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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Sorcery Specialists
Thread: Sorcery Specialists This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
Rimgrabber
Rimgrabber


Known Hero
It's a fixer-upper
posted July 13, 2020 06:37 PM

Sorcery Specialists

Random question: What is everyone's opinion on the sorcery specialists, especially on larger maps? I know typically sorcery is not typically a desired skill since 15% is a fairly small boost, but with Sandro/Zydar/Malekith etc there's a 45% boost at level 40 which would mean some pretty insane implosions and meteor showers. I don't really play multiplayer though, I'm just not very good at this game lol.
____________
http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=46284&pagenumber=1
^ Part 2 of my proposal for Heroes 8 (Part 3 coming soon)

http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=44815
^ My novelization

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted July 13, 2020 07:28 PM

Level 40 < Orb of that School. Enough said...
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The only reason i argue with you people is because i don't want the bullsnow you all spout to be so easily spread to the impressionable without another sane voice challenging you.  -  Fred79

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monere
monere


Supreme Hero
posted July 13, 2020 07:32 PM

bloodsucker said:
Level 40 < Orb of that School. Enough said...
but aren't the orb's effects and sorcery cumulative?
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Rimgrabber
Rimgrabber


Known Hero
It's a fixer-upper
posted July 15, 2020 03:50 PM

Yeah and furthermore that's still a much bigger boost than creature or spell specialists provide(exception of galthran maybe). So that makes sorcery specialists in the top 10% of heroes easily, probably just below offense, armorer, intelligence and logistics specialists.
____________
http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=46284&pagenumber=1
^ Part 2 of my proposal for Heroes 8 (Part 3 coming soon)

http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=44815
^ My novelization

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monere
monere


Supreme Hero
posted July 15, 2020 04:10 PM

Rimgrabber said:
Yeah and furthermore that's still a much bigger boost than creature or spell specialists provide(exception of galthran maybe). So that makes sorcery specialists in the top 10% of heroes easily, probably just below offense, armorer, intelligence and logistics specialists.
logically, you are right. Practically, however, I have yet to see spellcaster classes own might classes in HoMM3. Ok, in early game casters kick ass, but mid to late game they get thrashed by the offemce / armor specialists and I think this is because of the ultra-powerful mass haste / mass slow spells. These spells should be at least level 4 in my opinion
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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted July 15, 2020 04:43 PM

It's easy to decrease the effect of Haste/Slow or increase mana cost, but yeah makes no sense they are level 1, when Prayer is level 4.

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted July 15, 2020 04:56 PM
Edited by bloodsucker at 12:51, 16 Jul 2020.

And makes less sense they aren't available at all for two towns.
Plus, several heroes start with Slow and at least three even have Haste specialty. One too many heroes with level 4 spells as initial spell, if you ask me...
____________
The only reason i argue with you people is because i don't want the bullsnow you all spout to be so easily spread to the impressionable without another sane voice challenging you.  -  Fred79

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted July 15, 2020 05:27 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 17:28, 15 Jul 2020.

Haste and Slow are available at all towns, including Cove in HotA.

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Hourglass
Hourglass


Famous Hero
posted July 15, 2020 07:09 PM

Sorcery specialists have endless room of growth, but in general they're pretty bad heroes. They kinda ask you to build around them, but they don't give all that much back. The problem with them in gerenal is that they start very slowly, as the bonuses you get are nearly unnoticeable, and still using mana (which you don't have much in the beginning) is still required in order to get atleast some value. Eventually, they will outscale the creature specialists, but before that happens, I would say most of the creature specialist are capable of giving the player unrivaled tempo and early game advantage.

It could be really good if one could find a lvl 30 sorcery specialist from prison, as that allows them to "skip" the early game, but the problem there is magic heroes tend to roll bad skills, so hero would likely not be all that powerful even in that case.

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted July 16, 2020 06:43 AM
Edited by bloodsucker at 06:47, 16 Jul 2020.

phoenix4ever said:
Haste and Slow are available at all towns, including Cove in HotA.

Yeah! But they wouldn't be if they were promoted to level 4...
____________
The only reason i argue with you people is because i don't want the bullsnow you all spout to be so easily spread to the impressionable without another sane voice challenging you.  -  Fred79

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Phoenix4ever
Phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted July 16, 2020 07:50 AM

Oh that's what you meant, yeah that would handicap Fortress and Stronghold, which is not a good idea imo. They could become level 3 spells though. (And Blind and Hypnotize could switch places.)

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted July 16, 2020 01:06 PM
Edited by bloodsucker at 13:16, 16 Jul 2020.

I believe that wouldn't be a good idea for two reasons:
1. as I said before, there are too many heroes starting with the spells, some not even magic heroes. It would be strange to have so many heroes with crucial level 3 spells.
2. While expert Slow and Haste are no doubt overpowered, not having them at all until you find the resources and spend the turns building level 3 mage guilds could be a disaster, at least where monsters in starting areas weren't set to Weak.
OTOH, it would make Scholar even more valuable wish is always good in my book.

Rimgrabber said:
that's still a much bigger boost than creature or spell specialists provide(exception of galthran maybe). So that makes sorcery specialists in the top 10% of heroes easily, probably just below offense, armorer, intelligence and logistics specialists.

After Intelligence and Resurrection (to teach and Alamar even starts with Scholar), Sorcery is the best magic specialty. It beats mages and monks specialists for sure but I would bet at least Shakti, Galthran and Cassiopeia will do more damage with a Magic Arrow week two then Styg...

____________
The only reason i argue with you people is because i don't want the bullsnow you all spout to be so easily spread to the impressionable without another sane voice challenging you.  -  Fred79

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted July 16, 2020 01:15 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 13:16, 16 Jul 2020.

Yeah I tend to agree with you, because Haste and Slow are so crucial in battle. It would be great if single Haste/Slow were level 1 and mass were level 3. Maybe single Prayer could have been level 2 then, but splitting spells like that is probably not possible sadly.

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted July 16, 2020 01:23 PM
Edited by bloodsucker at 13:24, 16 Jul 2020.

I overall agree but the single/mass structure makes no sense if applied to only these two spells. Just think about how strange Fire Shield and Slayer not massing looks right now...
____________
The only reason i argue with you people is because i don't want the bullsnow you all spout to be so easily spread to the impressionable without another sane voice challenging you.  -  Fred79

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted July 16, 2020 01:34 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 13:44, 16 Jul 2020.

It could be done for most (all) other mass spells as well.
Level 4 Slayer could easily have been mass (I already made it mass myself.) then level 2 could have been single Slayer.
Not sure about Fire Shield, I find it really annoying fighting Efreet Sultans and sometimes AI cast Fire Shield, which is also annoying. So not sure if mass would be too much for Fire Shield, but maybe an area effect, with Fireball radius if possible.

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zmudziak22
zmudziak22


Supreme Hero
Heroes 3 Fan
posted July 16, 2020 01:54 PM

No, Fire Shield should be mass spell like Earth Shield and Air Shield.
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Rimgrabber
Rimgrabber


Known Hero
It's a fixer-upper
posted July 16, 2020 07:02 PM
Edited by Rimgrabber at 19:11, 16 Jul 2020.

Quote:

No, Fire Shield should be mass spell like Earth Shield and Air Shield.



I think that Slayer should be mass and Fire Shield should have an AoE effect like Berzerk does. Fire Magic is really underpowered as a skill because in 9/10 cases you can use the most important fire spells effectively without any investment. It's not a terrible skill, but there's really no reason to pick it over the other 3 schools, which are all IMO very solid skills.

Quote:
After Intelligence and Resurrection (to teach and Alamar even starts with Scholar), Sorcery is the best magic specialty. It beats mages and monks specialists for sure but I would bet at least Shakti, Galthran and Cassiopeia will do more damage with a Magic Arrow week two then Styg...


Probably true but I'd also argue Witches are a uniquely terrible class, maybe along with Druids.

As for Haste and Slow, would it be possible to separate initiative from speed like in later games? They'd still be really good spells if they only affected one or the other like in H5 but not nearly as overpowered. Maybe even split them into 2 sets of spells, one for initiative and one for speed?
____________
http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=46284&pagenumber=1
^ Part 2 of my proposal for Heroes 8 (Part 3 coming soon)

http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=44815
^ My novelization

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Hourglass
Hourglass


Famous Hero
posted July 17, 2020 01:41 AM

bloodsucker said:

After Intelligence and Resurrection (to teach and Alamar even starts with Scholar), Sorcery is the best magic specialty. It beats mages and monks specialists for sure but I would bet at least Shakti, Galthran and Cassiopeia will do more damage with a Magic Arrow week two then Styg...



Are we talking about some dream ultimate end game heroes or what? I know that we may have a different taste when it comes to maps, and maybe Sorcery speciality is good on lvl 40. But unfortunately, there's still 39 lvls before that to be achieved. Imo if heroes or their powers are being ranked, all states of the game should be included. In the early game, sorcery specialist are not making fights any easier. The bonus dmg they're providing is very minimal, and they're not giving your hero any kind of access to harder fights or better treasures.

Even on lvl 20 they're only giving +30% more damage, and only half of that is being provided by the speciality alone. Also, sorcery specialist really need good spells in order to make some atleast difference. Even something like meteor shower isn't dealing that much more damage, and lightning bolt isn't even worth talking about.

Maybe Sorcery specialist are laughtning on lvl 40, but it just takes so long for them to get there. It's like if one could get one million euros on his 110th birthday.

Just quick comparision to the end.: Ciele on lvl 1, fresh out of tavern is capable of dishing 420 dmg on day 1. So 210 dmg is being dealt from her speciality. It will likely take 2 weeks for sorcery specialist to deal that much more extra damage.

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Zaio-Baio
Zaio-Baio


Promising
Famous Hero
posted July 17, 2020 03:21 AM
Edited by Zaio-Baio at 03:28, 17 Jul 2020.

Sorcery specialists are bad is so many ways:

1. Only magic heroes are sorcery specialists, so you have to pick a magic hero to have this special. However, magic heroes have a poor chance to get offered good skills on lvl up and high chance to get offered crap skills. So prepare for possible disaster. Even if you reach late game chances are that you will have a lot worse skills than an enemy might hero (esp barbarian or beastmaster).
2. All sorcery specialists start with sorcery, yet sorcery is weak starting skill. Early game you want to cast mass slow/haste, blind, cure. Sorcery doesn't boost those spells in any way. Its a lot better to start with offense/armorer/logistics/tactics than with sorcery. In other words sorcery is a blank starting skill.
3. Sorcery works only when you cast damaging spells and early game your mana points are limited. Spending mana on damaging spells means that you will have less mana to spend on slow, haste, blind, cure. Offense, armorer and log specialists don't have this problem. They don't need to spend mana to make their special work.
4. Having a sorcery specialist as main hero tells your opponent your game plan. So prepare to see all possible counters to your high damaging spells - like expert interference, items that reduce your spell power, mass protection from earth, anti magic and so on.
5. Expert sorcery gives only +15% spell dmg and at lvl 20 your sorcery spec doubles it to 30%. However, you can use it only once per turn - when your hero casts a spell. Offense and armorer specialists use their special many times per turn - every time their units attack or get attacked.

Overall i think that the hota team should boost sorcery to 10-20-30%. That will provide a nice indirect boost to sorcery specialists too, since they will have +60% spell dmg at lvl 20.

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted July 17, 2020 06:41 AM
Edited by bloodsucker at 06:42, 17 Jul 2020.

Hourglass said:
Are we talking about some dream ultimate end game heroes or what? I know that we may have a different taste when it comes to maps, and maybe Sorcery speciality is good on lvl 40. But unfortunately, there's still 39 lvls before that to be achieved. Imo if heroes or their powers are being ranked, all states of the game should be included.

1. I don't know why you cite me but I was thinking about Jebus when I made the comment...
2. Overall, I consider skill specialties more viable then others, be it resources, creatures or spells... So, Sorcery is just a decent specialty when compared to Meteor Shower and Ice Bolt, not against heroes with godly like skill specialties like Logistics or Offense. Since only magic heroes have Sorcery specialty, to compare their efficiency with Armorer or Resistance specialties also includes to compare a magic hero with a might one and by now we all know how that ends...
____________
The only reason i argue with you people is because i don't want the bullsnow you all spout to be so easily spread to the impressionable without another sane voice challenging you.  -  Fred79

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