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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: Rethinking Necromancy
Thread: Rethinking Necromancy This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted October 25, 2018 09:12 AM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 09:32, 25 Oct 2018.

Rethinking Necromancy

Necromancy always makes Skeletons or Skeleton Warriors, unless you have that gamebreaking Cloak Of The Undead King. But what if you could make other undead from other creatures or some creatures could'nt be used for Necromancy at all.
For example:
Mages, Monks and Enchanters -> Liches
Cavaliers and Unicorns -> Black Knights
Hydras, (Sea Serpents in HotA) all Dragons, excluding Bone and Ghost Dragons -> Bone Dragons
Undead, Elementals, Golems and Gargoyles -> Does not work with Necromancy

Could'nt the above make Necromancy a bit more interesting? Cloak Of The Undead King should probably only give bonus to Necromancy then.
Additionally creatures could be transformed in the Undead Transformer. (Skeleton Transformer)

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Dj
Dj


Promising
Supreme Hero
Always loyal to HC
posted October 25, 2018 10:50 AM

I think that, in order to make it balanced, every creature should have a susceptibility (true or false) to necromancy. This could make necropolis efficient or less efficient against certain towns or builds (since we re getting closer and closer to alternate upgrades in VCMI).

Also each creature from a specific level should correspond to the same level in necropolis. I mean, it sux to transform elves or swordsmen into skeletons. Sure, if gives you more space and your troops are organized and stacked and the morale is neutral, but you lose a lot of stats and abilities.

And another idea that would make necromancy more balanced: create a skill that is similar to necromancy for each faction. Alchemists: create golems, beastmaster: summon beasts, planeswalker: call elementals, demoniac: gating demons etc.

I'm trying to study the codes in VCMI's .json and it does not seem too hard but there are some lines of codes that I simply dont know what they re doing or where can i learn that, otherwise i would do this myself.

I think this game needs more homogeneity in terms of what a faction can achieve in a game, especially since VCMI supports G (or XG?) maps which last extremely long, therefore the rushing strategy of fortress and stronghold becomes unreliable (they also need the same level of magic).



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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted October 25, 2018 11:31 AM

I like your idea of level to level conversion Dj. Though I still think it should'nt work against undead, elementals, golems are gargoyles. (Actually I dont think First Aid and the healing from Cure should affect them either)

It would be interesting if other factions had there own kind of Necromancy, like gating and summoning etc., but that requires a lot of work.

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Lth3
Lth3


Known Hero
posted October 25, 2018 12:25 PM
Edited by Lth3 at 12:29, 25 Oct 2018.

Stronghold and Fortress are bum factions which uses the resources of others. even if they use only 1 troop from their town - Ancients are really strong and Hydras, even if not that good, you can compensate with Gorgons - that in the right amounts will eat any lvl 7 like crackers for snack

they don't need any balancing in my opinion. they even have strongest heroes

same logic would apply then to nerf Conflux. since they are the strongest when relying on its own town only ( all 4 magic schools on demand )

phoenix4ever said:
Hydras, (Sea Serpents in HotA) all Dragons, excluding Bone and Ghost Dragons -> Bone Dragons


why not Beghs and Birds also? and Ghost to Bone if you wanna be silly ?

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dj
dj


Promising
Supreme Hero
Always loyal to HC
posted October 25, 2018 12:35 PM
Edited by dj at 13:29, 25 Oct 2018.

phoenix4ever said:
I like your idea of level to level conversion Dj. Though I still think it should'nt work against undead, elementals, golems are gargoyles. (Actually I dont think First Aid and the healing from Cure should affect them either)



I agreed with that. Dendroids and giants, would enter this category as well. They re still golems.
EDIT: and crystal dragons

Quote:
Stronghold and Fortress are bum factions which uses the resources of others. even if they use only 1 troop from their town - Ancients are really strong and Hydras, even if not that good, you can compensate with Gorgons - that in the right amounts will eat any lvl 7 like crackers for snack



A friend of mine stopped playing with me after i rekted his might army with my magic. i had the fastest creature in the game and i cast expert level slow and then implosion and chain lightning on every unit he had. He also had the number advantage on me. He barely touched me. They re strong, but late game magic wins over might, unless you combine them but stronghold and fortress rely on conquering factions which have lv 5 mage guils. That is why i specified on which kind of map they become unreliable, that is G or XG maps which is a thing in VCMI. And FYI, it's just my opinion, not a fact.

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Lth3
Lth3


Known Hero
posted October 25, 2018 03:17 PM
Edited by Lth3 at 15:22, 25 Oct 2018.

Ring template has only 1 town each, no matter the size. so Stronghold and Fortress are at a disadvantage there. but so is Castle and Cove if you look at it that way. would Town Portal be any good if you only have 1 town?

dj said:
A friend of mine stopped playing with me after i rekted his might army with my magic. i had the fastest creature in the game and i cast expert level slow and then implosion and chain lightning on every unit he had.


he should have Blinded your fastest unit, and then proceeded with a big grin casting Mass Haste and tarnishing your glass cannon army next turn

dj said:
He also had the number advantage on me. He barely touched me. They re strong, but late game magic wins over might, unless you combine them but stronghold and fortress rely on conquering factions which have lv 5 mage guils. That is why i specified on which kind of map they become unreliable, that is G or XG maps which is a thing in VCMI. And FYI, it's just my opinion, not a fact.


try sampling HotA for magic balance ( Resistance skill, artifacts and spells )

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dj
dj


Promising
Supreme Hero
Always loyal to HC
posted October 25, 2018 03:24 PM

Lth3 said:
Ring template has only 1 town each, no matter the size. so Stronghold and Fortress are at a disadvantage there. but so is Castle and Cove if you look at it that way. would Town Portal be any good if you only have 1 town?


IMHO, yes. Because it doesnt only teleport you to another city but it can teleport you to your single owned city when your opponent is 2-3 days away from it and your main hero is on the other side of the map.

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Lth3
Lth3


Known Hero
posted October 25, 2018 03:27 PM

that's what teleporting to tavern is for silly

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orzie
orzie


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted October 25, 2018 04:42 PM

Quote:
Unicorns -> Black Knights

Dude, I hope you aren't serious.
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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted October 25, 2018 04:48 PM

Why not?, they are both (on) horses.

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Kipshasz
Kipshasz


Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
posted October 25, 2018 05:13 PM

phoenix4ever said:
Why not?, they are both (on) horses.


how does this


Translate into this?

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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted October 25, 2018 05:47 PM

Ehm how does almost any creature turn into a skeleton, even an elemental or a golem???
I don't see why Unicorn -> Black Knight sounds so strange.

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TheUnknown
TheUnknown


Known Hero
posted October 25, 2018 06:36 PM

phoenix4ever said:
Ehm how does almost any creature turn into a skeleton, even an elemental or a golem???
I don't see why Unicorn -> Black Knight sounds so strange.


Couldn't agree more.

If you look at HOMM IV, there it works on the basis of one level lower than the creatures you kill, that is also an option if we would want better balance.

But I do love the option to have some creatures that are immune to transformation to undead and simply not count for the necromancy skill.

Let's say you may not be able to get skeletons from dendroids or lifesteal from them, that way it will make them more likely to be used by the rampart players against necropolis. Also the Unicorns may be able to turn to Black knights but can be immune to aging. There can be balance for each town against each town if we feel that those things are the only things that restrain us from nearly perfect balance.

So for example:
Quote:

sprites cannot be skeletons
dwarves can be zombies but are immune to disease
elves can be witches but cannot be cursed
pegasi can be vampires but are immune to black knigts special strike
dendroids cannot be liches and are immune to lifesteal (more buffs because they are slow)
unicorns can be black knights but are immune to aging
dragons can de dragons of course but are immune to the lich cloud aoe



I love the concept and potential this kind of balance has.

The only problem is maps that are poor with creatures for necromancy or transformation. It might make the necropolis too weak.

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Dj
Dj


Promising
Supreme Hero
Always loyal to HC
posted October 25, 2018 08:24 PM
Edited by Dj at 20:24, 25 Oct 2018.

orzie said:
Quote:
Unicorns -> Black Knights

Dude, I hope you aren't serious.


Just slap some armor on a skeleton and put in on a raised-from-the-dead unicorn.

And from a necromancer's point of view, it's such a waste to turn all those juicy high lvl creatures into a lvl 1 skeleton.


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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted October 26, 2018 04:06 AM

I've coded those types of things in WoG scripts and believe me: it easily gets completely out of proportion. Even 30% of all Dragons from topes and all those level three from creatures banks can became stacks ten or twenty times greater then the ones from any opponent.
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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted October 26, 2018 08:20 AM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 08:22, 26 Oct 2018.

Of course higher level creatures need to have much smaller percentages, but yeah I guess things could easily get out of hand. But so did original Necromancy and especially Cloak Of The Undead King!

Converting creatures to it's undead counterpart, (on the same level) in the transformer, should'nt be unbalanced and would allow for more variation though.

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RerryR
RerryR


Promising
Supreme Hero
Researching Magic
posted October 26, 2018 09:08 AM
Edited by RerryR at 09:10, 26 Oct 2018.

You could make a cap. For example you can never raise more than 7% of your level 1 units, 6% of lvl 2 5%lvl3, 4%lvl4... and lvl 7 units cannot be raised at all. (I mean the units your hero currently has in its army)

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PandaTar
PandaTar


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
posted October 26, 2018 09:04 PM
Edited by PandaTar at 21:11, 26 Oct 2018.

You can also tweak with cap and failure. Having a % capped on the killed units, you could also have a % of failure on those numbers, in which a less skilled hero is more prone on failing when trying to convert the undead. That idea can be added to the building at town, with grants a fixed % of success.

I personally see nothing wrong when you convert swordsmen, elves and whatnot into skeletons. I always thought that the main point on Necromancy were numbers, not quality. And seeing in that perspective, I cannot think that a rotten skeleton raised from the body of a humanoid should be strong.

Another idea you can orbit thinking around is adding a status aliment called Zombified or something. The troop retains all original abilities, but all primary stats are halved, for example, plus acquiring the No morale and mind immunity. Regarding some units are too powerful if having No Morale and Mind Immunity, their stats penalty must compensate somehow; perhaps these troops stop having their ATT and DEF bonuses from any of the heroes, as if they had become neutral units. And on the top of it, a % cap and % failure to work with. Also, could consider that the Zombified stats un-upgrade those units, so they can only be the first form of a creature, allowing it to stack. Zombified units are automatically sent to the nearest town.

On that Zombified setting, you can also consider lifespan of the troops, how much time will they be available, if you can recast the Zombified effect to keep them, or if, by the end of the lifespan, they all convert to their weaker counterparts undead, skeletons, zombies and ghosts.

Magic immune and inanimated units would always be impossible to Zombify, and some dragons, which are not immune to magic, would have high odds of failure by necromancy.

But I have no idea how coding works, so it all must not be feasible at all.
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"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS Portal 2

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revolut1oN
revolut1oN


Famous Hero
posted October 27, 2018 08:36 AM

phoenix4ever said:
Converting creatures to it's undead counterpart, (on the same level) in the transformer, should'nt be unbalanced and would allow for more variation though.


That would make necro 10 times more broken than it is now, and it already is one of the strongest faction on most templates.

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phe
phe


Famous Hero
Life and Freedom
posted October 27, 2018 09:12 AM
Edited by phe at 09:18, 27 Oct 2018.

if raising undeads of any kind costed 2-3 movement points per 1 HP Necromancy wouldn't be overpowered...

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