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Gandalf196
Disgraceful
Supreme Hero
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posted February 12, 2021 10:49 PM |
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God does not play dice with the Universe...
...or so Einstein thought
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artu
Promising
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posted February 13, 2021 12:21 AM |
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Edited by artu at 00:21, 13 Feb 2021.
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That is actually a metaphor for his objection to Heisenberg’s uncertainty principle (which turned out wrong, btw). Einstein believed in a deterministic universe, nothing was left to chance. His god was the god of Spinoza, a pantheistic notion that god doesnt act in the universe but rather it is the order of the universe itself. (Needless to say, all notions of free will, good and bad, reward and punishment are meaningless in this perspective.) God does not roll dice translates as “nothing in nature is uncertain, physical laws are measurable and if we cant, it is our shortcoming”
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artu
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posted February 13, 2021 01:27 PM |
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If nature is non-deterministic, at least to a degree, then you can talk about choice, and when there is choice, only then responsibility becomes a meaningful concept. I think it is one of the oldest and most universal problems of philosophy since Ancient Greece, trilemma of Epicurus and so on... during the ages of religions, theologians discussed it as a conflict between free will versus fate, God’s omniscience, etc. 19th century, people discussed it through “social infrastructure and its effects.” Historical and social background was the backbone of the new determinism. Today, you have neuroscience dealing with the same questions, to what degree do we decide things, do we really decide at all in the true sense of the word? So, yes, if universe is non deterministic and conscious choice is a possibility, you can attach normative values to behaviour, otherwise, it’s like calling a lion evil for eating a zebra.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Drakon-Deus
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Qapla'
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posted February 13, 2021 02:10 PM |
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Beliefs like pantheism or deism seem to be forgotten today when talking about God, but I always thought they're pretty interesting to consider.
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artu
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posted February 13, 2021 02:16 PM |
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They are not forgotten, lately, they are more popular than traditional religions actually, fewer people believe in the gods attached to mythological stories.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted February 13, 2021 02:23 PM |
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Maybe, but I've never seen any discussions on them whenever I looked for discussions on God online. Just neverending atheism vs Christianity debates.
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artu
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posted February 13, 2021 03:28 PM |
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I dont think it’s binary either but in hardcore determinism choice becomes an illusion, doesnt matter how realistic the illusion is, it indicates your actions are pre-determined. Choice means you can change the outcome, feeling like you choose, doesnt meant you actually do.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Gandalf196
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posted February 13, 2021 03:44 PM |
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JollyJoker
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posted February 13, 2021 04:10 PM |
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The question whether the futire us determined or not, IS binary: The answer is a simple yes or no. If yes, there is no "free will" (or actually free decision); if not, there is UNCERTAINTY at least.
What does a no for free will mean? Even if there is a high probability for all decisions of a specific person, uncertainty is still there. There are a lot of random factors that may influence a decision - so even IF a human's decision was 100% determined, if all relevant factors right before the decision were known, the factors themselves are "random" and not determined.
This is the difference between "having free will" and "being not fully predictable".
In my opinion, "free will" isn't interesting - it's something that makes no sense because it's the wrong title for this. No one is ever free in their decisions or in their will, just POTENTIALLY free (or not). The question seems to be quite similar to the "only when things are observed they "decide" their state". Only when a human consciously thinks about having a choice, "free will" comes into play. Think about Russian Roulette. Think about decising consciously against what you do usually.
The question isn't whether we have free will or not. The question is whether everything is determined or not. If it is not (and it does't look that way) we HAVE free will. IF WE WANT TO.
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Djolaf
Hired Hero
mechanized madness
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posted February 13, 2021 11:22 PM |
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I wouldn't say we have free will, because we are driven by our biology. It's not as simple as in other animals, so we can't grasp it, but it's there. If someone could erase my memory of today and replay this same exact day again, I'm fairly certain that I would make the same exact choices. There's nothing to make me change my mind and my mind is based off of my genetics and my previous experiences. There could be some kind of a random factor that happens differently every time, but we can't know that. It may seem random, but it might just be non-observable.
I believe this is good because we can be forgiving of other people, knowing they don't have that much control over what they do and that if we could be more understanding towards them and hoping that they could get this as well.
And the universe...I have no idea.
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JollyJoker
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posted February 14, 2021 09:02 AM |
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Knowing what you believe to know (about not having free will), you COULD change things, though. You might ask yourself, "Hey, am I maybe living in some time loop and the exact same day than yesterday is playing out? Okay, let's do something different, then, just for the heck of it: I'm not going to have breakfast."
Free will.
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artu
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posted February 14, 2021 03:17 PM |
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Edited by artu at 15:18, 14 Feb 2021.
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Eheh, that’s the easy way out JJ. The real question is, is there some subconscious dynamic in your brain that “decides” before you are having the impresssion of deciding, even for the heck of it. Deterministic doesnt necessarily mean deliberate. But I’ll agree with you just for the heck of it! 
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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JollyJoker
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posted February 14, 2021 04:22 PM |
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artu said:
The real question is, is there some subconscious dynamic in your brain that “decides” before you are having the impresssion of deciding, even for the heck of it.
That's not the real question, because it's on the same level as religion. There is no reason whatsoever, no evidence, no nothing to assume some "subconschious dynamic" that decides.
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artu
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posted February 14, 2021 04:29 PM |
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No, in fact, as I mentioned the other day, brain scans show that miliseconds before you decide something, it’s already processed.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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JollyJoker
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posted February 14, 2021 04:49 PM |
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Unless you are religious fanatic I AM my brain, or, differently phrased, I'm not just my conscious thoughts, but a lot more than that. I need access to my memory and the cores of my cpu must process all data, including sensory data, everything, and finally, when that's finished and a result is reached, that result has to be formulated and put into conscious thought.
Same way that sometimes you already act before the command to do so actually reaches conscious thought. That's called reflexes.
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artu
Promising
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posted February 14, 2021 05:23 PM |
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Edited by artu at 17:24, 14 Feb 2021.
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You are your brain but you are not necessarily your will, your will may be an illusion caused by your biochemistry, which is a serious scientific debate among related scholars. Just check out Sam Harris videos about the subject on Youtube, he is not just a regular participant of atheist debates but also a neuroscientist and he is quite articulate about this point of view, he even has a book named free will, explaining it doesnt exist. As I said in the beginning, to what degree we actually decide things or if we really decide at all has been an ages old question since Ancient Greece and today it is on the table on a neurological level, which is a positive science, not religion.
A general summary.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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JollyJoker
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posted February 14, 2021 06:09 PM |
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I think, most of this is blown-up hogwash - you have to start and fuel discussion, if you want to be funded and find attention.
Nothing is certain, everything is debated and doubtful - and nothing is well-defined or even defined at all, which is what I have said the whole time. People mean different things when they talk about free will.
And seriously, if you are asked to make a binary decision anytime you like within the next seconds, you are busy with that decision the whole time. It's a crappy experiment.
It's like the still coursing idea that the reason for depression is a lack of serotonine, just because two Russians found low serotonine levels at depressive people over 50 years ago. It's clear it's NOT that, but people aren't just now following other paths.
In any way I'm not prepared to debate about this - there is no foundation whatsoever that would make it more than speculation.
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Baronus
Legendary Hero
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posted February 14, 2021 07:08 PM |
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Dice is for us because we dont know how result will be! God knows all before all was created! For us its probability for God its always certainty.
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JollyJoker
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posted February 14, 2021 07:31 PM |
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