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| Thread: Euthyphro dilemma |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Gandalf196
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posted February 15, 2021 05:10 PM |
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Euthyphro dilemma
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NoobX
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Now, this is a paradox...
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posted February 15, 2021 05:40 PM |
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Pffft, beginner level problems.
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Door knob resembles anus tap.
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Baronus
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posted February 15, 2021 10:04 PM |
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Genesis
1:31
And God looked upon all that He had made, and indeed, it was very good.
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So is good/right because God made it! All Gods things are good!
Question complete!
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Gandalf196
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posted February 15, 2021 10:28 PM |
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JollyJoker
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posted February 15, 2021 10:57 PM |
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The Greeks had a different understanding of gods than later Christians. For Christians, God is absolute and the reason of all existance. Therefore "good" and "evil", right and wrong is defined by Him. "Sin" is just a short word for disobeying His commands.
So if you believe in that god, then, yes, things are good and morally right because he says so - how could it be different?
If you don't - well, then it's different.
Note, that if you turn it the other way round, you postulate an absolute good (and evil) which is doubtful to exist, to say the least.
It's all pretty relative.
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Lith-Maethor
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posted February 15, 2021 11:01 PM |
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Ahem...
JollyJoker said:
The Greeks had a different understanding of gods than later Christians.
We built our gods in our image.
...why do you think they were so wonderfully flawed and petty?
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JollyJoker
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posted February 16, 2021 08:08 AM |
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Ok.
The Greeks and the ancient Jews had a different understanding of gods than the later Christians.
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Baronus
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posted February 16, 2021 11:44 AM |
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Only One God Creator must be always omnipotent and all was created by Him! So only good is He! Its hard logic non ,cultural tradition'. But only small number of people can understand it. 99,9% dont think about it.
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Lith-Maethor
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posted February 16, 2021 11:55 AM |
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Oof...
I wouldn't bring omnipotence into this, then you run into the other ancient argument, the problem of evil.
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NoobX
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Now, this is a paradox...
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posted February 16, 2021 12:15 PM |
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Don't try it, Lith, you're dealing with Thomas Aquinas reborn here 
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Lith-Maethor
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posted February 16, 2021 12:33 PM |
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Heh...
Oh I am not getting into the argument. I doubt either side will bring anything I've never seen before a hundred times.
Just here to warn about the obvious traps, that's all.
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 16, 2021 12:41 PM |
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Edited by artu at 14:38, 16 Feb 2021.
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@Noobx
Not really, those were at least smart men of their time.
@JJ
Actually, Sokrates’ objection in that dialogue is quite witty and also applies to the Christian god, any god since the logic used is universal: If god commands something because that is good, he cant command bad that is, it means he is restricted by a predefined notion of good in his actions, it means that there is an existing notion of good and bad without him and this predetermine his actions (assuming gods cant act bad), he just follows the rules like an officer. If it is the other way around, if something is good because god commands it, then good is just another word for obedient. The second line of thought, gave way to Milton’s famous Paradise Lost where the devil rebels and says Hell’s freedom is worth it rather than being a slave in Heaven and so on. So historically, this was a really crucial point in ethics.
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JollyJoker
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posted February 16, 2021 01:42 PM |
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Many philosophical problems of the past are just semantical. In this case it's about creating a philosophical/semantical problem for the believers. The ACTUAL problem here is the definition of the god being and the absolute, respectively.
We have the problem that it is already questionable whether there can be an absolute thing, but if we ASSUME there is one, we can certainly deduct, that there can be not another absolute thing, like "ethics". Instead, those "ethics" must be founded on that one absolute thing which/who DEFINES everything due to being absolute.
From this follows, that "obedience in god's commands" EQUALS "good" (and it doesn't matter whether this is "good" in any ethics humans may come up with.
If you believe in this one God and his abosnowe nature then you have to bite the bullet and accept that "good" is the same as obeying his commands.
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 16, 2021 05:09 PM |
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Edited by artu at 17:09, 16 Feb 2021.
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Well, most of history, before deism, gods were quite anthropomorphic, they were like immortal kings, lords. Had there been a god, I dont think normative terms such as good or bad would apply to it. So I’d say the absolute wouldnt define good, there would be no good or bad, just like there is no good or bad in nature.
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JollyJoker
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posted February 16, 2021 06:09 PM |
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That's why I said the old Greeks (and the old Jews) had a different understanding of the gods - they were more like very powerful humans, not gods, but overlords, and also there was more than one.
So the answer THEN was different (indeed a dilemma, althought just for the religious fanatic) than with the later Christians.
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Ghost
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Therefore I am
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posted February 16, 2021 06:34 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
Ok.
The Greeks and the ancient Jews had a different understanding of gods than the later Christians.
Whose idea? People developed the god. How? Did you runty think something monster and you told your parents or told a lie your friends. You're not only but also many children. But did you think about the highest being? Sorry you got your religion education. They had had time to tell us how the god is. Religion is a culture theirs also theism or breeding or civilized book. Example of our sami people live in lapland in north Finland, their religion is new age something from ancient religion, because Luther changed their mind. The same matter Luther had different understanding that the Bible is right. "Ancient jews" were homeless, jehovah, etc with civilized book. They're from Adam and eve.
Other! Good and evil is a ancient question. The best answer is what's ideal, so the god is always goodness and he hates evil, we want be the same. Freedom means now what you are, you've morals, because what you've learned civilized and 18 aged. You can call a neutral, then good is good in service and evils drive their benefit. We can't know why? Genetic or what? But our choice for life. Do religion helps people changes better life. It's sick, but if ufo is watching our religious people own hope. I think your believe gets your own judge. Some is the god. Judge? After life, etc most people sleep eternally.
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Celfious
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From earth
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posted February 16, 2021 06:59 PM |
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Only the sith
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JollyJoker
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posted February 16, 2021 07:59 PM |
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Gandalf196
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posted February 16, 2021 08:52 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
What?
Deal in...
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Baronus
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posted February 16, 2021 10:32 PM |
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Edited by Baronus at 22:38, 16 Feb 2021.
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Baronus
Yes Summa Teologiae always modern always fresh!
Evil is no problem for omnipotence because its not Gods atributt.
So we must have other free will persons not omnipotented and without Gods perfection.
Logically these are creatures. God dont want destroy them because its free will contradiction.
In God theres no any contradictions His rules! But these evil events could not change Gods plans!
Its only destruction these creatures. Which we named hell.
Pagan cultes cant be rated by logic because has a lot of human fantasies. Sometimes we have there very good conceptions eg. only one God especially primitve tribes buts thats all. Usually ,Gods as people' formula.
Absolutly the best is old Persian religion Ahura Masda. Only one God. And angels devils etc. Persian theology is highest pagan level.
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