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| Thread: Would level 7 Creature Specialists be OP? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · «PREV |
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Phoenix4ever
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posted June 06, 2022 05:29 PM |
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You guys forgot pikeman specialty, we don't have that either.
We don't really have a nix specialist either, but Tark is pretty damn OP anyway.
Hourglass I thought we agreed no more static creature specialties. That goes for ALL planeswalkers. 
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Hourglass
Supreme Hero
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posted June 06, 2022 05:51 PM |
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Phoenix4ever said:
Hourglass I thought we agreed no more static creature specialties. That goes for ALL planeswalkers.
I do agree with you, I'm just trying to imagine how it would realistically look like in the game, like thinking how NWC would have done it.
And oh yeah Pikeman too! It would be the best starting hero in SoD for Castle. It's possible it could also displace Valeska in Hota, too. Again, depends from the secondary skills, however I think the most suitable ones are already given out for other Knights, so this guy would get something like Resistance, Ballistics, Pathfinding or something like that.
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Phoenix4ever
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posted June 06, 2022 06:54 PM |
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Regarding a potential gremlin specialist, HotA decreased Dungeon heroes troglodytes by 10 per stack, the same could be done with Tower, to not make starting gremlins too crazy.
Not sure if 3 stacks of pikemen, centaurs or pixies would be crazy.
A centaur specialist would be really good I think.
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NimoStar
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posted June 08, 2022 04:37 PM |
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Quote:
Behemoth and hydra: Quite alright.
Green Dragon, red Dragon, giant, devil, firebird and sea serpent: Might be okay.
Angel and bone dragon: Questionable.
I quite agree, as I hadn't thought about Angels also having griffin conservatories which in some default maps are quite common.
* * *
On the other hand I don't see why Centaur specialists would be so "good". Centaurs are fast and get good stats, but that is it. They aren't ranged like Gremlins, and they get low numbers per hero. They have no special abilities.
More clearly, however, there is no way to get additional centaurs other than centaur dwellings and weekly heroes (so normal means). Centaur specialty would decrease in utility sharply as the game advances and you get other creatures with better stats, abilities and more weekly HP. Centaurs also being melee and two hex wide, would be quite easy to destroy and hard to protect (also no reward for protection other than not losing centaurs who can only fight anyways).
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Phoenix4ever
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posted June 08, 2022 05:31 PM |
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Personally I consider centaurs to be the best level 1 unit. They are fast, tanky and does quite a bit of damage.
There is also week of the Centaur.
https://heroes.thelazy.net/index.php/Growth
There is also week of the Gremlin.
In HotA there is also week of the Sprite. (Upgraded!)
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NimoStar
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posted June 08, 2022 05:38 PM |
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What I mean is, no other Level 1 specialty other than Gathran was OP in the normal game. And Gathrean as I said is de to extra skeleton sources.
I don't think Centaur specialty would be special. Plus Centaur +1 speed has less impact than with slow units (such as Troglodytes) since +1 is a greater % the lower the base number is.
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Phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
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posted June 08, 2022 07:33 PM |
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Yeah maybe centaurs would be fine.
You also think gremlins would be fine?
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NimoStar
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posted June 08, 2022 07:52 PM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 20:17, 08 Jun 2022.
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Problem with Gremlins, as you said, is that each Tower hero starts with 30–40 gremlins.
In contrast Rampart heroes only start with 12-24 centaurs, that's less than half on average.
Gremlin starting troops would have to be lowered but that has wider implications for Tower early game.
I do think Tower was overbuffed in HotA with so many building discounts, and building prerequisites removed (probably just because of "JC" fast game balance), also more starting gargoyles and golems...
(Tower was never a weak town late game, it has some of the strongest creature lineups, artifacts merchants and most spells, the most shooters of any town, and probably the best level 7 creature)
while Rampart on the other hand was nerfed (eg less starting elves, and the change of resistance and resistance specialist, which stacks with dwarves and unicorns and works vs spellcasting neutral creatures, to iNtErFeReNcE, which is useless in PvE and doesn't synergyze with anything in the town)
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Phoenix4ever
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posted June 08, 2022 08:26 PM |
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HotA lowered troglodyte stacks from 30-40 to 20-30, so the same could be done with gremlins.
Yes I am familiar with all the Tower buffs in HotA and I think most/all of them were unnecessary. Tower is an expensive, but very strong town.
I changed all of the Tower buffs back to how they were in SoD, except the build order, HotA seems to overwrite mine annoyingly.
I also disagree with the elf stack nerf, they are also like in SoD in my game.
And yeah we share the same view about Resistance and Interference.
Resistance = 
Interference = 
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NimoStar
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posted June 08, 2022 08:54 PM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 21:00, 08 Jun 2022.
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We are in agreement about most things, however
Quote:
HotA lowered troglodyte stacks from 30-40 to 20-30, so the same could be done with gremlins.
Thinkl about the following: The troglodyte stuff was likely just because they changed the hero % o stacks so that there is always 100% for all three stacks to spawn.
S, three stacjs of 30-40 troglodytes for specialist were too much.
But is this not attacking the wrong part of the equation?
Essentially you are punishing the whole Dungeon just because of one hero.
This nerfs their whole early game even if they don't choose the level 1 specialist.
Same would be the case for Tower.
My solution would be to make lvl1 specialist start with normal stacks, or two level 1 stacks at most.
After all, Bron doesn't start with 4 stacks of basilisks...
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phoenix4ever
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posted June 08, 2022 09:19 PM |
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Actually sounds like we pretty much agree 100% again, cause I did'nt lower all Dungeon heroes trogs, only Shakti's.
In HotA he would have started with an average number of 105 trogs! (Which could also have been converted to skeletons.) So that number was clearly way too much.
Maybe a potential gremlin specialist, should also (only) have lower numbers, either 3 stacks of 20-30 (75 in average) or maybe just 2 stacks of 30-40. (70 in average.)
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Hourglass
Supreme Hero
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posted June 08, 2022 09:26 PM |
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The reason why Centaur specialist would be such a great hero, is pretty much why every other lvl 1 specialist is/was so dominating. Especially this case was in SOD, where you couldn't guarantee stacks other than the first one (usually lvl 1's).
It's just that the fighting mechanics do reward the player, if he has access to a stack that can deal decisive blows. (For example no retalition from the enemy -> zero/few loses) In the early game it's better to have one big stack rather than couple of mediocre-sized. All this leads into situation where most of the low-level creture specialist get head start comparing to other heroes, since they can clear harder fights with better rewards early on. Snowball keeps going, and such early advantage may very well lead into the map being divided "unevenly" for the so called lategame.
So in short:
OP = not in the sense how I understand it, but most likely very strong hero.
Game changer = most definetly yes.
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phoenix4ever
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posted June 08, 2022 10:16 PM |
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I understand what you mean Hourglass.
In that case you could say (almost) all level 1 specialists are OP/game changers, but maybe especially Galthran, a potential centaur and gremlin specialist...
If Factory ever gets released, I wonder if the Halfling specialist will be playable. If that's the case, then a gremlin specialist should also be legit.
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NimoStar
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posted June 08, 2022 10:30 PM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 22:41, 08 Jun 2022.
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Hourglass said:
The reason why Centaur specialist would be such a great hero, is pretty much why every other lvl 1 specialist is/was so dominating. Especially this case was in SOD, where you couldn't guarantee stacks other than the first one (usually lvl 1's).
It's just that the fighting mechanics do reward the player, if he has access to a stack that can deal decisive blows. (For example no retalition from the enemy -> zero/few loses) In the early game it's better to have one big stack rather than couple of mediocre-sized. All this leads into situation where most of the low-level creture specialist get head start comparing to other heroes, since they can clear harder fights with better rewards early on. Snowball keeps going, and such early advantage may very well lead into the map being divided "unevenly" for the so called lategame.
So in short:
OP = not in the sense how I understand it, but most likely very strong hero.
Game changer = most definetly yes.
I did say that the problem was just with starting stacks and that would be essentially the only thing I would chnge in level 1 specialists.
This isn't a thing of the specialty ability itself but only starting stacks, which is programmed separately.
(And I think they wre less dominant in SoD than HotA, because at least according to thelazy, they only had the same % in SoD of getting further stacks as regular heroes had of getting level 2 and 3. In HotA they always have 100% of three full 1st level stacks. That is why they are ""dominating"")
A hero that starts with three 30-40 gremlin stacks (which can be upgraded into average over 100 Master Gremlin single stack, not counting town starting creatures and growth) will probably always be OP in early game regardless if its specialty is Eagle Eye.
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Hourglass
Supreme Hero
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posted June 08, 2022 11:22 PM |
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NimoStar said:
This isn't a thing of the specialty ability itself but only starting stacks, which is programmed separately.
(And I think they wre less dominant in SoD than HotA, because at least according to thelazy, they only had the same % in SoD of getting further stacks as regular heroes had of getting level 2 and 3. In HotA they always have 100% of three full 1st level stacks. That is why they are ""dominating""
In SoD they're strong because you can have consistency, since the first stack is always guaranteed on every hero. HotA makes few more creature specialist viable due the change of the starting armies. For example, Wystan is terrible starting hero in SOD, but you can make him work in HotA.
Basically the starting army is the specialty, the bonus stats really don't help except speed. Imo it was wise call from NWC to have different starting armies, since in the long run it gives more options.
Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing some specialist starting troops being altered. Not necessary because of "balance" but in order to keep some other heroes being somehow more viable.
NimoStar said:
A hero that starts with three 30-40 gremlin stacks (which can be upgraded into average over 100 Master Gremlin single stack, not counting town starting creatures and growth) will probably always be OP in early game regardless if its specialty is Eagle Eye.
Not just specialty of EE, but we can combine Learning with it too, and he is still the best starting hero in Tower.
Geez, it sure is difficult to use this page with phone only. 
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NimoStar
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posted June 09, 2022 10:52 AM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 11:28, 09 Jun 2022.
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Quote:
In SoD they're strong because you can have consistency, since the first stack is always guaranteed on every hero. HotA makes few more creature specialist viable due the change of the starting armies. For example, Wystan is terrible starting hero in SOD, but you can make him work in HotA.
Basically the starting army is the specialty, the bonus stats really don't help except speed. Imo it was wise call from NWC to have different starting armies, since in the long run it gives more options.
Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing some specialist starting troops being altered. Not necessary because of "balance" but in order to keep some other heroes being somehow more viable.
I don't think the other stats are useless, doubling base attack and def at level 20 isn't really bad, and you will usually have around this level by the time of a final combat in a medium to large map.
For the average level 1 unit, this would be as if you had an extra Sword of Judgement.
About the starting armies I don't know what's really important about guaranteed first stack only? Since other heroes will also come with the same number of 1st level troops if no other stacks are present. It is changing the 100% level troops 2 and 3 for level 1 what makes their army really big, otherwise in average it is two stacks and not three.
IMO this could easily be fixed by a revision of starting armies, since for example level 2 specialist only replaces one of the other two armies.
Level one specialist should have two stacks of level 1 creatures, the one replacing level 2 being less creatures than main stack, and still the level 3 creature untouched. This is an example but I think it works and there would be no problem then.
Gremlin specialist would then be:
30-40 gremlins, normal
10-20 gremlins, replacing 5-7 gargoyles
4-5 stone golems, normal (in HotA, 2-3 in SoD)
This makes the starting army strenght roughly equal to default hero, and then you have to make the specialty shine. +1 speed for gremlins is significant. Even in master gremlins it lets them shoot before, whcih could be the difference between enemy reaching them or not. MG are the most important early game creature so this is already a good bonus without a huge starting "gremlin horde".
Actually, the chance to strike before the opponent's (slower) creatures is a significant bonus in H3 to all creatures, not just ranged or Gremlins. This can be the difference between taking losses or doing a "perfect" fight.
Many maps and templates already provide level 1 creature dwellings which are free unlike all other creatures. This is also an advantage for level 1 specialists. Also we take into account that + 1 atk and def at level 1 is the minimum for creatures with nonzero stats. At level 1, this is a significant boost considering most heroes will only have 0-2 atk and def skills.
(of course this hero should be an Alchemist to be viable, since Wizard skill progression is bad for creature combat)
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heymlich
Famous Hero
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posted July 31, 2022 08:39 PM |
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Hourglass said:
Gremlin specialist - Would pretty much revolutionize the Tower gameplay.
I want that one 
Hourglass said:
Medusa specialist - Overlords are likely the best might class in the game, so it's likely that if a hero like this would exist, it couldn't be very bad.
I cannot imagine myself to ever pick that one over the already existing minotaur specialist.
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted August 01, 2022 01:59 AM |
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I would think a static bonus would be pretty fine, specially if adding the +1 of speed, without being OP (or without being so OP as Crag, Tazar & Gunnar) if values were kept within reason (Mutare is in fact too strong, Xeron is not) but normal scaling specialty would be misleading:
1. Wouldn't start with creatures of his specialty and you would have to build the most expensive dwelling and achieve level 7 before getting anything from his specialty, so not a good starting hero.
2. Their viability in normal templates would be more dependent on their Secondary Skills and Class then on the specialty per se.
As usual, I think Phoenix suggestion of give so, so Secondary Skills to these heroes is terrible. For them to be of any use, they should have perfect skills.
That way you could create custom maps, with preset battles making use of the plus one of speed and allowing experience to grow way beyond normal, so specialty could shine. And for this you don't want a Neela but an Ivor or Alkin.
P.S. I was still on the other page when I wrote this...
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heymlich
Famous Hero
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posted August 01, 2022 08:25 AM |
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bloodsucker said:
P.S. I was still on the other page when I wrote this...
Me too 
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