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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: Multifaction creature concept (for any upcoming game/s)
Thread: Multifaction creature concept (for any upcoming game/s)
NimoStar
NimoStar


Promising
Famous Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted September 07, 2017 11:44 PM
Edited by NimoStar at 23:56, 07 Sep 2017.

Multifaction creature concept (for any upcoming game/s)

Well, this is a little idea I had.

We all know how in Heroes games, a creature is associated with a faction, and that's it, right?

But real life -and not even much of fantasy any more- is like that. We have many factions and cultures in our world and all are humans.

All-humans however would be absolutely boring and not at all what I advocate for. But even in H3 and others, most factions had human heroes...

So, what I am saying is that at the very least creatures should have the ability to be "joined" or recruited to different factions, depending on the circumstance.

They woudn't remain the same, though.
They would "upgrade" depending on the faction that has them.
They don't even need to have an internal dwelling - you recruit the creature in the map in it's BASE form, and then EACH faction has an unique way to upgrade them.

This could be done in a special building that each castle has, specially dedicated to upgrade "Neutral" creatures to it's own "flavor" of creature.

What I am saying is for example, take the Orc.
Orcs don't necesarily have one single faction.

So we could have the next variations:

BASE orc: One that you recruit in map dwellings, some neutral stacks, etc.

BASE orc --Barbarian upgrade--> Berserker Orc: Has more HP and attack, but can't be controlled in combat. Model has blue tribal tatoos and extra fur.

BASE orc --Inferno upgrade--> Fiery Orc: Has some flaming parts and a red-hot blade, deals additional Fire damage with attacks, but has less armor.

BASE orc --Dungeon upgrade--> Shadow Orc: Dark Elf dungeon version of orc, has some purple armor and whatnot. Stealth special ability.

BASE orc --Necropolis upgrade--> Shambling Orc: Is undead, paler grey-skin, some exposed bone and pestilence. Has Plague ability but is slower.

Not every faction would be able to upgrade every creature is my idea. Dwarven town could not have orc because they hate them. Heaven-equivalent would not get a "reformed orc" because they are a human supremacist faction, for example. But they could have other upgraded neutral creatures that for example Inferno would not be able to get, such as tamed armored battle unicorns. In order to better preserve balance, factions that can't convert a certain creature would get extra XP and gold by destroying them. So Have and Dwarfs would get extra XP and some gold by defeating the orcs others could recruit and convert. Dwellings of unconvertable creatures would work as creature banks instead for that faction. Anyways, it never made so much sense that the "good" player fighting necromancers and devil-worshippers could use those very same creatures to defeat them (AKA the faction that suppossedly hates necromancy could go to a Dragon Vault and get skeleton dragons, to a cemetery and get zombies, etc. when they are suppossed to lorewise try to eradicate any trace of necromancy and undead from the world - With my scheme a "light" faction would go to a "vampire dwelling" to eradicate the vampires for a month, not recruit them)

Woudn't be so hard to implement because all of these variations would work with the same model and skeleton, only a few textures, FX and cosmetic details would have to be altered (Less work than doing more creatures from scratch, and very flavorful).

What do you think? What other creatures lean themselves to this treatment? I was thinking griffins could have both "Sylvan", "Academy" and "Haven" variations, for example. And all dragons could come from a base Dragon form (Skeleton dragons, Black Dragons, Green Dragons, etc. all would come from the base "Savage Dragon" creature), which would make them not only formidable creatures but also valuable resources. The possibilities are endless.
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Baronus
Baronus


Supreme Hero
posted September 08, 2017 10:15 AM

Its another system. Can be done.
Another idea. More upgrades. Best way to have eg. 10 upgrades is MM system. Some another colors. The same unit def but another palette. Its not a big work.
In this system the same unit as you tell may be:
Castle blue
Rampart forrest green
Tower white
Strongold bronze
Citadel swamp green
Conlux 4elemental colors
etc. Similiar to terrain.
In this case it can be made fast.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted September 08, 2017 11:07 AM

NimoStar said:
What I am saying is for example, take the Orc.



That's possibily my biggest beef with AoW3, seeing same units in different factions, zzzz... I like towns with a strong identity, I like creatures being unique.
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kiryu133
kiryu133

Hero of Order
Highly illogical
posted September 08, 2017 12:32 PM

I think its interesting and opens up a lot of interesting concepts and the amount of work necessary should be significantly reduced, allowing for more stuff. That's not to say it CAN'T be boring, far from it. it takes some effort to really pull off but the potential is well worth it I'd say.

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted September 10, 2017 01:30 PM
Edited by MattII at 14:05, 10 Sep 2017.

This sounds very similar to an idea I once had. Also, I personally would restrict it to 'animalistic' creatures (gargoyle, griffin, etc.) or those that could be considered reasonably faction-neutral (gremlin, etc.).

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Mediczero
Mediczero


Famous Hero
Warlord of the sea
posted September 10, 2017 03:42 PM

Sorry, but honestly I don't see this working too well. It is a tad risky, and might turn out horrible, and even if it works there are better, more interesting alternatives.

I would personally suggest bringing a bigger focus on neutral creatures.

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Promising
Famous Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted September 10, 2017 09:58 PM
Edited by NimoStar at 10:02, 12 Sep 2017.

Thanks for poitning out that previous idea. It is vaguely similar, yes, but lack the upgrade/differentiation mechanic if I understand correctly.

However they could be used somewhat in conjunction with this. On the other hand, I am afraid the "reinforcement"/reserve mechanic would make the game too complicated, but at least it adds strategic-tactical depth.

On the other other hand (?), even in normal say H3 (or h4, or other heroes) games, you don't go taking the full army of all of your factions creatures around everywhere - some of those creatures are slower, and they could slow down your army. Those creatures like in H3 Dwarves, Dendroids, Golems and Zombies are better suited to guarding castles, gates, mines and other important locations. Since they are normally eplaced on the main army by either neutral creatures or creatures of other towns anyways,
Woudn't it be more flavorful and make more sense that THOSE other creatures could be truly "converted" to your side with a faction upgrade?
Including those in guard duty too...

Don't think of it as "having less creatures" but rather in "having more variations on each of the creatures we already have", and "having each faction lineup be more specific.

Because this makes factions MORE unique, not less, since each neutral you control have an UNIQUE way to be integrated into your faction, with an UNIQUE faction look and abilities for that creature. Also, your lineup will look better and by upgrading you lose the "Mixing alignements" morale penalty, and gain the native ground bonus / spell / ability alignement bonuses for that creature.

_______________________________________

It's somewhat... racist (specieist? ) to imply humans can be on ANY alignement yet other creatures can only have ONE alignement.

All factions have human heroes...

Also we get one faction full of "Human" creatures (Haven equivalent) but on other towns all other creatures (at least h4 down) only get one creature to represent them (Like 7 human creatures, but only one dwarf creature...)

This doesn't seem fair to me, but I also don't like the "racial town" concept (sSIX DWARF CREATURES ALL OF THE SAME FACTION like was in h5, now that is boring)

Take into account this doesn't mean having less creatures. Making this creature is just a little more work than making a creature and one/two upgrades.

Also, as I said, only *some* creatures would apply this system. You could still have unique faction-only creatures when/if the need arises.

But mainly this allows for more varies creature lineups.

So if you don't like spiders, you can just not use them. But if someone is an Ashan fan they will still be available ingame.

Also, considering only 2 or 3 factions will get to use each of these creature types, they will still be "unique" enough

Some other ideas for these type of multifaction creature:

SAVAGE spider:
---> Crawler Arachnid (Dungeon), has poisonous attack
---> Tomb Spinner (Necropolis), can spin webs to slow passing enemies (acts like Moat)

SAVAGE pegasus:
---> Silver Pegasus (Rampart), mounted by an elf. Fast, makes enemy spells cost more.
---> Armored Pegasus (Haven). Mounted by a human. Slower, gives extra defense and magic resistance  to nearby allies.

SAVAGE minotaur:
---> Labyrinth Minotaur (Dungeon), has extra movement and a second attack
---> Minotaur Guard (Academy/Tower), strikes first when defending.
---> Horned Charger (Inferno), is black and has giant flaming horns and red glowing eyes. Attacks deal more damage the more it runs towards the enemy. Cannot be controlled in combat.

SAVAGE dwarf:
---> Dwarf Miner (Academy), gives 2 extra gold per creature each day, but worse in combat.
---> Dwarf Soldier (Haven), has more HP and attack but lower movement.
---> Dwarf Artisan (Rampart), armed with a wooden hammer, can grant stats bonuses to allies in combat by "crafting" them trinkets (spell-like)

You can propose your own creatures if you so wish...

To me, it is also key the alternate way of "dealing" with incompatible monsters. This way, if you are playing as world-eating devils, you won't have an army of light white angels casting Bless and Resurrection just because you happen to capture a neutral dwelling on the map...
it will keep things flavorful if you just have to destroy them, OR convert them to Fallen Angels or something.

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted September 11, 2017 11:47 AM
Edited by MattII at 11:47, 11 Sep 2017.

NimoStar said:
Thanks for poitning out that previous idea. It is vaguely similar, yes, but lack the upgrade/differentiation mechanic if I understand correctly.
Nope, it had the upgrade mechanic, I just didn't make a proper example.

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Promising
Famous Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted September 12, 2017 10:06 AM

I see.

Well, my idea also has influence of the Heroes 5 alternate upgrades mechanic. I though the idea was not bad, but by making every upgrade cost the same, interchangeable, and use the same building, the missed a chance for true differentiation. And good players will mix both kind of upgrades in a "minmax" fashion anyways.

This keeps multiple upgrades but puts them on different towns, thus the upgrades can be significantly different from eachother (even in terms of cost/power/stats/abilities), have different alignments and belong to different armies. This way, we can have upgrade variation, without one of the upgrades being condemned to oblivion because its just not as competitive (like it happened in H5 with half of them).
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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted September 13, 2017 01:39 PM

I can agree with that. However, I do feel you should be allowed to construct those dwelling in your towns, otherwise they would quickly become uncompetitive in the face of the Citidal/Castle increasing in-town creature growth.

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Promising
Famous Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted September 14, 2017 11:08 AM
Edited by NimoStar at 12:26, 14 Sep 2017.

Maybe once you capture a neutral dwelling, you unlock one extra "dwelling slot" to build one (or perhaps up to two different ones) of some such neutral dwellings in your town (that produces your town-specific variation as well as upgrade the original ones)?

You can demolish it later. For example, if you capture a better one later, as it would be unwise to have the neutral Orc dwelling occupying the extra slot in your town after you capture the neutral Behemoth dwelling, for instance...

Predecessor to this is the "Summoning portal" in H3 dungeon as well as the one from H4 preserve.
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