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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: Multifaction creature concept (for any upcoming game/s)
Thread: Multifaction creature concept (for any upcoming game/s) This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
NimoStar
NimoStar


Promising
Supreme Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted September 07, 2017 11:44 PM
Edited by NimoStar at 23:56, 07 Sep 2017.

Multifaction creature concept (for any upcoming game/s)

Well, this is a little idea I had.

We all know how in Heroes games, a creature is associated with a faction, and that's it, right?

But real life -and not even much of fantasy any more- is like that. We have many factions and cultures in our world and all are humans.

All-humans however would be absolutely boring and not at all what I advocate for. But even in H3 and others, most factions had human heroes...

So, what I am saying is that at the very least creatures should have the ability to be "joined" or recruited to different factions, depending on the circumstance.

They woudn't remain the same, though.
They would "upgrade" depending on the faction that has them.
They don't even need to have an internal dwelling - you recruit the creature in the map in it's BASE form, and then EACH faction has an unique way to upgrade them.

This could be done in a special building that each castle has, specially dedicated to upgrade "Neutral" creatures to it's own "flavor" of creature.

What I am saying is for example, take the Orc.
Orcs don't necesarily have one single faction.

So we could have the next variations:

BASE orc: One that you recruit in map dwellings, some neutral stacks, etc.

BASE orc --Barbarian upgrade--> Berserker Orc: Has more HP and attack, but can't be controlled in combat. Model has blue tribal tatoos and extra fur.

BASE orc --Inferno upgrade--> Fiery Orc: Has some flaming parts and a red-hot blade, deals additional Fire damage with attacks, but has less armor.

BASE orc --Dungeon upgrade--> Shadow Orc: Dark Elf dungeon version of orc, has some purple armor and whatnot. Stealth special ability.

BASE orc --Necropolis upgrade--> Shambling Orc: Is undead, paler grey-skin, some exposed bone and pestilence. Has Plague ability but is slower.

Not every faction would be able to upgrade every creature is my idea. Dwarven town could not have orc because they hate them. Heaven-equivalent would not get a "reformed orc" because they are a human supremacist faction, for example. But they could have other upgraded neutral creatures that for example Inferno would not be able to get, such as tamed armored battle unicorns. In order to better preserve balance, factions that can't convert a certain creature would get extra XP and gold by destroying them. So Have and Dwarfs would get extra XP and some gold by defeating the orcs others could recruit and convert. Dwellings of unconvertable creatures would work as creature banks instead for that faction. Anyways, it never made so much sense that the "good" player fighting necromancers and devil-worshippers could use those very same creatures to defeat them (AKA the faction that suppossedly hates necromancy could go to a Dragon Vault and get skeleton dragons, to a cemetery and get zombies, etc. when they are suppossed to lorewise try to eradicate any trace of necromancy and undead from the world - With my scheme a "light" faction would go to a "vampire dwelling" to eradicate the vampires for a month, not recruit them)

Woudn't be so hard to implement because all of these variations would work with the same model and skeleton, only a few textures, FX and cosmetic details would have to be altered (Less work than doing more creatures from scratch, and very flavorful).

What do you think? What other creatures lean themselves to this treatment? I was thinking griffins could have both "Sylvan", "Academy" and "Haven" variations, for example. And all dragons could come from a base Dragon form (Skeleton dragons, Black Dragons, Green Dragons, etc. all would come from the base "Savage Dragon" creature), which would make them not only formidable creatures but also valuable resources. The possibilities are endless.
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Baronus
Baronus


Supreme Hero
posted September 08, 2017 10:15 AM

Its another system. Can be done.
Another idea. More upgrades. Best way to have eg. 10 upgrades is MM system. Some another colors. The same unit def but another palette. Its not a big work.
In this system the same unit as you tell may be:
Castle blue
Rampart forrest green
Tower white
Strongold bronze
Citadel swamp green
Conlux 4elemental colors
etc. Similiar to terrain.
In this case it can be made fast.

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Galaad
Galaad

Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
posted September 08, 2017 11:07 AM

NimoStar said:
What I am saying is for example, take the Orc.



That's possibily my biggest beef with AoW3, seeing same units in different factions, zzzz... I like towns with a strong identity, I like creatures being unique.
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kiryu133
kiryu133

Hero of Order
Highly illogical
posted September 08, 2017 12:32 PM

I think its interesting and opens up a lot of interesting concepts and the amount of work necessary should be significantly reduced, allowing for more stuff. That's not to say it CAN'T be boring, far from it. it takes some effort to really pull off but the potential is well worth it I'd say.

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted September 10, 2017 01:30 PM
Edited by MattII at 14:05, 10 Sep 2017.

This sounds very similar to an idea I once had. Also, I personally would restrict it to 'animalistic' creatures (gargoyle, griffin, etc.) or those that could be considered reasonably faction-neutral (gremlin, etc.).

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Mediczero
Mediczero


Famous Hero
Warlord of the sea
posted September 10, 2017 03:42 PM

Sorry, but honestly I don't see this working too well. It is a tad risky, and might turn out horrible, and even if it works there are better, more interesting alternatives.

I would personally suggest bringing a bigger focus on neutral creatures.

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Promising
Supreme Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted September 10, 2017 09:58 PM
Edited by NimoStar at 10:02, 12 Sep 2017.

Thanks for poitning out that previous idea. It is vaguely similar, yes, but lack the upgrade/differentiation mechanic if I understand correctly.

However they could be used somewhat in conjunction with this. On the other hand, I am afraid the "reinforcement"/reserve mechanic would make the game too complicated, but at least it adds strategic-tactical depth.

On the other other hand (?), even in normal say H3 (or h4, or other heroes) games, you don't go taking the full army of all of your factions creatures around everywhere - some of those creatures are slower, and they could slow down your army. Those creatures like in H3 Dwarves, Dendroids, Golems and Zombies are better suited to guarding castles, gates, mines and other important locations. Since they are normally eplaced on the main army by either neutral creatures or creatures of other towns anyways,
Woudn't it be more flavorful and make more sense that THOSE other creatures could be truly "converted" to your side with a faction upgrade?
Including those in guard duty too...

Don't think of it as "having less creatures" but rather in "having more variations on each of the creatures we already have", and "having each faction lineup be more specific.

Because this makes factions MORE unique, not less, since each neutral you control have an UNIQUE way to be integrated into your faction, with an UNIQUE faction look and abilities for that creature. Also, your lineup will look better and by upgrading you lose the "Mixing alignements" morale penalty, and gain the native ground bonus / spell / ability alignement bonuses for that creature.

_______________________________________

It's somewhat... racist (specieist? ) to imply humans can be on ANY alignement yet other creatures can only have ONE alignement.

All factions have human heroes...

Also we get one faction full of "Human" creatures (Haven equivalent) but on other towns all other creatures (at least h4 down) only get one creature to represent them (Like 7 human creatures, but only one dwarf creature...)

This doesn't seem fair to me, but I also don't like the "racial town" concept (sSIX DWARF CREATURES ALL OF THE SAME FACTION like was in h5, now that is boring)

Take into account this doesn't mean having less creatures. Making this creature is just a little more work than making a creature and one/two upgrades.

Also, as I said, only *some* creatures would apply this system. You could still have unique faction-only creatures when/if the need arises.

But mainly this allows for more varies creature lineups.

So if you don't like spiders, you can just not use them. But if someone is an Ashan fan they will still be available ingame.

Also, considering only 2 or 3 factions will get to use each of these creature types, they will still be "unique" enough

Some other ideas for these type of multifaction creature:

SAVAGE spider:
---> Crawler Arachnid (Dungeon), has poisonous attack
---> Tomb Spinner (Necropolis), can spin webs to slow passing enemies (acts like Moat)

SAVAGE pegasus:
---> Silver Pegasus (Rampart), mounted by an elf. Fast, makes enemy spells cost more.
---> Armored Pegasus (Haven). Mounted by a human. Slower, gives extra defense and magic resistance  to nearby allies.

SAVAGE minotaur:
---> Labyrinth Minotaur (Dungeon), has extra movement and a second attack
---> Minotaur Guard (Academy/Tower), strikes first when defending.
---> Horned Charger (Inferno), is black and has giant flaming horns and red glowing eyes. Attacks deal more damage the more it runs towards the enemy. Cannot be controlled in combat.

SAVAGE dwarf:
---> Dwarf Miner (Academy), gives 2 extra gold per creature each day, but worse in combat.
---> Dwarf Soldier (Haven), has more HP and attack but lower movement.
---> Dwarf Artisan (Rampart), armed with a wooden hammer, can grant stats bonuses to allies in combat by "crafting" them trinkets (spell-like)

You can propose your own creatures if you so wish...

To me, it is also key the alternate way of "dealing" with incompatible monsters. This way, if you are playing as world-eating devils, you won't have an army of light white angels casting Bless and Resurrection just because you happen to capture a neutral dwelling on the map...
it will keep things flavorful if you just have to destroy them, OR convert them to Fallen Angels or something.

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted September 11, 2017 11:47 AM
Edited by MattII at 11:47, 11 Sep 2017.

NimoStar said:
Thanks for poitning out that previous idea. It is vaguely similar, yes, but lack the upgrade/differentiation mechanic if I understand correctly.
Nope, it had the upgrade mechanic, I just didn't make a proper example.

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Promising
Supreme Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted September 12, 2017 10:06 AM

I see.

Well, my idea also has influence of the Heroes 5 alternate upgrades mechanic. I though the idea was not bad, but by making every upgrade cost the same, interchangeable, and use the same building, the missed a chance for true differentiation. And good players will mix both kind of upgrades in a "minmax" fashion anyways.

This keeps multiple upgrades but puts them on different towns, thus the upgrades can be significantly different from eachother (even in terms of cost/power/stats/abilities), have different alignments and belong to different armies. This way, we can have upgrade variation, without one of the upgrades being condemned to oblivion because its just not as competitive (like it happened in H5 with half of them).
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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted September 13, 2017 01:39 PM

I can agree with that. However, I do feel you should be allowed to construct those dwelling in your towns, otherwise they would quickly become uncompetitive in the face of the Citidal/Castle increasing in-town creature growth.

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Promising
Supreme Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted September 14, 2017 11:08 AM
Edited by NimoStar at 12:26, 14 Sep 2017.

Maybe once you capture a neutral dwelling, you unlock one extra "dwelling slot" to build one (or perhaps up to two different ones) of some such neutral dwellings in your town (that produces your town-specific variation as well as upgrade the original ones)?

You can demolish it later. For example, if you capture a better one later, as it would be unwise to have the neutral Orc dwelling occupying the extra slot in your town after you capture the neutral Behemoth dwelling, for instance...

Predecessor to this is the "Summoning portal" in H3 dungeon as well as the one from H4 preserve.
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sirironfist
sirironfist


Adventuring Hero
Master of the Sword
posted October 11, 2017 06:38 PM

I like your ideas.

I'd go even further and make things dependent on the terrain your faction lives in. I don't like the idea that factions have a certain terrain that is associated with them.

Say, you have a faction called "Wizard".
This is obviously a faction which is highly based on using magic. So you're playing Wizard and you are starting in a snowy region. Now it would make sense for this Wizard to specialize on ice magic. There would be benefits on learning that magic type on snowy ground and it would be harder, maybe cost more mana or whatsoever, to learn fire magic.
Based on this, he will also hire specific creatures, that are somehow made of water and ice. For example a Wizard in snow could easily create ice elementals and a wizard in volcanic terrain could do the same with fire elementals.

Another example: There's a faction called "Druid" which among other units, can have a lot of different animals as units.
Now, maybe the wolves and bears he's recruiting in a cold region are taller and stronger than the ones he recruites in warm terrain. Just as it is in the real world, northern mammals are almost always way bigger than their counterparts in the south.

It's about bringing some immersion into the game. It's still is a fantasy game, but I find having a high level of immersion can enhance the fantasy experience a lot.



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NimoStar
NimoStar


Promising
Supreme Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted December 11, 2017 01:48 PM

Perhqaps but I dread to think the increase in complexity some of those ideas would carry.

Maybe some sort of automation of traits, with 3D it is possible. So for Snow version of X faction, you have a fixed "Increase 10% model size" and "colorshift to cyan" for example. That would be vaguely doable.

About the traits, it would have to be coupled with lower growth for example (it is only logical as well). However, my real gripe is: What wopuld happen about joining stacks? That could prove quite difficult. Too much variety of creatures you can't fit in your army is a problem already. Even with reserve slots (noncombat) you would have the problem that few could participate.

There should be a way of joining two stacks and getting an "hybrid" one. Perhaps with floating point it's not so hard.

So imagining...

Tropical Satyrs:
+20% growth, -10% cost; -10% damage and HP (-10% size)
Snow Satyrs:
-10% growth, +5% cost; +10% damage and HP (+10% size)

If you join the stacks, depending on the quantities of each, you get an average of the characteristics.

For example, if you join 2 tropical satyrs with 4 snow satyrs, the resulting stack would have +5% damage, HP and size. Any mised stack would be called "Hybrid Satyrs", no matter the kinds and proportions.

It is doable indeed, with some permanent floating points variables attached to each stack that are averagable, but not that I woudn't foresee some problems...

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dredknight
dredknight


Responsible
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted December 11, 2017 05:04 PM
Edited by dredknight at 17:05, 11 Dec 2017.

NimoStar said:
Perhqaps but I dread to think the increase in complexity some of those ideas would carry.

Maybe some sort of automation of traits, with 3D it is possible. So for Snow version of X faction, you have a fixed "Increase 10% model size" and "colorshift to cyan" for example. That would be vaguely doable.




I am interested in making this work on a larger scale. Can you make an example show case on how to automate 4 different images with the same model change?

Can it be done via scripts?

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Promising
Supreme Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted December 11, 2017 05:48 PM
Edited by NimoStar at 17:50, 11 Dec 2017.

This is on a theoretical new game engine, which I cannot program because I'm not a programmer.

I would imagine extension scripts would work dependent to the engine.

When creatures are created on a snow town, something like this would happen:

Quote:

If town_terrain = "Snow"
then
set creature_tag = "Arctic"

(...)

If creature_tag = "Arctic"
then
set_model_scale = 1.1
add_hp_modifier = +10%
add_damage_modifier = +10%
set_texture_mask = snow


(so forth with each terrain modification)

With the appropiate engine support defining, storing and implementing the relevant variables and functions, of course this could be automated to every creature in the game with just more or less those lines.

The last ("texture mask") would be, say, a white-blue plain texture with 15% alpha, to make these creatures look different.

It is also possible to have individual textures, but this would be overwhelmingly too much work considering each creature and biome involved.

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thGryphn
thGryphn


Promising
Famous Hero
posted December 11, 2017 07:02 PM

I like the idea posted in the OP, especially (only?) because it would apply to neutral creatures and not all of them.

The way I see it, every faction would have a dedicated building (possibly with the same name across factions) where you can convert those neutrals to your faction, AND you can select one of those neutrals to boost their weekly growth numbers. Again, not all neutrals should be convertible, well for example because it doesn't make sense to convert a Death Knight into, well, anything other than Necro.

It might be even more interesting having one or two creatures in each faction line-up, that can be convertible to all other factions, but without being able to boost their weekly growth. It would serve basically as a way to negate the negative morale effects of having mixed line-ups, and would be particularly useful when you capture a town of another faction with a bunch of non-recruited fellas, or if a group of them join, or you happen to have one of those dwellings in your adventure map area...


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dredknight
dredknight


Responsible
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
posted December 14, 2017 06:26 PM

@Nimo,

I was hoping for a step-by-step example. As I am working on the NCF megapack a huge amount of creatures has to be processed so any bit of automation would help. If anyone knows how can this be done I am willing to invest time in doing the automation script/tool if it is possible at all.

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Baronus
Baronus


Supreme Hero
posted December 14, 2017 09:13 PM

I think that repair Namerutan tool is easiest road to fast defmaking. We have nothing another so good.

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Promising
Supreme Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted December 15, 2017 09:25 PM

I don't know what is the NCF megapack, some sort of H3 creature compilation?

My method only works ingame, there is a base resource, the display is modified, the base resource not.

For mass processing of 2d images (such as H3 creatures) I suggest using photoshop actions, or the equivalents in other Adobe products.

Though you problably need to export/import images to a readable format.

But this all exceeds the limits of the topic...

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Karmakeld
Karmakeld


Famous Hero
posted December 17, 2017 12:17 PM

Interesting idea. Is this something that you intend to to pursuit?? e.g. there's the 'restoration of heroes' project - or other attempts/ideas to start a fan based game.

I have to agree that it would make most sense to only allow neutrals/certain creature types to be convertible, as well as limit each type to certain factions. But at the same time you would most likely have to set some limits. E.g you could argue that Necropolis should be able to convert ALL creatures to undead, but that seems rather like overkill compared to other factions.
I believe you could easily find inspiration if you look at various fantasy games (both video games and board games - like heroes, warhammer etc.) or even movies.

I have no idea how to do the actual changes, but if they all use the same base model, I would asume you could simply add new layers/skins to avoid complexity.

As for terrain defined creatures/upgrades, I have to agree that it might cause too much complexity. Also keep in mind if you want to keep a limit to creatures slots, you won't be able to merge 'snow terrain bears' with 'forest terrain bears'. I think players would find that unfortunate.
However I could see terrain having impact on spells, specialty boosts or other kinds of impact as something that could work interestingly.
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