magic, force field, resurrection, and all other popular spells and skills? After all, this is a strategy game, so it makes sense to get rid of the things that attract the masses and only focus on the things that cater to the pros... or at least those who want a challenge.
I'm probably not in the position to give advice on this game since I never play against people because I hate the hero chaining with passion (and I'm gonna remove this crap out of my game). However, I can speak from personal experience that once you get rid of the popular, spammy, and stupidly dominant strategies even the AI becomes a challenge. Have you ever played against an AI who has +10 more ATT and DEF than you, and also 15-20% more army, and which doesn't have access to direct damage spells, or blind, summon elementals,and all other things that the AI uses so often? I'm not saying that the AI will suddenly start thinking how to beat you if it can't spam those spells, all I'm saying is that you customize the game (both the map and the AI) to give you a challenge it will actually give you a challenge, even after 20 years.
Even if you play against a human player, ask him/her that both of you clear the map at your own pace and only engage at the end of the game when you have both cleared out the map, and have built all the armies, skills and spells that you want, BUT.... agree that neither of you will use spells like blind, mass slow, mass haste, force field, quicksand, summon elementals, and other spells that are game winners most of the time. I'm willing to bet that if both of you agree to only use unpopular spells like... I don't know... cure, bloodlust, disrupting ray, frenzy, sacrifice, etc. you will actually have to figure out how to defeat each other. For me, that is strategy that actually involves using your brains more than spamming blind, mass slow, and mass haste.
3) H3 IS timeless and infinetly replayable for many reasons, all of them combined: 1) good, clean graphics (adventure map, creature design, town design, spell design, artifact design).... 2) atmosphere (H3 actually feels like a medieval, mythological adventure due to how well the creatures are designed, how ancient the towns, and adventure map objects look, and so on). For someone who likes mythology this game has infinite replayability value. For someone who likes strategy games this games also has infinite replayability value. Now, if that particular someone happens to like both mythology and strategy games.... jackpot!
4) H5 - as good of a game as it is (I still have it on my HDD) - is NOT, and never will be on par with H3, simply because it doesn't have the same replayability value like H3.
Maybe you like H5 more than H3, and that's understandable. Everyone is allowed to have their own preferences ... But, if we create a poll that's taken by 90% of the people who have played both H3 and H5 I'm sure that the vast majority of them will say that H3 is better. I have no proof to back up my claim, but if that poll was ever made it would show exactly what I said.
5) Quote:
Future heroes or heroesque games should have some game design breakthroughs
.... oh, they will!
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bitmaid
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 12, 2019 08:59 PM |
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I feel you, who can turn down stupid free money?
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monere
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted June 12, 2019 09:00 PM |
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bitmaid said:
It is also my inflammatory opinion that mobile games are not games, but gizmo at best.
I actually agree with you here
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted June 12, 2019 09:02 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 21:05, 12 Jun 2019.
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bitmaid said:
I don't even mind getting flamed for saying it. h5 added a lot of new elements to it and I thought with all dlcs and some tweaks it was on par with h3.
You cannot get flamed for saying something most people agree on.
As said earlier, H5 -and especially TotE- DID push the game forward on a gameplay aspect; the skill system alone is a huge upgrade to H3, no one is going to say the opposite.
bitmaid said:
Future heroes or heroesque games should have some game design breakthroughs.
While H5 was a nice gameplay upgrade to H3 (while being released much later), it didn't have any game design breakthroughs either.
monere said:
if we create a poll that's taken by 90% of the people who have played both H3 and H5 I'm sure that the vast majority of them will say that H3 is better
That is because overall h3 is better. 
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monere
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted June 12, 2019 09:10 PM |
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Galaad said:
That is because overall h3 is better.
I know but others don't, so I have to repeat it until they get it
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bitmaid
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 12, 2019 09:14 PM |
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monere said:
AI who has +10 more ATT and DEF than you, and also 15-20% more army
Those are rookie numbers monere. Whenever I revisit h3 I play impossible where I start with 0 resource and the AI plays to the best of its ability. Even then, like in h5-7 I had to purposefully cripple myself by skipping buid and recruit for days on end. Do you seriously find AI who's 10 or so levels higher than you and only possesses 20% more creatures (which leads to an Average rating I suppose in h6/7 as supposed to Deadly or whatever else) challenging?
My point is when balance is tipped off that much it's truly not fun anymore. Bold of you to assume I don't "use my brains" playing lol, I know you prolly meant well. I'm literally exhausting ways to put myself at a disadvantage so I don't get bored too soon. Maybe this will be more relatable when you are in the same position some day... or not.
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bitmaid
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 12, 2019 09:28 PM |
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Galaad said:
While H5 was a nice gameplay upgrade to H3 (while being released much later), it didn't have any game design breakthroughs either.
ToE creatures alone (3rd lineup) offered some great alternatives and tradeoffs that greatly impacted the gameplay. I feel like it's what alternative buildings for Elite/Champion creatures in h7 were set to achieve but failed. There was no grand revamp but a restoration that revitalized the franchise from the controversial & unsuccessful h4.
Also I just noticed monere, when have I ever said h5 is better than h3? I literally said h3 may be the best (so far). But being the best so far doesn't equal to being timeless, so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree there.
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monere
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted June 12, 2019 09:51 PM |
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Edited by monere at 21:53, 12 Jun 2019.
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bitmaid said:
monere said:
AI who has +10 more ATT and DEF than you, and also 15-20% more army
Those are rookie numbers monere. Whenever I revisit h3 I play impossible where I start with 0 resource and the AI plays to the best of its ability. Even then, like in h5-7 I had to purposefully cripple myself by skipping buid and recruit for days on end. Do you seriously find AI who's 10 or so levels higher than you and only possesses 20% more creatures (which leads to an Average rating I suppose in h6/7 as supposed to Deadly or whatever else) challenging?
My point is when balance is tipped off that much it's truly not fun anymore. Bold of you to assume I don't "use my brains" playing lol, I know you prolly meant well. I'm literally exhausting ways to put myself at a disadvantage so I don't get bored too soon. Maybe this will be more relatable when you are in the same position some day... or not.
I'm not afraid to admit that you're better than me, so no worries
Not sure how challenging the AI is (and yes, I play on 200%, too), but I never let the AI play the game because even I can defeat it then xD
I simply landlock the retard somewhere where it can't bother me, and I give it absolutely the best things in the game: for example, my AI opponent is either Mutare Drake, Kilgor, Tazar, Neela, Mephala, Crag Hack, Xeron (or Xyron?!? the one with the Devils specialty anyway), Tamika, Tyris, and the alikes.
Only the creme-de-la-creme (or whatever the expression is) of the heroes are my opponent, and I also give them only the best items possible that make sense for the army they carry (for example, they will always have elixir of life, but they will not have bow of the sharpshooter all the time if I don't give the AI 2+ shooters).
Last but not least, I play WoG and in WoG a level 65 Tazar with 20% more Hell Hydras than your tier 7 creature - along with other creatures obviously - will most likely beat you, too... if you don't give it direct-damage and summon elemental spells. With no access to these spells the AI will actually use some good spells on your army, and believe me that Hell Hydras are the most dangerous creature you have ever seen in all HoMM games, especially when it's a rank 10 creature (which it always is in my games cause I allow the AI to farm a little so that its army becomes rank 10)
I remember a game that I've played last year in which the AI has defeated me 2 or 3 times before I figured out how to beat it. Taking care of the 8500 dendroids that I've had, instead of sacrificing them during the first 3 turns, has actually allowed me to defeat the AI.
Anyway, the point is that, even though I'm not a pro at this game and you might actually defeat the AI way easier than me, the thing is that if you play WoG and customize everything to your liking you will actually get a bigger challenge out of this game, more than what all other versions of H3 offer anyway.
Quote:
Also I just noticed monere, when have I ever said h5 is better than h3? I literally said h3 may be the best (so far). But being the best so far doesn't equal to being timeless, so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree there.
sure, no problem. I probably misread... like I do many times
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Su_Lang_Manchu
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 12, 2019 09:56 PM |
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@monere
Well, I understand your liking for Heroes 3, I first played it around 2011 when Heroes 6 was announced. In terms of atmosphere it was clearly superior to Heroes 5, the campaign was nice and I remember liking most factions and their creature line-up.
One of your main reasons for "infinite replayability" are the graphics in all of its aspects. I really question how this contributes replayability and how it is not simply a strong personal preference.
At least for me, most replayability correlates with combat, since you grow accustomed to graphics very quickly.
monere said:
Even if you play against a human player, ask him/her that both of you clear the map at your own pace and only engage at the end of the game when you have both cleared out the map, and have built all the armies, skills and spells that you want, BUT.... agree that neither of you will use spells like blind, mass slow, mass haste, force field, quicksand, summon elementals, and other spells that are game winners most of the time. I'm willing to bet that if both of you agree to only use unpopular spells like... I don't know... cure, bloodlust, disrupting ray, frenzy, sacrifice, etc. you will actually have to figure out how to defeat each other. For me, that is strategy that actually involves using your brains more than spamming blind, mass slow, and mass haste."
That's a hell lot of "ifs" if you ask me...
I'd prefer a game whose first steps isn't to find out how it can be actually enjoyed in terms of pure gameplay.
I've only been on the forum for a week or so, but I've known I will be torn apart eventually. Now I'm provoking this: I dare say that Heroes 6 had a much better Dungeon faction than Heroes 3 did.
You can argue about visuals, and I don't care how many Dark Elves the army has, but Dungeon in Shades of Darkness is one of the most well designed factions in the whole franchise.
There is a huge amount of tactical choice because of Invisibility, abilities such as Shadow Implosion and Dark Transfer, massive access to debuffs and damage spells. I've rarely seen a high-risk high-reward faction so well designed like this. You can absolutely troll your enemy if you have good positioning, plan in advance and use the right spells at the right time.. or get stomped if you expose yourself too much.
Dungeon was my favourite faction in Heroes 3, but I didn't know what I missed until I played SoD (didn't like them in H5). And on top of that, you have area of control, you are not a potential victim of RND and the grahpics aren't shabby either. And after all the patches the game has a very decent balance and offers several different builds for each faction (I'll stop here now).
I'm not even saying Heroes 6 is better than H3, I'm just saying that Heroes 3 can't be perfect, since some parts of it have been done better in more recent games.
Feel free to tear me apart, I stand behind what I said and I'm happy to go into greater detail.
Well anyway, on a more general note, I do sometimes wonder why Ubisfot should even bother with Heroes anymore: Heroes 3 will always be the eternal favourite for the impact it had and subsequent games will only be torn apart by long time fans. They keep on playing H3 anyway no matter what.
Personally, I think the series is a too a slave to the fans for its own good.
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bitmaid
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 12, 2019 10:03 PM |
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I know what you're saying. I suppose if you or anyone enjoys h3 all that much, you really have nothing to complain. You can keep modding and playing the next 20 years like you did the previous and an "active community" will always be sustained, right?
But for others like me, something fresh would be nice. Playability and replayability, when it comes down to it, lie mainly in AI and balance. Given the progress made with AI in the past few years I truly think it shouldn't be impossible that we deserve a radically better game.
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monere
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted June 12, 2019 10:25 PM |
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@Su_Lang_Manchu....
I really question how this contributes replayability and how it is not simply a strong personal preference.... graphics alone will not make a game replayable, but it sure adds to the overall impression, which is what creates replayability. Also, it is a strong personal preference, but when most of the players have the same strong personal preference like mine... the consensus is set
for me, most replayability correlates with combat, since you grow accustomed to graphics very quickly... I agree
That's a hell lot of "ifs" if you ask me... these "ifs" have only come to surface after the ins and outs of this game have been thoroughly dissected for several years. Several years after H3 has come out no one knew which things are game breaking, how all of the spells worked, and so on. The game has offered so much to explore that most players have never even thought that these "ifs" should be removed for better replayability and strategy of the game.
My first encounter to H3 has been in 1999 when I've been in college. I have never played H1 and H2 before, nor have I heard anything about them previously because I've had no friends that were even remotely interested in TBS. My friends (and myself, too) would play FIFA 99, Quake, and Starcraft most of the time
Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that the "ifs" you are referring to only come into play much later. Like I said, this game has kept players occupied with its rich content for several years (at least in my entourage and local area) before people have started figuring out what is game breaking, and how to improve strategy. Which other HoMM game after H3 has had the same longevity and content? H4 possibly, but I'm not sure....
I'd prefer a game whose first steps isn't to find out how it can be actually enjoyed in terms of pure gameplay..... to me this sounds like you'd want a game easy to figure out within days of playing. Correct me if I misread, cause I tend to this a lot
I dare say that Heroes 6 had a much better Dungeon faction than Heroes 3 did... I've not liked H6, so I haven't played it much, but from the little that I've played I remember that I've disliked it. Hasn't been H6 who have had Mistresses?!? I don't remember.... Also, isn't also H6 who's had the faceless... whatever the hell those things were?!? Again, I don't remember but if any of these is true, then I have liked the faceless whatever the hell those things were, but I totally disliked the Mistresses. I mean this is a mythology-based game, not a porn movie lol
Dungeon in Shades of Darkness is one of the most well designed factions in the whole franchise.... strong personal preference, and, unlike mine, yours is really not shared by many players, which means that this preference of yours weighs even less than mine (which is actually a popular opinion among HoMM fans )
I'm not even saying Heroes 6 is better than H3, I'm just saying that Heroes 3 can't be perfect, since some parts of it have been done better in more recent games... I'm unable to participate in the discussion about H6 because I haven't played the game long enough to understand its core mechanics. Also, of course that H3 is not perfect. Not even Subnautica is perfect, and I regard this game as the best game of the last 2 decades, so...
Feel free to tear me apart, I stand behind what I said and I'm happy to go into greater detail..... um, I have nothing against you mate. Why would I torn you apart, especially for something that I have no clue about (h6)?
They keep on playing H3 anyway no matter what..... replayability value, man. It's all about replayability, and that comes with: good design, memorable creatures, memorable spells, bada55 artifacts (elixir of life, angelic alliance, bow of the sharpshooter and armor of the damned are as bada55-y as they can get)... also, multitude of creatures, towns, and whatnot.
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monere
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted June 12, 2019 10:27 PM |
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bitmaid said:
I know what you're saying. I suppose if you or anyone enjoys h3 all that much, you really have nothing to complain. You can keep modding and playing the next 20 years like you did the previous and an "active community" will always be sustained, right?
But for others like me, something fresh would be nice. Playability and replayability, when it comes down to it, lie mainly in AI and balance. Given the progress made with AI in the past few years I truly think it shouldn't be impossible that we deserve a radically better game.
of course
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