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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Specialising in level 7 units
Thread: Specialising in level 7 units This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted September 19, 2018 05:56 PM

Specialising in level 7 units

I wonder if heroes, who specialise in level 7 units, would be overpowered.
Level 7 creature specialists would gain bonus to attack, defense (and a one time +1 speed) for every 7th level, based on the original attack and defense values of those creatures.
So creatures like Archangels, Arch Devils, Gold and Black Dragons would probably get too large a bonus, but what about creatures like Ghost Dragons, Ancient Behemoths and Chaos Hydras, with relative low Attack and Defense stats, would these also be overpowered?
There is also the speed bonus to consider, Ghost Dragons would move from 14 -> 15 speed, making Necropolis overall faster, speed of Stronghold and Fortress would remain unchanged, due to other faster creatures in those factions.
If level 7 creature specialists existed, would you prefer them to Logistics, Offense and Armorer specialists?, or other creature specialists?

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monere
monere


Famous Hero
posted September 19, 2018 06:18 PM

level 7 specialists do exist (xeron, killgor, mutare). I think in WoG they only give them +5 ATT and DEF, maybe 5 more damage, too, but not more than this, and with these bonuses they're not spectacular. Not in the games I play anyway (games that end in month 12). I think these bonuses would matter more in early game, but in the long-ass games that I play 5 ATT/DEF more or less matters squat.

Also, even if Ghost Dragons would get +1 speed they would still 5uck .... I mean, think about Cape of Velocity. That item gives all creatures +2 speed. So what? Did you ever lose a game to Ghost Dragons acting first? The problems with Necropolis come from the hoardes of skeletons and dread knights, no matter what everyone will tell you.

With Archangels things might be different, cause that's one gay-a55 creature. Even without bonuses they rape pretty much everything, if you give them +1 speed it would be bad (albeit not game over yet). But with extra bonus to att / def and damage... well, you'll figure out yourself

Chaos Hydras and Ancient Behemots would be improved with these bonuses, especially since... 1) chaos hydras do need some boosts since Fortress is pretty hard to pull victories with anyway, and... 2) ancient behemoths will shred you anyway, with or without extra speed or damage

The only question remains the Phoenixes, and the Gold / Black Dragons.... Oh, the Archdevils and Titans, too actually. Well, given the tactical creature that the Archdevil is, I think extra damage and/or ATT / DEF might help this creature, but again, not as much as to easily win games. I have played Xeron many times in WoG, and even though the ADs get nice bonuses in WoG they still don't win the game for me. Again, in early game these stats might matter for some creatures (definitely for the snow angels, and maybe for devils, too, but I still don't know what to say about dragons as I rarely play with those creatures)

Also, if level 7 creatures existed.... they do exist, but probably not the way you intend them to be... anyway, if they existed the way you want to make them I think they would still be better than logistics specialists. Kyrre / Gunnar / Dessa are just too strong in any mid-late game, and if they happen to find Angel Wings.... well, you get the idea


Not sure what to say/think about offense/armor specialists, though...

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted September 19, 2018 06:43 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 18:46, 19 Sep 2018.

Thanks Monere

I know about Xeron, Kilgor, Undead Lord Haart, Mutare and Mutare Drake, but those are static bonuses, I'm thinking of dynamic bonuses.

Yes Archangels are damn strong and there is no reason to make them even stronger with a speciality, but I'm thinking about implementing a Ghost Dragon, Behemoth and Hydra specialist, but I'm not sure if they would perhaps be too strong… The skills of those heroes should perhaps be less desireable, to compensate a bit for the strong creature bonuses.

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monere
monere


Famous Hero
posted September 19, 2018 07:19 PM
Edited by monere at 19:21, 19 Sep 2018.

No problem buddy. I love giving my (unwated) opinion

Now, if you're gonna give +1 ATT and/or DEF every 7 levels it's Ok, even for the fagg0t Archangels. This means that at level 21 the level 7 creatures would get only +3 ATT and/or DEF, which is acceptable. It still wouldn't be as gay as the logistics specialists, actually... they wouldn't beat the offense/armorer specialists either in gayness, so you can go ahead and create them if you want. I just don't see the point, though, because - as I understood from reading through the HC threads - the pros end the game before month 2 / level 10 of their main heroes, and at that point +1 ATT / DEF on level 7 creatures matters squat. And the newbies (like me) who play the game for 12 months and fight the AI at the end of month 12 would probably see a difference in these bonuses, but still not a large enough difference to consider the game won.

I'll give you an example... 2-3 months ago I have played against the AI, which had +9 more ATT and DEF than my hero's ATT and DEF, and the AI also had Titans, Archangels, and Behemoths, while I was having Gold / Black Dragons and Phoenixes... among other creatures, obviously.

Well, my 2100 Gold Dragons would deal 110k damage on the AI's Titans, while my 8500 dendroid soldiers (with bless on them) would deal... 415k damage on the same Titans. Both our heroes (mine, and the AI's) were level 60-61 (somewhere around there).

Now, my question for you is this: how much more damage would a dragons specialist add to the Gold Dragons at level 60 in a fight like that?? I'd assume the dragons would get around 8-9 more ATT / DEF (which would really only level the AI's stats in this case), and in terms of damage that would probably translate into an extra 10-20k damage (just a guess). Still can't compete with the 400k damage of the dendroids which really have been the reason I have won that game... despite of losing the first 2-3 times to the AI

So, again, you won't break the game with these specialists - not more than logistics specialists break it anyway - but you shouldn't bother with it because even in early game (when these stats matters more) the already established specialists (Xeron, Kilgor, etc.) are still better than your creations.

At least that's how I see it

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted September 19, 2018 07:31 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 19:36, 19 Sep 2018.

I think you misunderstood. Level 7 creature specialists would give bonus per 7th level, but not 1 attack and 1 defense every time, it depends on the creatures initial attack and defense. (Same as normal creature specialities.)
I actually checked what a level 30 7th level creature specialist would get, you can see it here:
Archangel: 6 attack & 6 defense (+1 speed)
Gold Dragon: 6 attack & 6 defense (+1 speed)
Arch Devil: 6 attack & 6 defense (+1 speed)

Titan: 5 attack & 5 defense (+1 speed)
Black Dragon: 5 attack & 5 defense (+1 speed)

Phoenix: 5 attack & 4 defense (+1 speed)

Ghost Dragon: 4 attack & 4 defense (+1 speed)
Ancient Behemoth: 4 attack & 4 defense (+1 speed)
Chaos Hydra: 4 attack & 4 defense (+1 speed)

(At level 60 you can about double the bonusses I listed.)

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monere
monere


Famous Hero
posted September 19, 2018 07:46 PM

Yep, I misunderstood indeed. But I still haven't been off by much

For example, Mutare gives +5 ATT / DEF and 5 damage PERMANENTLY to ALL dragons under that hero's command, while "your" dragons would get the same bonus at level 30.

Now, if you care about newbies more than about the pros - which you shouldn't to be honest, if you wish to make a good game - an extra +1, hell, even +6 ATT / DEF won't matter much for the reasons I explained above (other creatures do more damage then level 7 creatures, even if those level 7 creatures are under level 7 creature specialists)

And if you're making these changes with the pros in mind, the pros don't get to level 30 too often to notice this bonus. Like I said - and this is actually what pros are saying - most games between pros usually end before month 2 and/or their heroes get to level 10, and at that level the bonuses your creature specialists receive are not notable. The standard creature specialists (Xeron, Mutare, etc.) are much better at level 10-20 than the heroes you wish to create, which is why I don't see the point of these heroes.

But wait for other people's input, too

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted September 19, 2018 07:51 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 19:55, 19 Sep 2018.

Honestly I don't give a damn about "the pros", I consider this change for me and my friends.

And I don't like the 7th level specialists with static bonuses, because they are static. Their special is always the same, which is boring to me. It's for the same reason I changed all Planeswalkers from static to dynamic specialty. (And also beacuse Lacus and Kalt sucked. )

Just for your information my games usually end around level 23-27.

But thanks for your inputs anyway.

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monere
monere


Famous Hero
posted September 19, 2018 08:04 PM
Edited by monere at 20:04, 19 Sep 2018.

Hehe you're pissed

I will admit that I don't like static bonuses, either, honestly. But... even so, Xeron and the others are still more entertaining than what you're trying to implement. It's much easier to get excited over +5 than by +1 once in a blue moon

Anyway, if this is for you and your friends only I don't think you need other people's opinions because only your tastes matter. If you feel that a static bonus is too boring you should definitely make the changes you want.

From an improvement point of view, though... I think the standard heroes are better for the reasons I explained.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted September 19, 2018 08:07 PM

No I am not pissed, but I guess we don't agree 100% on this subject and that's fine.
I just wanted to hear if people thought a Ghost Dragon, Behemoth and Hydra specialist would be overpowered, but yeah maybe I should just find out myself.

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monere
monere


Famous Hero
posted September 19, 2018 08:24 PM

Yeah, we're not agreeing...

I still think it won't make those creatures overpowered. The Behemoths are the nastier creature of the 3 you've mentioned, and the extra stats + speed might make them more difficult to deal with, but the ghost dragons and chaos hydras are generally weak and could benefit from those bonuses.

But, what do I know? I play against the AI

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avatar
avatar


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted September 19, 2018 08:34 PM

phoenix4ever said:
No I am not pissed, but I guess we don't agree 100% on this subject and that's fine.
I just wanted to hear if people thought a Ghost Dragon, Behemoth and Hydra specialist would be overpowered, but yeah maybe I should just find out myself.


At extra large+ maps such specialties could be OP due to high hero levelling.
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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted September 19, 2018 08:34 PM

monere said:
The Behemoths are the nastier creature of the 3 you've mentioned, and the extra stats + speed might make them more difficult to deal with, but the ghost dragons and chaos hydras are generally weak and could benefit from those bonuses.

But, what do I know? I play against the AI

This we actually agree on 100%. I'm also most concerned about the Behemoths, they already pack a punch and the extra attack might not make a lot of difference, but extra defense will make them last longer, plus they can reach their target faster with speed 10. But Chaos Hydras can also be deadly if they hit 2-4 targets at the same time, even Ghost Dragons can be dangerous if they apply Ageing. But I'm still not sure...

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monere
monere


Famous Hero
posted September 19, 2018 08:52 PM

phoenix4ever said:
This we actually agree on 100%. I'm also most concerned about the Behemoths, they already pack a punch and the extra attack might not make a lot of difference, but extra defense will make them last longer, plus they can reach their target faster with speed 10. But Chaos Hydras can also be deadly if they hit 2-4 targets at the same time, even Ghost Dragons can be dangerous if they apply Ageing. But I'm still not sure...


Nah, the ghost dragons are crap, regardless of the extra 4-5 ATT and DEF. I'm sure your opponent will still worry about the thousands skeletons more than the dragons

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted September 19, 2018 08:57 PM

In HotA Necromancy was halved, so your skeleton hordes won't be that intimidating, now Dread Knights and Vampire Lords on the other hand…
Damn I can't decide this, guess I need to test all 3 imaginary heroes out.

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Otuken
Otuken


Known Hero
posted September 19, 2018 09:00 PM

Why would they be overpowered since tons of overpowered/unbalanced heroes are already exist like Crag Hack, Gunnar, Tazar, Isra etc. Creature specialist heroes are all terrible besides Galthran because they boost very little their units compared to their levels. They were suuposed to be able to give exra attack/defence/HP to their units in each level up. I would never prefer them over attack/defense/logistics specialists. Also low level unit specialists are already better than high level creature specialists.
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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted September 19, 2018 09:05 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 21:06, 19 Sep 2018.

@Otuken
Yes you have a good point, but we are talking about buffed up level 7 units and would it be fair to give those heroes to some factions and not to others, but yeah since Logistics, Offense and Armorer specialists are allowed, why not level 7 specialists...

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monere
monere


Famous Hero
posted September 19, 2018 09:06 PM

I agree with the other guy (won't name him): logistics specialists are already too GAY, so a few extra heroes won't make much of a difference, especially since they can't compete with the logistics freaks.

But, better test it yourself if you don't like our suggestions

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted September 19, 2018 09:12 PM

I DO like your suggetions ...and I'll probably test it myself.

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Lth3
Lth3


Known Hero
posted September 19, 2018 09:14 PM
Edited by Lth3 at 21:15, 19 Sep 2018.

monere said:
And if you're making these changes with the pros in mind, the pros don't get to level 30 too often to notice this bonus. Like I said - and this is actually what pros are saying - most games between pros usually end before month 2 and/or their heroes get to level 10, and at that level the bonuses your creature specialists receive are not notable. The standard creature specialists (Xeron, Mutare, etc.) are much better at level 10-20 than the heroes you wish to create, which is why I don't see the point of these heroes.


before month 2 hits it's usually about lvl 25 if you have 1 main hero. maybe less if you have more

my opinion: OP on Angels and Phoenixes or any other troop that you can get from banks or higher growth. otherwise weak, or medium-good, but only if you get lucky finding external dwellings on map. with just your town growth this bonus will be unnoticable

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted September 20, 2018 06:36 AM
Edited by bloodsucker at 06:37, 20 Sep 2018.

@phoenix4ever As Monere pointed, there are already some level 7 specialists but they are different from Galthran and Shakti, they give a flat bonus. Now, level 1 specialists are quite good early game cause they come with hordes of creatures and rapidly increase their stats significantly but they lose pace as those creatures become a waste, later on.
Flat bonus heroes are also quite good early game, when a red dragon with extra 5 points of attack and defense becomes stronger then an angel but latter on even Neela will be giving much better bonus then Mutare or Xeron.
I'm not sure if outside WoG people often get their heroes to level 60 but in my case, playing HotA Giant maps, I rarely get my main above level 40, even if I usually have some other heroes that are pretty close to him, so those bonus increasing with level wouldn't be that overpowered. I would always prefer a Logistics, Offense, Armorer or even Intelligence specialist to any level 7 creature specialist.
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