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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: 9 theses for a future fan-made Heroes game
Thread: 9 theses for a future fan-made Heroes game This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
AnkVaati
AnkVaati


Famous Hero
Nighonese National Front
posted August 28, 2018 10:42 AM
Edited by AnkVaati at 10:42, 28 Aug 2018.

10 theses for a future fan-made Heroes game

Lemme just nail these upon the Church Spider temple door:

1. The game must be strictly open source and non-profit, to avoid the wrath of the froggies at Ubisnow.
2. The game must be highly modular and designed for different people having different “builds”, developing it in different directions. For instance, if I (who rather liked H4) wanna turn the game into more of a RPG and add heroes to the battlefield, the game should be designed in a way that makes that possible. But if I also wanna add say - 4x stuff like governments, dynasties, natural deaths or whatever - I should just be able to go and design a module for that. The towns should be designed in a way that any sort of level system or any sort of creature can be put in there (for my part, I think one way of avoiding genericism and steamlining would be to simply make all creatures of the same alignment recruitable in the town of that alignment, and have a bunch of “semi-towns” for all the unaligned ones).
3. The story should continue from the Heroes 4 main plot and involve sci fi elements where applicable. NWC deviating on that point (Forge) was the start of its downfall. Unless Marzhin has crossed the line over to the dark side of the spider dragon Buddhist goddess, he could be the sort-of chief loremaster.
4. To keep it un-steamlined, the game must be designed in a way that makes the lore as un-intrusive in the actual game itself, apart from where the map designer explicitly chose it to be.
5. The factions have to be theme-based and avoid generic clichés. About at least 50% of the cretaures should be gender neutral beasts. There should be no question that the nature faction is a nature faction and not an “elf” faction, etc.
6. While avoiding genericism, the beautiful classic fantasy of the true Heroes games must be preserved. A good deal of inspiration should be taken from Graeco-Roman mythology, and from related mythologies (Celtic, Egyptian), to a lesser extent.
7. Dark elves should be banned for good. Any post-high middle ages echnology should be banned for good – unless its Ancient technology. This is not warcraft.
8. There should only be one type of dragons. Gosh, this was actually a legit point of criticism even back in the H3 days.
9. Graphics should be kept low to attract a mature audience and discourage less mature once. Vanilla WoW-level graphics at most. While I suppose a highly modular game should be playable in both 2D and 3D, I think isometric 3D works best, myself. Some recently released popular titles, like Tyranny, have featured isomteric 3D graphics.
10. Erwin should appear as giant spider the player has to overcome, somewhere in the campaign.

….. coool?
____________

Ank's Old School (kinda) H8 proposal <- best thing evvah, trust me

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 28, 2018 10:50 AM

Nah.

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blob2
blob2


Legendary Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
posted August 28, 2018 11:10 AM
Edited by blob2 at 11:13, 28 Aug 2018.

One type of Dragons? G'night!

BTW, didn't you just describe the VCMII mod? Or maybe you want something in the lines of Warcraft III or Starcraft II which have incredibly modable Map Editors based on multitude of assets, and not user-creations?

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monere
monere


Famous Hero
posted August 28, 2018 11:14 AM

Only agree with points #6 and first sentence of point #8. They are really good and a recipe for success in my opinion

As for dragons... you are right that too many of them is too much, BUT, Gold and Black dragons are iconic to the franchise, while the Faerie dragons are too unique not to be included. So, I'd say these 3 dragons are enough and welcome.

Everything else you've said is either hard to implement or impractical, especially the 1st few points where you say that everything should be as moddable as possible. Who on Earth is gonna play the new Heroes game anymore if there will be 10-20 versions of it? And which one is going to be the original anyway with so many modded versions live at the same time? Impractical and undesired if you asked me

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted August 28, 2018 01:00 PM

Moddable doesn't mean 20 versions. If you can add better speakers and air conditioner to your car, it won't become a new car, just the same car which you enjoy more because of goodies. Mods can't change the core mechanics, at least I never saw one doing that, they often provide optimization, add content as natural extent or fix existing bugs. Being moddable will become a basic requirement for any strategy game from now, if you want it to survive, and one reason for it is that developers also learn a lot from creative communities.

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monere
monere


Famous Hero
posted August 28, 2018 01:37 PM
Edited by monere at 13:38, 28 Aug 2018.

Modding, per se, is a good thing, but... have you ever seen many people who know how to mod and got their hands on something moddable without modding the hell out of that thing? Even if you have seen such people, the cases are rare because it's in the human nature to perfect things.

Again, that's NOT a bad thing, what's bad is when there are 20 people who see perfection differently (which happens all the time) and they start adding their own touch to the game. One little skill changed here... one little spell added/removed/modified there... one little hero specialty improved/changed there... and so on. Multiply these "minor improvements" by 10-20 and see how many different versions you get with the same core mechanics. Also, don't forget that each of these changes will be done to a different aspect of the game because if all modders agree on improving/changing the same things there will be only one version of the game that contains all those improvements. But this doesn't happen because - like I said - everyone sees perfection differently, and when you give 10 people the power to adjust things to how they see them perfect you'll get 10 unique version of the same thing. And that is hardly improvement, but rather different games based on the same "core" mechanics.

Salamandre said:
Moddable doesn't mean 20 versions. If you can add better speakers and air conditioner to your car, it won't become a new car, just the same car which you enjoy more because of goodies. Mods can't change the core mechanics, at least I never saw one doing that, they often provide optimization, add content as natural extent or fix existing bugs. Being moddable will become a basic requirement for any strategy game from now, if you want it to survive, and one reason for it is that developers also learn a lot from creative communities.

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Promising
Famous Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted August 29, 2018 05:43 AM

What's bad on having many versions?

BTW I don't have the time to read all, but I agree in the open source and non-profit nature.


These days with mod managers people can use and combine every mod they want. Many games support mods sthis way, even from way back. For example see Dawn of War. Another Example is Europa Universalis IV.

You can add as many mods you want and combine them organically.

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monere
monere


Famous Hero
posted August 29, 2018 08:01 AM

NimoStar said:
What's bad on having many versions?


It thins out the players because small fractions of the players will play different versions each, but... I may be wrong and not understand how modding works, because they way you've said it it implies that 20 different mods can be combined into one bigger thing to create one (albeit completely overhauled) version of the game rather than 20 smaller ones, therefore 20 slightly different spinoffs of the main game

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted August 29, 2018 08:31 AM

no, he said exactly the opposite: with mod manager you combine mods, not make one mod from many mods. Buddy, if you want to become the new Sid Meyer of Heroes, you need some technical education first

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monere
monere


Famous Hero
posted August 29, 2018 08:40 AM

Salamandre said:
no, he said exactly the opposite: with mod manager you combine mods, not make one mod from many mods. Buddy, if you want to become the new Sid Meyer of Heroes, you need some technical education first


Don't know who Sid Mayer is, but it doesn't matter anyway because technical education and idealism are different things. And I'm good at the latter only

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lantranar
lantranar

Tavern Dweller
posted August 29, 2018 09:32 AM
Edited by lantranar at 09:50, 29 Aug 2018.

monere said:
NimoStar said:
What's bad on having many versions?


It thins out the players because small fractions of the players will play different versions each, but... I may be wrong and not understand how modding works, because they way you've said it it implies that 20 different mods can be combined into one bigger thing to create one (albeit completely overhauled) version of the game rather than 20 smaller ones, therefore 20 slightly different spinoffs of the main game


Clearly you dont know how modding works. There are many ways for it to works in practice.

- map editor let you have your own setting within individual maps. It doesnt affact the general setting of the game and the multiplayer mode. it is so good and easy that no one bothers to try to mod it.

- a mod manager that let you include/exclude mod features

- even the common way that is adding multiple mod files into the same folder, it rarely gets out of hand.

There has never been a case where mods thin the player base. On the contrary, it lengthens the game lifespan. Skyrim has been living in mod support for years. Many new game genres and IPs are borns out of mod and they always make the original game more popular.

Quote:
technical education and idealism are different things. And I'm good at the latter only


Thats another way to say 'im ignorant and im proud of it', not quite a way to conduct a mature conversation.

Game development involves a lot of boring and technical works like calculating, researching and documentations. I already left out the most terrifying stuff called programming. If you think you can make a game out of ideas alone, you need to grow up.

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monere
monere


Famous Hero
posted August 29, 2018 10:38 AM
Edited by monere at 10:40, 29 Aug 2018.

lantranar said:
Clearly you dont know how modding works


clearly (no sarcasm intended)

lantranar said:
Thats another way to say 'im ignorant and im proud of it', not quite a way to conduct a mature conversation.


I disagree. No one is good at everything, therefore they are ignorant of something. Also, you should have left the "I'm proud of it" part out because it bothers me. Saying that I'm ignorant was enough to convey your point because it was true based on the fact that I mentioned, but adding "I'm proud of being ignorant" to your observation is neither true (where on Earth have I showed my pride of this fact), or necessary.


lantranar said:
Game development involves a lot of boring and technical works like calculating, researching and documentations. I already left out the most terrifying stuff called programming


I know, and it's not a problem because I'm not the one doing it. I only care about MY ideas being brought to life and carry my name, the hard work will be done by others, obviously... if I'll ever get the money

lantranar said:
If you think you can make a game out of ideas alone, you need to grow up.


Everything starts with an idea, so yes, I do think that

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lantranar
lantranar

Tavern Dweller
posted August 29, 2018 11:42 AM

monere said:
Also, you should have left the "I'm proud of it" part out because it bothers me. Saying that I'm ignorant was enough to convey your point because it was true based on the fact that I mentioned, but adding "I'm proud of being ignorant" to your observation is neither true (where on Earth have I showed my pride of this fact), or necessary.


because it doesnt lead to any constructive conclusion if you are content with the lack of knowledge. Nothing you say can be taken seriously with that attitude and I would be fine as you did say to only take your words as joke. But seriously that is not a funny joke and Im sure people would get tired of it real quick.

monere said:
lantranar said:
Game development involves a lot of boring and technical works like calculating, researching and documentations. I already left out the most terrifying stuff called programming


I know, and it's not a problem because I'm not the one doing it. I only care about MY ideas being brought to life and carry my name, the hard work will be done by others, obviously... if I'll ever get the money

Everything starts with an idea, so yes, I do think that


and most things end with lacks of either time, money or motivation, and the lack of technical knowledge drains all of those resource from you. Most people who are new to anything thinks their ideas are important. They are not. Coming up with idea is, in fact, the easiest part of the process. Limitations and how to make use/overcome them are what define creative products, idea only play a tiny part of it.

You can leave the hard and technical labour to other, but you cannot leave 'knowing those' to anyone else. You seriously need to grow up or stop reading super heroes books if you still think you can solve anything with just moneyalone.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted August 29, 2018 11:58 AM

Which he doesn't have

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monere
monere


Famous Hero
posted August 29, 2018 12:22 PM
Edited by monere at 12:24, 29 Aug 2018.

lantranar said:
because it doesnt lead to any constructive conclusion if you are content with the lack of knowledge. Nothing you say can be taken seriously with that attitude and I would be fine as you did say to only take your words as joke. But seriously that is not a funny joke and Im sure people would get tired of it real quick.



First of all, yes, take it as a joke so you won't be disappointed if my plan never comes to fruition. But know that only I, and I alone, knows what it's my head, regardless of what I am posting here. Which means that for me this isn't a joke, no matter how everyone sees it.

Secondly, many things of what I say can be taken seriously, because I can be equally serious as childish. Don't know where you got the idea that I only post rubbish but I'm sure other can attest the fact that I've spoken seriously many times before. Also, you're saying "that attitude" and it bothers me again, because I don't have no ignorant,hostile, or whatever attitude you're accusing me of. Last time I've checked people were allowed to express their opinions (even if they're only gibberish to others) freely, so I don't know why you're so against it.

Thirdly, I've never intended it to be funny. I just said "take it as a joke so you won't get disappointed". There is no fun in this, and had I known you would quibble I would have refrained from posting. Although... I do like having these controversial debates with you

lantranar said:
and most things end with lacks of either time, money or motivation


most... but not everything. And why can't my idea catch life if 99,999 other things fail? You never know what future brings man


lantranar said:
the lack of technical knowledge drains all of those resource from you


Nope. It only drains money which I don't have anyway, so at the moment it drains nothing, really


lantranar said:
Most people who are new to anything thinks their ideas are important. They are not.


??? What?? I think everyone (including you) feels that their ideas are important, so I'm not sure what's with this statement. Believing in yourself and in your ideas is equally normal, common and recommended (it builds confidence)

lantranar said:
Coming up with idea is, in fact, the easiest part of the process


Yes and no. Yes, because everyone on this planet (I'd wager including animals, too, occasionally) have their own ideas on how to do things. And No, because groundbreaking ideas are rare, and they're rare because quality ideas usually come from people with a vision mostly, and I do have that vision (well, at least I hope I do).

lantranar said:
Limitations and how to make use/overcome them are what define creative products, idea only play a tiny part of it.


I agree

lantranar said:
...if you still think you can solve anything with just moneyalone.


Money itself solves quite a few problems for everyone I'd say. But with regards to my game, it doesn't solve anything if you don't have an idea (which I do). So, I have the idea, and with money I'll also have the means to bring the idea to life (by employing people). What else is there to stop me?

In closing, I hope I wasn't too harsh on you, and if I do, I apologize. I told you that sometimes I get caught up in these heated debates where people quibble a lot, so I can't really help it

Cheers!

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monere
monere


Famous Hero
posted August 29, 2018 12:25 PM

Salamandre said:
Which he doesn't have


Don't remind me

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lantranar
lantranar

Tavern Dweller
posted August 29, 2018 01:01 PM
Edited by lantranar at 13:02, 29 Aug 2018.

monere said:
??? What?? I think everyone (including you) feels that their ideas are important, so I'm not sure what's with this statement. Believing in yourself and in your ideas is equally normal, common and recommended (it builds confidence)

lantranar said:
Coming up with idea is, in fact, the easiest part of the process


Yes and no. Yes, because everyone on this planet (I'd wager including animals, too, occasionally) have their own ideas on how to do things. And No, because groundbreaking ideas are rare, and they're rare because quality ideas usually come from people with a vision mostly, and I do have that vision (well, at least I hope I do).

Money itself solves quite a few problems for everyone I'd say. But with regards to my game, it doesn't solve anything if you don't have an idea (which I do). So, I have the idea, and with money I'll also have the means to bring the idea to life (by employing people). What else is there to stop me?


SMH... how can you be harsh on me if you only know as much as those student I teach everyday? Tho, you are right on the part that you need to get out of your house first and foremost, that way you ll learn how the world works. Even if you have money, you wont be able to get anyone to do what you want if you cannot grasp the nature of the work you assign them.

The idea part is truly is the easiest part of the process. Every school and every failure, experience in life will teach you that. You are not the only one with idea, and with every single one you can come up with, hundreds, or thousands of other people have already done so before you. In every design project, you ll have to brainstorm dozens of ideas before you can pick ONE to finalize it.

I value ideas, but I am not ignorant to ever think that they are the only thing I need to get my job done. Ideas need contexts, conditions and executions to realize.

Quote:
most... but not everything. And why can't my idea catch life if 99,999 other things fail?You never know what future brings man


same as saying "im dreaming and I don't know what i'm talking about". A dream without attitude and effort (which you have shown none) is a delusion. Again, its fine for you if this is your way to entertain yourself but its hard to take anything you say seriously like this, and your post hold next to none constructive information.

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monere
monere


Famous Hero
posted August 29, 2018 01:09 PM

@lantranar... Again I disagree with most of what you've said, but I'm not in mood for arguing anymore. Some other time maybe

Cheers!

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lantranar
lantranar

Tavern Dweller
posted August 29, 2018 01:51 PM
Edited by lantranar at 13:56, 29 Aug 2018.

Got cauhgt up with some useless argument so Im late to reply to your ideas, some are intersting so heres my thought

AnkVaati said:
1. The game must be strictly open source and non-profit, to avoid the wrath of the froggies at Ubisnow.

open source, checked. Non-profit? how the hell can you get codes and graphic materials then ? To avoid problem from Ubi you only need to make new IPs. Might and Magic is a no-go and it mostly refer to the RPG franchises so just call it Heroes of Black Jack and Hookers and we are fine.

AnkVaati said:
2. The game must be highly modular and designed for different people having different “builds”, developing it in different directions.

For my plan right now, im split between having a map editor route like Warcraft 3 and a mod manager route. Its fine to just modify the built-in assets that already exist in game, but how can you let players to add new assets(for example, new gfx, new models, animations)?
im planning to make a 2d game, and bone-animating, which leave little room for others to add more model into it.
Sprite-sheets animation is also oneway to go, but not very desirable to me due to many limitations : the animation is stiff, or too memory consuming, or too outdated looking.
I wonder how does it work with Heroes 4 animation.


AnkVaati said:
3. The story should continue from the Heroes 4 main plot and involve sci fi elements where applicable. NWC deviating on that point (Forge) was the start of its downfall

nah, Axeoth is as generic as it can get (still better than Ashan tho) and has little to do with the campaigns' plot. The new games can be based on any setting, the gameplay mechanics are more important.

AnkVaati said:
4. To keep it un-steamlined, the game must be designed in a way that makes the lore as un-intrusive in the actual game itself, apart from where the map designer explicitly chose it to be.
5. The factions have to be theme-based and avoid generic clichés. About at least 50% of the cretaures should be gender neutral beasts. There should be no question that the nature faction is a nature faction and not an “elf” faction, etc.


basically avoid H5+6+7 approach then. I also hate the color-themed and racially themed factions.

AnkVaati said:
6. While avoiding genericism, the beautiful classic fantasy of the true Heroes games must be preserved. A good deal of inspiration should be taken from Graeco-Roman mythology, and from related mythologies (Celtic, Egyptian), to a lesser extent.

what about Nordic, Asian, Arabic mythology? What about Lovecraftian mythologies? Personally I would like to combine all of them in a modern interpretation.

AnkVaati said:
7. Dark elves should be banned for good. Any post-high middle ages echnology should be banned for good – unless its Ancient technology. This is not warcraft.

so... no gun? H3 had gun, you know. Im not sure about this point, kinda contradict with your 4th point.

AnkVaati said:
8. There should only be one type of dragons. Gosh, this was actually a legit point of criticism even back in the H3 days.

interesting, what kind of criticism was there? personally I like the bone dragon and the faery dragon, the rest (green, red, black) could belong to only one faction. What about Asian dragon then ?

AnkVaati said:
9. Graphics should be kept low to attract a mature audience and discourage less mature once. Vanilla WoW-level graphics at most. While I suppose a highly modular game should be playable in both 2D and 3D, I think isometric 3D works best, myself. Some recently released popular titles, like Tyranny, have featured isomteric 3D graphics.

Uncanny valley is a thing. If you cannot keep up with modern graphic standard, you dated graphic can only push players away. Your only choices are:
-stylized 3d (color block, low poly, low res, low detailed texture)
-2d graphic (hand drawn)
-2d (pre-rendered 3d models like H3,H4)
-pixel graphics (cheap, but not to my liking)
the first approach tend to be cartoonist and therefore not very popular to matured audience, so we only have the other 2. My pick is the second as 2d graphic is my main strength.
Tyranny and Pillars of Eternity use pre-rendered environment and 3d characters. Basically you still need to model and texturized everything in high details to begin with so it ll need a lot of time, money and effort. I dont think any small team can do it.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted August 29, 2018 05:28 PM

monere said:
Last time I've checked people were allowed to express their opinions (even if they're only gibberish to others) freely,


Reminds me Plato: "wise men speak because they have something to say; fools because they have to say something."

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