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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Worst Tower hero
Thread: Worst Tower hero This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT»
NimoStar
NimoStar


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted August 03, 2022 02:27 PM
Edited by NimoStar at 14:28, 03 Aug 2022.

Quote:
It's mainly a Hota thing

Quote:
he is a decent supporting hero in HotA

By ghost:
Quote:
Remember common brainy, this isn't HotA




You can't steal ballista in the normal game, not that it would change much anyways.

* * *

I'm scared of the tower lobby mafia

While Magic isn't as good for late game combat someone like Solmyr can creep the map cleaning up enemies extremely fast thus gaining momentum, dwellings mines and artifacts faster than practically any other hero.
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heymlich
heymlich


Known Hero
posted August 03, 2022 03:40 PM

NimoStar said:

While Magic isn't as good for late game combat someone like Solmyr can creep the map cleaning up enemies extremely fast thus gaining momentum, dwellings mines and artifacts faster than practically any other hero.


I don't know what kind of maps you play, my own experience is different.

Solmyr can cast one chain lightning, then he is out of mana. Then he can run back to your castle and sit there for one turn. You can chain units and artifacts, but not mana. He will have to run back and forth by himself.

You call that fast? An archery hero will be much more efficient.

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fanofheroes
fanofheroes


Famous Hero
posted August 03, 2022 04:07 PM

I would say Dracon is the only true wizard as his specialty can make them (enchanters).  But campaign heroes are not the same and he's not on the list, so..... I don't usually play Tower



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Hourglass
Hourglass


Famous Hero
posted August 03, 2022 10:05 PM

NimoStar said:

You can't steal ballista in the normal game, not that it would change much anyways.

Either one of us is somehow confused. I meant that you just simply take Torosar's ballista and use it on the main hero, or on any hero that happens to do fighting. Even if the wielder couldn't utilize it very well, the ballista can work as a punching bag for the AI, giving you more time to play around enemies and not facing every stack at once.

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NimoStar
NimoStar


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Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted August 04, 2022 02:01 AM

heymlich said:
NimoStar said:

While Magic isn't as good for late game combat someone like Solmyr can creep the map cleaning up enemies extremely fast thus gaining momentum, dwellings mines and artifacts faster than practically any other hero.


I don't know what kind of maps you play, my own experience is different.

Solmyr can cast one chain lightning, then he is out of mana. Then he can run back to your castle and sit there for one turn. You can chain units and artifacts, but not mana. He will have to run back and forth by himself.

You call that fast? An archery hero will be much more efficient.


First off, i didnt mean level 1 solmyr could do all that. But heroes gain levels and chain lightning also helps with that, a lot. Wizards are weighted towards gaining more knowledge so Solmyr will be casting lots of chain lightning very fast.

Een a single chain lightning will decimate most ai enemies (who will alresdy be conveniently split into 3/4 stacks) and master gremlins will finish the rest with no losses

Furthermore there are several mana rechsrgers in the map most prominently magic well.

Solmyr also benefits greatly from dungeon (mana vortex) and conflux (air magic) but this is just a bonus, not that he needs it. Wall of knowledge in tower itself is alresdy pretty good.
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Zaio-Baio
Zaio-Baio


Promising
Famous Hero
posted August 04, 2022 02:15 AM
Edited by Zaio-Baio at 02:56, 06 Aug 2022.

NimoStar said:
Quote:

While Magic isn't as good for late game combat someone like Solmyr can creep the map cleaning up enemies extremely fast thus gaining momentum, dwellings mines and artifacts faster than practically any other hero.


You can always use fly/dd to force the final fight before the game reaches the point where armies are too big and damaging spells are ineffective.

Solmir starts with wisdom, which is useless early game, and sorcery which is very underpowered. His chance to get offered earth magic as 1st magic skill is 3/14 and its also very unlikely that he will learn offense/armorer/logistics/tactics. When playing tower its best to level up several might heroes (barbarians/overlords/beastmasters/rangers/planeswalkers) to level 4 and see who gets earth magic and use him as main.

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Honorable
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Modding the Unmoddable
posted August 04, 2022 10:02 PM
Edited by NimoStar at 22:04, 04 Aug 2022.

Quote:
You can always use fly/dd to force the final fight before the game reaches the point where armies are too big and damaging spells are ineffective.


Banned spells...

But well, that would work to the favor of my argument since:

Quote:
Solmir starts with wisdom, which is useless early game, and sorcery which is very underpowered. His chance to get offered earth magic as 1st magic skill is 3/14 and its also very unlikely that he will learn offense/armorer/logistics/tactics. When playing tower its best to level up several might heroes (barbarians/overlords/beastmasters/rangers/elementalists) to level 4 and see who gets earth magic and use him as main.


With Solmyr you try to get Air not Earth.

This will make Chain Lightning cheaper and much stronger.

Also Haste to allow you to begin rounds with spellcast.

For ending fast game it's not important to get Earth. The use of Solmyr will be similar to a Phoenix-armageddon combo, where you hope to inflict as much damage with spells as early as possible; you can always retreat and come back later, while enemy is weakened every time. Power scaling of Chain Lightning from Power skill is total same as Implosion (40+20+10+5(+3)) vs 75. Base damage is not that far off with all jumps either, plus you can kill several pesky small stacks. And that is before spell specialist bonus.

But anyways, even if you don't use Solmyr as "final battle hero", creeping with him at map start is basically a free bonus for choosing him.
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Phoenix4ever
Phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted August 04, 2022 10:16 PM

After all these years I'm beginning to dislike spells like Chain Lightning and Implosion, they are far to easy to spam and just destroy the enemy instantly, you don't even need magic schools for them and they don't even help much either. Add to that the +50% damage orbs and you will be spamming these spells even more.

Seems like with Slow, Blind, Res/AD and some good damage spells you don't really need much other combat spells, it's a shame really...

I guess HotA tried to combat the damage spells with Interference, but I would'nt call it's implementation perfect.

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Zaio-Baio
Zaio-Baio


Promising
Famous Hero
posted August 04, 2022 10:46 PM
Edited by Zaio-Baio at 23:24, 04 Aug 2022.

NimoStar said:
With Solmyr you try to get Air not Earth.

In multiplayer it is essential to get earth magic as 1st magic skill. Mass slow provides better creeping than chain lightning. I level up multiple might heroes to level 4 and use the one that gets earth magic.
NimoStar said:
For ending fast game it's not important to get Earth.

Mass slow provides the fastest tempo. So it is essential if you want to play as efficient as possible.
NimoStar said:
The use of Solmyr will be similar to a Phoenix-armageddon combo, where you hope to inflict as much damage with spells as early as possible; you can always retreat and come back later, while enemy is weakened every time.

If you dont get earth magic quickly you will be outfarmed and crushed.
Also hit and run with tower is not easy, because your fastest unit has 11 speed. You are going to be on the receiving end of the hit and run tactics. Not to mention that on rich maps other towns can get Angelic alliance combo, cast mass haste on their 1st turn and attack you with all their army before tower gets to move. Even if you have the Angelic alliance it wont cast mass prayer until you get your 1st unit turn. Example - i have castle and i get to move 1st because Archangels have 18 speed. Angelic alliance casts mass prayer and my entire army gets +4 speed. On my Archangel turn i cast mass haste for +5 speed and now all my army has + 9 speed. So marksman, that normally have 6 speed will now have 15 (because of prayer + haste) and even they will move before your titans. And even if you also have Angelic alliance combo you will not get mass prayer casted before your titans/genies get their turn to act, which will happen only after all my army has played and attacked yours.
NimoStar said:
But anyways, even if you don't use Solmyr as "final battle hero", creeping with him at map start is basically a free bonus for choosing him.

Its much better to creep with mass slow. I know Solmyr is a fun hero, but as far as efficiency goes might hero with good starting skills + quick mass slow is the best combo possible.

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NimoStar
NimoStar


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posted August 04, 2022 11:37 PM
Edited by NimoStar at 23:43, 04 Aug 2022.

What scientific evidence is there for thinking that mass slow expert earth skill roulette scientifically beats all? WHile you are trying your third might hero recruited from tavern "to get earth at level 4", and only with basic slow at most, Solmyr will have already gained decisive advantage and destroyed all opposition. Most towns only get a 30% chance to get slow, tower without library is only 50%. Might heroes don't even come with spells. Solmyr is guaranteed chain lightning since day 0. You choose random over certainty, chaos over order, plus slow does not work well vs shooters. Such is not the most optimized, only dogma.

If that was the case even with nerfed conflux starting earth magic heroes would beat all. Indeed if you were right Grindan would be the best hero ever, since it has starting Slow AND Earth Magic. However this is not the case, is it?
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Zaio-Baio
Zaio-Baio


Promising
Famous Hero
posted August 06, 2022 02:52 AM

NimoStar said:
Indeed if you were right Grindan would be the best hero ever, since it has starting Slow AND Earth Magic. However this is not the case, is it?


Grindan is a magic hero, so he will get crappy secondary skills just like Solmyr. That being said Grindan is actually a lot stronger than Solmir because he starts with earth + slow.

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted August 06, 2022 03:17 AM
Edited by NimoStar at 03:19, 06 Aug 2022.

I take it from other posts that you only take into account hota HC sao your opinion is invalid

Remember interference was introduced because of the dominance of spell damage meta.

Solmyr is spell damage meta (best spell damage hero second to none, since for example meteor shower ones don't have the range Chain Lightning has, and has much lower power progression) and thus with no HotA he owns.
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heymlich
heymlich


Known Hero
posted August 07, 2022 12:01 AM
Edited by heymlich at 00:02, 07 Aug 2022.

NimoStar said:
Solmyr is spell damage meta


I'll have to disagree again.

Despite being inferior to might heroes, spell casters are used for one thing: Taking dwellings in week 1, when you simply don't have the army to beat them. After all, it makes a huge difference, if you can take down that golden pavillon end of week 1 or start of week 2.

For this task, magic arrow is better suited than chain lightning. Grindan will do much better than Solmyr. Otherwise you can use one of the heroes that start with meteor shower.

I understand you like Solmyr and I admit, at some point he was my favourite too. But after more than 20 years it is time to move on to someone better.

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted August 07, 2022 12:45 PM
Edited by bloodsucker at 12:52, 07 Aug 2022.

All this quarrel about MP is letting behind the fact 1 Hero templates are the new thing and it seems magic heroes do pretty well on these.
More and more MP is becoming as much what you want to make of it as SP carefully designed maps. Add the Red Orb, might rules. Add scrolls with the control spells, Knowledge rules. Add springs in the middle and make a ton of tomes available, Power rules.
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evildustruct...
evildustructor


Known Hero
Pizza Man dominos pizza yummy
posted August 07, 2022 02:32 PM

lol grindan > solmyr on basically all templates why are you saying hota jc

name any template, grindan still offers more than solmyr

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted August 07, 2022 05:34 PM
Edited by NimoStar at 17:45, 07 Aug 2022.

really? Solmyr offers a level 4 spell, grindan has a level 1 spell that you have 50% hance of getting with mage sguild 1 and a skill which you can get with magic university for any hero as conflux (the only grindan as first hero faction)

But anyways """competitive players""" are a bore

Even if it were try that the best optimized strategy is to recruit lots of might heroes and hope one of them gets level earth magic and slow... and that winner of that is essentially random.

Is that really the game you want to be playing? Over and over again? For years?

Yeah no, that is extremely boring, it's chess if there is only a single opening, and the one that gets best RNG while doing always the same, wins.

Let's break this into the barest essentials. Remember this are all your affirmations , not mine.

There is a single optimal strategy (ZaioBaio) -> The game is terribly balanced
The game plan is always the same no matter the circumstances (evildustruct) -> There is a complete lack of variety
Success (Earth Magic, Slow) depends on RNG -> Since both players are expected to do the same, skill is irrelevant, only the most lucky wins

THis reinforces my belief hota players are boring and hota MP is boring AF.
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DarkAtom
DarkAtom


Adventuring Hero
posted August 07, 2022 06:52 PM

All right, you use 7500 gold to hire 3 heroes, out of which 1 gets Earth Magic on level 4 (and let's assume he/she already learned Slow in the process). Next, you need to level him/her up to get Expert Earth, because single-target slow is just a level 1 spell and not an OP must-be-nerfed spell.

In the mean time, Solmyr kills those Grand Elves on day 1 with his Chain Lightning, giving him a major advantage, while your hero casts Expert Slow (but likely not on day 1), giving your troops 5 more seconds before they get shot, making you win with painful losses (unless you have Air Shield or Forgetfulness, level 3 spells).

And don't forget that Solmyr can also hire his own heroes so that they can get Earth Magic, too.

As for Conflux, you need a lot of resources for the Magic University that you could use more efficiently on day 1 (not to mention the fee to learn the skill). So that leaves Grindan (and also Labetha, because I assume you can easily get Slow in the Mage Guild). What will Basic Slow accomplish in Day 1? Not more than Basic Chain Lightning, for sure.
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"If you get scared of doing what's right you might as well lay down and die" - Wulfstan, Heroes of Might and Magic V: Hammers of Fate

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 07, 2022 07:50 PM

That's nonsense. On day 1 those Grand Elves kill you right away before it's even Solmyr's turn, except when the battle is on snow. To kill Grand Elves with Solmyr you need to Upgrade Gargoyles or build Genies. However, if you can upgrade Gargoyles fast you don't need Solmyr, but advanced Tactics which is a lot better.

And allow me one last cpmment: If you play maps that actually allow you to hire FOUR might heroes RIGHT AWAY, forgoing not only troops, but having to hire more than 3 additional heroes since it's highly unlikely you just get might heroes to pick from, you play 1) the wrong kind of maps 2) on the wrong kind of difficulty level.

That's not even worth a discussion in my opinion.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted August 07, 2022 09:12 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 21:12, 07 Aug 2022.

I'm not really sure why you are arguing about Slow VS Chain Lightning. (or Grindan VS Solmyr for that matter.)
Both are great spells, in the very early game I prefer Slow though. Chain Lightning is a lot more expensive and can only be cast 1-2 times, before mana needs to be recharged.  
Chain Lightning is more suited for mid-late game, when you have mana and power to cast it and do some damage. Chain Lightning is also a bit more dangerous, as it can hit yourself, so you need 4 or 5 enemy targets, unless you wanna damage yourself. (Or wears Pendant of Negativity.)

Regarding ranged units, I usually let them run, if I can't deal with them, without taking too much damage.

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evildustruct...
evildustructor


Known Hero
Pizza Man dominos pizza yummy
posted August 07, 2022 09:46 PM

chain sucks compared to slow lol its about consistency, expert slow gives you advantage in like 99% of fights while chain is situationally good. its like compqring Apples to oranges

solmyr is just a semi good hero all around while grindan is broken lol. having grindan eliminates many risks and gives u Huge tempo advantage unless its all ranged fights everywbere (which u won't have) and even then slow is still useful

sorcery and wizards both suck as well so there u go grindan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> solmyr even tho both are bad classes grindan is insane


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