Heroes of Might and Magic Community
visiting hero! Register | Today's Posts | Games | Search! | FAQ/Rules | AvatarList | MemberList | Profile


Age of Heroes Headlines:  
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
6 Aug 2016: Troubled Heroes VII Expansion Release - read more
26 Apr 2016: Heroes VII XPack - Trial by Fire - Coming out in June! - read more
17 Apr 2016: Global Alternative Creatures MOD for H7 after 1.8 Patch! - read more
7 Mar 2016: Romero launches a Piano Sonata Album Kickstarter! - read more
19 Feb 2016: Heroes 5.5 RC6, Heroes VII patch 1.7 are out! - read more
13 Jan 2016: Horn of the Abyss 1.4 Available for Download! - read more
17 Dec 2015: Heroes 5.5 update, 1.6 out for H7 - read more
23 Nov 2015: H7 1.4 & 1.5 patches Released - read more
31 Oct 2015: First H7 patches are out, End of DoC development - read more
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
[X] Remove Ads
LOGIN:     Username:     Password:         [ Register ]
HOMM1: info forum | HOMM2: info forum | HOMM3: info mods forum | HOMM4: info CTG forum | HOMM5: info mods forum | MMH6: wiki forum | MMH7: wiki forum
Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: Design an Heroes game where Eagle Eye is the best skill
Thread: Design an Heroes game where Eagle Eye is the best skill
NimoStar
NimoStar


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted June 23, 2022 05:00 AM
Edited by NimoStar at 05:04, 23 Jun 2022.

Design an Heroes game where Eagle Eye is the best skill

The title says it all: Design an Heroes game where Eagle Eye is the best skill

Ok, here is my own try, err...

How about a game where every neutral creature stack has its own Neutral Hero?

And the Neutral Hero comes with random spells according to the monster level... (just level 1 spells for level 1 monsters, 10 spell points;  up to level 2 spells for level 2 monsters, 20 spell points, and so on)

This way the EE hero could learn spells every time he fights

(something like this would be doable in H4 maps where there are neutral heroes, too bad no Eagle Eye there)

All towns can get Mage Guild to max level, but the selection of spells from each town type is more limited compared to the total (there are more banned spells than allowed spells), thus making you more realiant on learning from neutrals.

Additional mechanic:
The way to get the location of the Grail is to learn all spells. No obelisks required. Each spell is a part of the "Puzzle".

12x12 puzzle = 144 spells, almost the same as in my H4 Ultimate mod (which has 176).

Pretty sure this would make Eagle Eye the most valuable skill. Most importantly, it would be much more fun.

Rules of the contest:
- Eagle Eye mechanics must remain as they are in H3.
-- That means "Eagle Eye learns spells cast in battle", nothing more.
-- If you create your "new eagle eye" that does more stuff or different stuff, then you are not creating a different game scenario, just a different eagle eye, that doesn't count.
____________
Never changing = never improving

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Gandalf196
Gandalf196


Disgraceful
Supreme Hero
posted June 23, 2022 06:04 AM

This is a prime example of a constructive post, the kind that's been missing in these forums for some time. Great idea, Nimo, very clever solution to the conundrum. I also believe that the problem with the useless skills (namely the dreadful trio, Eagle Eye, Learning and Scholar) has more to do with the game itself - the fact that it is simplistic and poorly designed at the most fundamental level -, than to the skills' numbers.
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
yogi
yogi


Promising
Famous Hero
of picnics
posted June 23, 2022 07:32 AM

Gandalf196 said:
- the fact that it is simplistic and poorly designed at the most fundamental level -



____________
"Lol we are HC'ers.. The same tribe.. Guy!" ~Ghost

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted June 23, 2022 11:05 AM
Edited by bloodsucker at 11:13, 23 Jun 2022.

One thing I saw in WoG and I think it's great is: check the spells you can still learn, if there are no more spells to learn the skill vanishes and the slot is now free. That would work even for EE specialists, cause they would get a chance to unlearn the skill before others.
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
purerogue
purerogue


Known Hero
posted June 23, 2022 03:58 PM

bloodsucker said:
if there are no more spells to learn the skill vanishes and the slot is now free. That would work even for EE specialists, cause they would get a chance to unlearn the skill before others.


intelligent EE
____________
I have a book and I had been in a hospital. -Unknown

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Phoenix4ever
Phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted June 23, 2022 05:22 PM

That would certainly be an improvement or just give us Market of Time, so we can remove skills we don't want.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted June 23, 2022 05:51 PM
Edited by JollyJoker at 17:53, 23 Jun 2022.

Eagle Eye would be the most valuable skill if
a) there were no mage guilds or map locations where to learn spells from;
b) all/most creatures could cast (a) spell(s)/had an active spell-casting ability like, say, Mages in HoMM 4.

In this case heroes would pick up spells exclusively via the Eagle Eye skill and would therefore be limited without it to the casting of their starting spell(s), if they had any.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted June 23, 2022 05:51 PM
Edited by Elvin at 17:52, 23 Jun 2022.

I agree with the original post though H5 was smart enough to include spells cast from units, including those of your own faction, at 100% success rate. But if neutral heroes have random spells, that makes it a lot more reliable. Better yet, that would allow neutral units to also be blessed with might bonuses and not just spell support.

When you mentioned redesigning homm around eagle eye, I remembered the H2 mechanic of garrison support heroes. And H6 had neutral forts that when captured, gave control over the nearby dwellings/mines. A combination would have been effective, though I do not particularly care about the control point mechanics.

Another possibility is a raiding building/mechanic. We've seen how caravans can send army from everywhere towards your own towns. Something like that but they attack your opponent's town with a newly spawned hero(mercenary?) whose sole mission is to take that town and is not directly controlled on the adventure map. Though, that would not feed the main hero with spells as directly as fighting a hero you meet in exploration.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
NimoStar
NimoStar


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted June 23, 2022 09:29 PM
Edited by NimoStar at 21:41, 23 Jun 2022.

bloodsucker said:
One thing I saw in WoG and I think it's great is: check the spells you can still learn, if there are no more spells to learn the skill vanishes and the slot is now free. That would work even for EE specialists, cause they would get a chance to unlearn the skill before others.


I don't think that really compensates specialty, since you still would be left with an useless bonus compared with Sorcery, Resistance or Creature specialists that keep increasing.

Tough, i do agree that unlearning skills (like Market of Time) should be a thing (maybe for some cost, of course).

In my scheme EE specialist would be fastest way to grail, thus compensating that way.

Quote:
When you mentioned redesigning homm around eagle eye, I remembered the H2 mechanic of garrison support heroes. And H6 had neutral forts that when captured, gave control over the nearby dwellings/mines. A combination would have been effective, though I do not particularly care about the control point mechanics.


Instead of control points I would do it like abandones mines, which of course should have a hero too. Only H3-like feature that I woudn't put a hero on would be Creature Banks (mainly because then the H3 attack layout would look even weirder), but if you don't make enemy creatures surround you, then sure.

*

Of course, learn rate could be adjusted or even be 100%, that is not the main thing but increase opportunity to trigger, and value of learning more spells.

In original H3 the worse conditions are:
1- There are few spells
2- Neutrals never spellcast
3- Randomly learning more spells is not very valuable
4- You don't make contact with the enemy until the game is about to end
5- Game is decided usually in a single battle, there is no opportunity to use learned spells later
6- The best spells (Dimension Door, Town Portal, Fly) aren't even cast in combat

The first three things I adressed. For the last I propose (besides banning those because they are OP, but other map spells would remain):
Heroes with Eagle Eye can learn spells cast in the adventure map if they are cast from within their scouting radius

____________
Never changing = never improving

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
gatecrasher
gatecrasher


Famous Hero
posted June 23, 2022 10:08 PM

Rules of the contest:
- Eagle Eye mechanics must remain as they are in H3.



No, for the love of god, no.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Hourglass
Hourglass


Famous Hero
posted June 24, 2022 12:03 AM

Something you can probably try right now, without any coding:

*Every spell is "banned" by map rules, meaning the map cannot teach spells from Mage guilds etc. (enabling Disguise or something useless is necessary to make this work IIRC).
*Scholar and heroes that start with Scholar are banned.
*Scrolls are banned.
*Artifacts that somehow give spells are banned.
*Shrines of magic are banned, and every other map object that would teach spells are banned, too.
*Something-that-I-missed-that-can-teach-spells-is-being-banned.

Result: Heroes can only use the spell they happen to start with. Only way to learn more spells is through Eagle Eye.

If one would be worried about getting only a very might-oriented challenge, then consider banning all might heroes as well.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
purerogue
purerogue


Known Hero
posted June 24, 2022 12:24 AM

Hourglass said:
If one would be worried about getting only a very might-oriented challenge, then consider banning all might heroes as well.


I can imagine a bunch of self-inflicted, one-eyed heroes running around with feeble troops trying their best to copy each other's spells, but end up spending all their time at the tavern waiting to get re-hired.
____________
I have a book and I had been in a hospital. -Unknown

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
LordCameron
LordCameron


Hired Hero
Veteran of the Succession Wars
posted June 24, 2022 03:24 AM

When I was a kid who had no idea how to play HommII I had a knight who didn't have wisdom and only had access to my starting town. Eagle eye became my favourite skill because it was the only way I could learn spells and he had decent power and knowledge.

With that in mind:
Neutral Heroes defending neutral stacks. ERA already has a setting for this, though it doesn't seem to change much, so additionally
Mage guild have -1 spell per level
Might Heroes limited to basic wisdom or no wisdom at all.
Stronghold mage guild max level 2?
Castle max level 3
Separate mass spells from normal spells


Kind of bending the rules, but make each spell level (basic, expert, etc) a unique spell, whichever you know the best of is the one in your spellbook.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
LordCameron
LordCameron


Hired Hero
Veteran of the Succession Wars
posted June 25, 2022 02:09 AM

Alternate method: Bring back Homm 1 style spell casting.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
NimoStar
NimoStar


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted June 25, 2022 08:21 AM

I somewhat like some of lordCameron proposals, but

Quote:
Something you can probably try right now, without any coding:

*Every spell is "banned" by map rules, meaning the map cannot teach spells from Mage guilds etc. (enabling Disguise or something useless is necessary to make this work IIRC).
*Scholar and heroes that start with Scholar are banned.
*Scrolls are banned.
*Artifacts that somehow give spells are banned.
*Shrines of magic are banned, and every other map object that would teach spells are banned, too.
*Something-that-I-missed-that-can-teach-spells-is-being-banned.

Result: Heroes can only use the spell they happen to start with. Only way to learn more spells is through Eagle Eye.

If one would be worried about getting only a very might-oriented challenge, then consider banning all might heroes as well.


This is terrible, basically unless you put in third-player heroes in the map, you would only learn when fighting the opponent and could only learn a single spell from them... and then if they main hero was the one defeated, the gamne would be essentially over. So Eagle Eye (and the game in general) would still be pretty terrible. I think the game would be won by one of those specialists like Solmyr that have either Chain Lightning or Meteor Shower, so they really don't need any other spells.

The alternative is banning those heroes as well or "disabling" them as pre-placed neutrals to learn from so no player can recruit them. This would have to be a *very* customized map tho to ensure balance and fun, at which point modding the game is probably easier for this purpose...
____________
Never changing = never improving

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted June 25, 2022 09:35 AM

Hmm. H1 guilds didn't permanently teach you spells but gave you as many uses as your knowledge allowed. While I did not particularly like that, it would give a bit more value to eagle eye, especially if it refreshed the uses in the same way a guild would.

Another possibility would be introducing magical vaults themed around each element. They would have guardians plus a magical rod that each turn buffs one of them or harms one of your stacks. Obviously, the amount of casts would have to be limited or the player would want to stall and learn more spells.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
NimoStar
NimoStar


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted June 27, 2022 10:37 PM
Edited by NimoStar at 22:37, 27 Jun 2022.

Well, neutral heroes already have limited spell points so that would be quite similar, but yes, it isn't such a bad idea.

On the other hand if learning from enemy creatures is enabled the only ones with unlimited casts are Enchanters, so either they would have to be limited or learning from them disabled, otherwise yes people would stall.

IF we speak aout a wholly new game, no unlimited creature caster should be able to exist.
____________
Never changing = never improving

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Jump To: « Prev Thread . . . Next Thread »
Post New Poll    Post New Topic    Post New Reply

Page compiled in 0.0553 seconds