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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: Future Heroes extra features
Thread: Future Heroes extra features This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT»
JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted February 02, 2021 06:18 PM

Well, less is more when it comes to creature abilities (especially passive ones) on one creature. It's not more when it comes to, say, factions.

Look at the Unicorn development:
I: 20% Blind
II: 20% Blind
III: Both the same: 20% Blind, +20% Magic Resistance for adjacent creatures
IV:Blind chance
V: Same as III, except basic version hasn't Blind; Alternative Upgrade: Light spells on allied creature is also cast on that one.

Blind chance is a good ability. Magic Resistance on adjacent creatures is not. Why? You need to turtle for the effect to take place, then mass damage spell has reduced effect (or may not work on some creatures, depending on the mechanics). However, at 20% I'd not feel comfy, so it's like a weaker spell cast on the Unicorn already at start, that doesn't do much.
The light spell copy ability is better.

You need to cut the stuff that is irrelevant.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted February 04, 2021 08:44 AM

Jiriki9 said:
Quote:
Look, less is more.


I think that's taste again.

I will answer more soon, but not today, works keeping me busy...
Did someone flee from battle here?

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Jiriki9
Jiriki9


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
posted February 04, 2021 05:01 PM

If it comes so, I'd certainly go for a capitulation!

Actually, work is a ....... bit much these days and takes most of my brain capacity, and my son takes most of the rest (in a better way, but it's still not exactly relaxing...)

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted February 04, 2021 06:23 PM

I can understand that.

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted February 05, 2021 07:21 AM

I could see stack experience being a thing, as long as it was limited, so it only raises, say, attack/defence and morale.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted February 05, 2021 07:43 AM

That's what Heroes are for.

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted February 05, 2021 10:17 AM

Meh, you transfer a bunch of units from your main hero to a secondary, and they become pathetic.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted February 05, 2021 11:03 AM

HEROES of Might and Magic. Not CREATURES of Might and Magic.

The creatures are what they are. That's why there are upgrades, alternative upgrades and even more than one upgrade. The game revolves around heroes.

Suppose, creatures could indeed get something like battle XP and gain Attack, Defense and Morale - how would you say should that work, mechanically?

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted February 05, 2021 11:58 AM

It's a strategy game, not an RPG.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted February 05, 2021 01:31 PM

It's a mix.
Again - how would you imagine it to work?

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted February 05, 2021 06:44 PM

JollyJoker said:
It's a mix.
Again - how would you imagine it to work?
A more limited version of what we saw in H3:WoG.

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Jiriki9
Jiriki9


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
posted February 05, 2021 07:54 PM

Quote:
You need to cut the stuff that is irrelevant.


I can understand the notion but I believe it is taste because I, personally, like games with a lot of different abilities. (f.e. I am a big fan of ffgs living card games, if that means sth to you)

Quote:
So what you mean is that it wouldn't be a matter of course anymore to reinforce your Hero(es) with your freshly grown creatures. Yes, but that's exactly the problem. We are back at non-aligning goals; on one hand you want to maximize creature production - but the other it might pay if you don't? Makes no sense to me.
If you have in mind that you can equip more than one heroes then - yes, but you can do that with stack limits/command points as well.


Why does that not makes sense to you. That should, imo, be the aim of strategical and tactical games. Having to make tactical decisions for certain situations and - for a modern game - several ways to achieve this. One player might prefer a mass army of low-xp units - and they might even be able to build their hero skills accordingly.

Quote:
Yes, you can make that happen in a lot less complicated way.

Maybe, but it would be a nice side-effect.

Quote:
It doesn't matter whether you call a building a "training center" or a "creature upgrade", the effect is the same - you can recruit different versions of a creature, the basic one and one or more upgrades.

With creature XP, you could merge stacks of "different" units, as described before.

Quote:
Upgrades have to offer something more than just better stats, otherwise they are redundant.

agreed. a lot of H3-upgrades felt very out-of-place and I actually think that the H2-way of not doing upgrades 1-for-each was pretty interesting.

Quote:
The difference between active and passive abilities hasn't to do with boring/interesting. The more passive stuff is on a creature
a)the better the creatures are already when they enter battle. (This is bad because it makes active abilities less important - if your creatures already have passive skills that reduce damage, a further damage reducing spell isprobably redundant; it also makes differences between creatures seem smaller.
b) the more complex the interactions between abilities become (making bugs difficult to spot, although the probability for bugs being there is high) and the more difficult it gets for the players to actually grasp what is happening and what effect active abilities will have, once cast. If there are too many (status) effects on creatures it gets confusing and either things take much longer, or players don't really know what's going on.

on a) I am not sure I agree on that. I think especially the typical damage reduction can make very nice and fine nuances between creatures. Two factions might have a very similar tank unit, but if one is resistant to fire and darkness damage, and the other immune to water damage, this will alter how we have to counter them. Of course for this to be relevant, units have to be able to deal these damage types. A classical example could be you being able to choose a stack of bowmen`s arrows (either by a switching ability or as active abilities for the certain damage types OR as a tactical decision before battle, f.e. with alternate upgrades) - you'll use burning arrows especially against dryads, dendroids/treants and other plant-based units (but also against wooden war machines), but you will have to adapt when facing heavily armored foes, and so on. (Mind you, it's just an example and not that thought out.)
On b): I know the problem you're speaking of but I (personally again) like a certain complexity. Having more and more complex abilites was one of the main benefits that H5 had before H3, to me. (Both on Creature AND Hero abilities.)
What's an active ability for you, btw.? Because for me it is an ability, that I, the player must ACTIVELY trigger with a button. If the game triggers it, it is passive (meaning that the very vast majority of creature abilities (and all hero skills) in H3, for example, are passive). By your example, I get the feeling that may not be your exact distinction of the two. So this sub-discussion may also root in different understandings of the phrase.

Summarised:
I think that unit xp COULD be worth a try.
BUT, as Matt mentions WoG ... a LOT of tuning down should be done from there! That game added too much stuff even for me.

BTW: HoMM definitely is a Mix of Strategy and RPG, but has also often shifted more into one direction or the other. Balancing out both aspects is probably one of the harder things when making such a game...

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted February 05, 2021 08:58 PM
Edited by JollyJoker at 21:09, 05 Feb 2021.

I'm going to start with the obvious, that the game is a mix of strategy game, RPG AND tactical game.
That's three different parts and each one is important - you need to grasp the battlefield realities as well and be apt, tactically.

So where does the game come from? It comes from a hero fielding creatures that don't "change", some having "passive" abilities (like a 20% chance to blind a hit stack, no matter the numbers involved), but can be "improved" PASSIVELY by the hero, for one with hero stats, for another with artifacts, and ACTIVELY, also by the hero, by casting spells, one each turn; the active HERO abilities can also do more than that, like damage opposing creatures or put negative passives onto them.

That is the basic game.

The successors added creature upgrades, which essentially serves to lengthen the suspense curve and add decision points - you simply have more options. Secondary skills are doing the same - you have to make a decision when you level up (primary skill level up is random, no decision involved). The secondary skill system in the first game is MOSTLY based on avoiding the useless skills - that is, picking wisely in order to avoid facing a completely random choice. The way it is in 2 and 3, secondary skills are more or less redundant, because it's clear what is a god build and what not (which skills are good and which are crap).

What is the gain H5? In H5 the gain is, that there are infinitely more useful builds and that you have to make REAL decisions, since you have options and have to pick (you can only pick 3 perks out of a lot more for each skill, and there are more than 3 useful). Summoning doesn't really have the perks, though, but that could easily be rectified.

Now, creature XP. The way this is presented, the "option" now is to decide whether to add creatures and lose abilities or to go for abilities - but in practise it amounts to a decision of what is a desirable XP upgrade, get there, and increase stack size only so much that you don't lose that. It's not giving options, it's an optimizing process.

The upgrade "process" is automatic - you cannot influence the upgrade ladder of your creatures (with creature XP). It's not making the game any better to decide whether you want a certain creature skill or more creatures. What makes the game interesting, tactically, is the combination of what creatures you have in combination with the skills of your hero to tweak them - to act with the aim to either hinder the opposition to the max or to help your troops to the max. The STRATEGY part in the game isn't to decide which XP upgrade you want, it's making the plan what you need to claim in which order to maximize your gains: mines, towns, artifacts, building upgrades or new dwellings or special bildings - or buy troops.

What you do NOT want is a ton of "XP-upgrade" creature skills that diminish the role of the "hero action".

In short, creature XP is completely redundant. Worse, it diminishes the role of the hero and THEIR active abilities (Spells, "War Cries").

A much more interesting question than "creature XP" would be the question whether it's a good idea to give might heroes 1 creature slot more and let magic heroes act twice (like in Heroes Online).
Or whether to allow more than hero per army...

Not that I want to tout that - it's just that creature XP isn't going to help for this game.

If you want more creature VARIETY, you simply need a better mix of "upgrade strategies". In the planning phase of H7 I made a suggestion of how to do this and made an example based on the Tower/Academy.

Here it is:

Level 1: Gremlin
Level 2: Gargoyle; Upgrade: Much Better Gargoyle Alternative Build: Wild Boar
Level 3; (racial)* Iron Golem
Level 4: Mage; Upgrade: Much Better Mage; Alternative Upgrade: Much Better Different Mage
Level 5 (racial)*: Gold Golem Alternative Build: Djinn
Level 6: Rakshasa; 1. Upgrade: Better Rakshasa; 2. Upgrade: Way Better Rakshasa
Level 7: Giant; Upgrade: Titan
Level 8: (racial)* Dragon Golem

*"racial" means, that vertical upgrades are possible, the way it was in H5 with Haven.

Note that the idea is having less than 8 army slots here. Note also that this could look completely different.

I edit this to add, that the 8-level version was obviously the max. A 7 level version would work the same way, having one level and one army slot less.

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted February 05, 2021 10:23 PM

Meh, I don't agree. Creature XP can be made to work without hurting the role of heroes. Restricting it the attack/defence boosts does crap about spells, because spells (other than those which affect the attack/defence stats) wouldn't even be affected by that. It wouldn't hurt upgrades either, since any good upgrade would add at least one new ability. As for might heroes, that's broken anyway, so that's a null argument too.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted February 05, 2021 11:43 PM

Why would you need Heroes at all then? If attack and defense would be xp-upgradable creature stats, this would leave what? One immune-against-everything spellcaster hero "leading" the army?

Whatfor? Just give (some) creatures active abilities, so that some creatures could act like heroes. And since we are at it - why have STACKS of creatures anyway?

Come to think of it - play AoW3. Has it all.

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted February 06, 2021 12:56 AM

If it's all about the heroes, why have so many different types of creatures? You only need a tank, a speedster and an archer, let the hero differentiate them.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted February 06, 2021 01:57 AM

3/4 of creatures are worthless in Heroes, low levels or unupgraded are used as cannon fodder only during the first 5 days or so then we forget about them, look at any competitive game.
Extra abilities would only enforce and validate the high number of creatures available, otherwise why design so many.

I am all for creatures experience, within many levels and each level bringing some useful ability, be it for economy, map adventure exploration or in battle, why not. Low levels could guard mines and improve income with numbers/experience levels, others could spot and reveal your opponent strategy, skills and army, some could be a bonus to your mana, some could be hired for speeding magic research with each experience level opening access to higher spells, make a game for 2021, not for 1999. Otherwise you finish with second week and later battles only depending on HP and attack/defense, how is that rich and creative.

But of course, it depends on the tandem hero/creatures, how heroes levels are designed and how much their progress influence the creatures strength and impact on the game. If the hero gives abilities to his troops, then it makes no sense to have creatures experience and extra anything.

And also, ship a powerful and easy to use editor/modding platform with the game, like Mod Buddy for Civilization or the Creation Kit for Skyrim, that way every individual from the community will have for his money.

This point is the most important, successfully teasing their creative fiber is what keeps the fans enthusiasts and addicted.
____________
Era II mods and utilities

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted February 06, 2021 09:26 AM

SP and MP are completely different things. I've played a lot of AoW3 PBEM games. The game has a lovely XP system with units getting XP for what they actually do on the battlefield, limited by the POTENTIAL XP of each enemy unit - it didn't take long for people to find ways to lengthen battles in order to leech a maximum of XP out of each battle, so that you had two-digit level heroes before the game reached turn 10.

The interesting thing is that the developer changed their XP system for their follow-up, allocating an XP value to every unit and let all units of the winning side share the combined XP value of the loser equally, with dead unit's share of the winning side actually being forfeited.

However, that didn't change anything, because now it was obviously a matter of winning battles with as few units as possible. Which is, if I'm not wrong, the right thing to do with WOG-like creature XPs in which creatures obtain important abilities via XP.
It always amounts to the question who can abuse the game most effectively. I don't mean that in a negative way, I just mean it that way, that a game is rarely played in the way it is supposed to.

Regular games have to work first and foremostly SP, because everyone can play SP anytime they want. Ideally, they should work for both SP and MP (and the inbetween, PBEM).

It should be clear that a successful new HoMM game had to be a completely different game than H1-H7 - still managing to be a Heroes game, though. Creature XP isn't a Heroes feature, just as a new Disciples game wouldn't have stack-based combat.

XP is basically a resource and one that is used to develop the hero. That is the given thing. It doesn't make sense to develop creatures independently from Heroes XP with XP as well.
If you want to be able to improve creatures independently from hero and originating town, you could have one or more artefact slots in every army stack (which might be a hero skill/ability) - not that this is a new thing (H5 Academy, I look at you).

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted February 06, 2021 06:50 PM

Quote:
It should be clear that a successful new HoMM game had to be a completely different game than H1-H7 - still managing to be a Heroes game, though. Creature XP isn't a Heroes feature, just as a new Disciples game wouldn't have stack-based combat.
Heroes 4, 6 and 7 all tried to be 'completely different', and that was why they crashed and burned.

Quote:
XP is basically a resource and one that is used to develop the hero. That is the given thing. It doesn't make sense to develop creatures independently from Heroes XP with XP as well.
Please stop treating your opinion as fact, it's getting annoying.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted February 06, 2021 07:53 PM

Annoying is, that you get your basic facts wrong. Heroes 4 didn't crash and burn and Heroes 7 did the exact opposite than trying to be completely different.

Apart from that, you can have your opinion, but you should be able to back it. You didn't even try.

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