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| Thread: Statement by Donald J. Trump, 45th President of the United States of America |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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JollyJoker
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posted April 02, 2023 09:22 PM |
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No. Judaism is canonically a state religion. That is obvious.
Christianity hasn't even been a religion on their own, because Jesus was a Jew and preached for JEWS. And only when it became a state religion it got that universal thing.
And more - if Christianity isn't a state religion BY DESIGN (or cabon) because Jesus said this and that - isn't it strange that it not only cevame one in Rome, but de facto in Rome's sucessor states as well?
Religions are ideologies and are used by organisations with agendas.
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Drakon-Deus
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posted April 02, 2023 09:34 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
Religions are ideologies and are used by organisations with agendas.
They are.
However, some tend to lump together Judaism, Christianity and Islam as if there were no differences between them.
Artu is correct.
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artu
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posted April 02, 2023 09:58 PM |
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@JJ
It is a state religion for Jews, not an imperial state, judaism can be considered even henotheistic.
Yes, religions are ideologies of their time and ideological by nature, they are social teachings. And just like any ideology, they have their own characteristics and distinctions, as well as similarities.
I mean, of course, they have a certain potential of elasticity to adjust to different times and cultures but once again, not in an identical degree or fashion. In this regard, fundamentalist Islam is much more radical and intrusive than fundamentalist Christianity in the 21st century. Christianity can and did evolve into a state religion under fitting circumstances but that’s different than having it directly in detail within your source material. Just look at all the religions and cultures of the world, and not only Abrahamic religions or Europe. Islamic countries are the ones that are struggling the most to adjust to secular law and life. And this is not geographical or exclusive to a single host culture. From Indonesia to Afghanistan, from Saudi Arabia to Iran, very different cultures and people all have the same problem to a degree. The only common factor is Islam. So, naturally, fundamental Islam is more alarming than fundamental Christianity both in quality and in quantity.
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JollyJoker
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posted April 02, 2023 10:30 PM |
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I think you won't have a problem to compare Christianity and Islam if you look into the past. Conquistadors? Colonialism?
The actual difference NOW is the fact that the Christian hemisphere suffered from a couple of all-encompassing wars.
The cornerstone of "religious imperialism" is male domination - take that away and it stops. Take m ale domination from islam - and it szops being aggressive. Those world wars (and it's the same with Judaism) led to women serving in male dominated areas and so on.
I'm really not in the mood to discuss this since it is pretty obvious. OF COURSE there is a difference now, since things have been debeloping in a different way. But that's not based on canonic differences.
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artu
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posted April 02, 2023 11:18 PM |
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Edited by artu at 23:33, 02 Apr 2023.
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“Obvious” is quite a daring word for such a marginal hypothesis. And you dont and almost certainly can not have a “feminist Islam” anyway to begin with.
European colonizations were not crusades, religion was not the motive, it was sugarcoating at most in some cases, (like “bringing democracy” is).
There are historical and canonical approaches to explain the difference in today. It is not purely canonical of course, but canon is not ineffective. And the main difference is not encompassing wars, the actual obvious reason is that Christian countries are already secularized for centuries now. (This is also interlinked with canon). Their own majority dont live according to religion, their law and education isnt based on religion so why should they want to empose it to others.
Anyway, canonical or not, since you agree that there is a difference today, then why did you ask “how is it any different” in the first place? This is how we got here remember.
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JollyJoker
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posted April 02, 2023 11:39 PM |
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artu said:
And the main difference is not encompassing wars, the actual obvious reason is that Christian countries are already secularized for centuries now.
Not true. They have been secularized only in name, not in actuality. Case in point: all laws based not on reason but on the bible.
And I asked how religious POLITICAL ORGANISATIONS were any different. They aren't - they push their agenda. Is a Christian/Jewish/Muslim agenda "better" than others? THAT DEPENDS. On what your own agenda is. Me? Jahve, Allah, Jesus - doesn't matter. People claiming to speak for them -> screw them. As they say in Germany, put them in a sack and hit them with with a big club.
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artu
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posted April 02, 2023 11:59 PM |
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Edited by artu at 16:35, 03 Apr 2023.
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Well, the secularization may not be absolute but it is certainly solid, especially if you compare it to Muslim countries. About ten years ago or so, a Budhist woman in Indonesia faced trial for death penalty because she complained about the loudness of the prayer from a mosque, if I remember correctly, she was also sentenced but the punishment didnt execute because of international diplomacy. Can you imagine anybody sentenced to death complainig about church bells, wars or no wars? Here, in Turkey, our president waves the Quran into the crowd while defending his policy of interest rates, saying interest is sin according to the dogma and that is all that matters. Taking interest is also a sin according to Christianity, can you imagine Merkel waving a Bible to the crowd regarding monetary policy? These were problems during the times of the Medicis, ffs.
And the level and scope of fundamentality naturally reflects on the organizations.
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JollyJoker
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posted April 03, 2023 08:45 AM |
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It looks secularized, but it isn't, especially not in the USA. Just look at child marriage which is an issue all over the world - including the US. You'd think that it was a muslim issue, but it isn't, when you look at the statistics. Yes, muslim countries allow child marriage - but in the US it's not forbidden either and there Christians are forcing minors into marriage.
Aggressive or not, the religions in question have all in common that one half of the population has been dominating the other half. Everything else comes from the dominating half. The difference between religions is the degree of female emancipation from that domination, that is the single most relevant thing. Based on that we can see that the Islam is still fully in the male domination phase, while in Christian countries that process has started - not happenstantially - when the build-up to WW I began, a good century ago. With Judaism, Israel and their situation has made a real difference. Wars have a way to change things.
In any case we are not there.
The point was that religiously motivated political organisations are alike - they have a religiously motivated agenda and try to push it with political means. Forbid abortion and homosexuality, for example. Keep traditional values like "family", everyone knowing their role and a mother is a mother. And so on.
Just to give you examples. It took a revolution in Germany and a lost world war, for women to get voting rights: In 1919 they were allowed to vote (and be voted). 1949 the new German constitution explicitely stated that men and women were equal. However, though. Law said, that married women could work only if that work was consistent with their duties in marriage and family. in the 60s and 70s we saw a rise of activity to change that - not THAT long ago. Same with having a bank account. Not before 1958. Not for women. In Germany.
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artu
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posted April 03, 2023 04:50 PM |
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Yes, I realize it's not black and white, especially if you compare Bible Belt states of the U.S. to semi-secular Muslim countries etc. But the gap between is still pretty deep when it comes to the level and content of intrusion from organized religion.
And when you take a feminist approach, basing it on the wars, keep in mind that we and other muslim countries also fought in WWI and lost significant portion of working-class/middle-class males. They are called World Wars for a reason. So that can not be the only effect in play. And you have feminst movements before the first war anyhow, we have traveler journals from 16th century, where ambassadors speak about "how in Europe, women can dance with any man they want in a ball and the husband wont intervene" etc. This doesnt mean equality, of course but even monogamy is a pretty big difference on the road to that.
As one can expect, we are both more reactive to the bigots of our own culture. That doesnt mean there is a symmetry in them in every aspect though.
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JollyJoker
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posted April 03, 2023 06:43 PM |
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Yup, and in Turkey the situation for women is better than in, say, Saudi-Arabia, Bahrain, Kuwait, Yemen, and so on.
I'm not entirely sure what your point is.
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artu
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posted April 03, 2023 07:56 PM |
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Edited by artu at 20:02, 03 Apr 2023.
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That's ok, I know at your age one's memory can get a little fuzzy. 
The point is, somebody said that KKK supports Trump, as a negative quality that is related to Trump, not KKK. So, Sal objected by saying "if you go by that logic, radical Islamist organizations support Leftist parties." That is a fair objection. Now, your objection to that was asking how Islamist organizations are any different than Christian or Jewish ones. Skipping aside the fact that such a question is beside the point, the difference is that your typical Islamist organization is the equivalent of KKK, not your average conservative Christian organization, in terms of bigotry and aggresiveness. An average conservative Christian organization today would be against legalizing gay marriage for instance, where as, an average Islamist organization would take it to the level of supporting imprisonment of homosexuals. (Just after I gave this hypothetical example, I decided to check out Muslim Brotherhood about it and guess what, turns out I was even optimistic: Link )
It was you who asked what the difference was, and that is simply it.
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JollyJoker
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posted April 03, 2023 08:16 PM |
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artu
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posted April 03, 2023 08:32 PM |
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Your first link is mostly about statistics of individual attacks related to hate crime, not political organizations.
Your second link actually confirms me, it is about organizations objecting to trans people competing as women in sports or things like "one of its most famous recent cases was of a baker in Colorado who refused to make a wedding cake for a same-sex couple. The group argued baking was his form of artistic expression, and won. In another, the group successfully argued the arts and crafts company Hobby Lobby should not be required to pay for birth control included in private insurance plans, because of the owner’s Christian faith." None of these can be compared to suggesting to "slaughter them and burn them alive."
Third one is still basically about hate speech and regular non-sensical prophecy.
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Ghost
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posted April 03, 2023 08:34 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
Because the Bible, you know. God hilself ordered that homosexuals had to be killed, not just the prophet.
Try to understand ANCIENT MOSES' LAW.. Today the God doesn't accept a kill.. The Bible said if you know some is homosexual, you expel homosexual from the Church.. When homosexual regrets sexual immorality, and homosexual leaves homosexual desire, and ex-homosexual can go to the Church back.. An example JWs do a such way..
EDIT Am I understood your question and matter? A good..
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JollyJoker
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posted April 03, 2023 09:45 PM |
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artu said:
Your first link is mostly about statistics of individual attacks related to hate crime, not political organizations.
Your second link actually confirms me, it is about organizations objecting to trans people competing as women in sports or things like "one of its most famous recent cases was of a baker in Colorado who refused to make a wedding cake for a same-sex couple. The group argued baking was his form of artistic expression, and won. In another, the group successfully argued the arts and crafts company Hobby Lobby should not be required to pay for birth control included in private insurance plans, because of the owner’s Christian faith." None of these can be compared to suggesting to "slaughter them and burn them alive."
Third one is still basically about hate speech and regular non-sensical prophecy.
The second link is about a Christian political organisazion working worldwide against LGBT rights, including siding with groups pishing for criminalizing gays. If you want Christians crying for blood: there you go
You gave a link to a hate speech in TV on a channel "affiliated" to a muslim group. What is the above link?
I really do not want to search the internet for the "God hates Fags" hate groups, but there are enough of it, and the list of hate crimes is pretty long.
The point stands. God orders to kill gays as well, not only Mohammed.
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JollyJoker
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posted April 03, 2023 09:48 PM |
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Ghost said:
JollyJoker said:
Because the Bible, you know. God hilself ordered that homosexuals had to be killed, not just the prophet.
Try to understand ANCIENT MOSES' LAW.. Today the God doesn't accept a kill.. The Bible said if you know some is homosexual, you expel homosexual from the Church.. When homosexual regrets sexual immorality, and homosexual leaves homosexual desire, and ex-homosexual can go to the Church back.. An example JWs do a such way..
EDIT Am I understood your question and matter? A good..
Tell that the Christian hate groups. Why would homosexuals regret something, by the way?
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Salamandre
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posted April 03, 2023 10:26 PM |
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Your logic is build upon religious precepts from really long time ago, but not on their applications in modern times, and here is the difference. Is like saying "women didn't have same rights as men in Occident, they don't have same rights in Arabic countries thus Occident and Arabic countries HAVE same flaws, they are build upon misogyny and patriarchy foundations, so they ARE SAME in my book". Ok, but that is true and false at the same time, if you consider the timeline of events, from then to now.
The difference between Christianity and Islam is that Christianity always strive to conciliate reason with faith, where Islam concealed any reasoning not backed by faith.
There is not a single christian country in the world where sexual minorities are being criminalized, but there are a dozen of Islamic theocracies where those minorities are either sentenced to death or "at best" thrown in prison for life.
I don't even understand why you keep doing useless circles around by digging only anecdotal evidence, without any serious echo in the public opinion, not even speaking about laws.
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Ghost
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posted April 03, 2023 10:31 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
Tell that the Christian hate groups. Why would homosexuals regret something, by the way?
I know..
But the Bible:
1 Corinthians 6:9-11
English Standard Version
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
Colossians 3:9-10
English Standard Version
9 Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old with its practices 10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator.
One anonymous JW is homosexual, but never did.. I heared! IDK who.. He wrote a story to JW.. and JW published their magazine..
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artu
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posted April 03, 2023 11:18 PM |
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@JJ
Notice how I framed things, "an AVERAGE conservative Christian organization TODAY " versus "an average Islamist organization (today obviously implied)." If you want to compare canonical text, I still think Islamic theology is less flexible and you need more far fetched interpretations to squeeze out a conformation for secular law from it. But that is beside the point, because you asked about the difference between the organizations, not theological interpretations. Hypothetically, a moderate Muslim can say "the hadith (Muhammed quotes) is not holy, according to Islam, the only conclusive source is Quran and the prophet is nothing but a messenger, not the son of God." Similarly, a moderate Christian can claim that the New Testament nullified the Old Testament or he can simply use "thou shall not kill" as the joker card etc. They can both find ways to interpret their religion as gay-friendly. But we are talking within a social context here, what is their social gravitas, their political leverage, their correspondance in mainstream culture. And in this regard, there is a significant gap. If leftist politics in France overlap with Islamist agenda, that is a serious problem, one you cant dismiss by saying "Islamist organizations, Christian ones, they are all the same." They are not, in terms of how radical they are, how much support they have from your average "yeah sure, I am religious" type of person. The symmetry you propose is unproportional regarding social trends.
@Sal
That is not accurate either, if you use Islam and Christianity as civilizational terms, both had schools of thought trying to synthesize faith and reason. Both used variants of Neoplatonism to do that, Islamic philosophers even inspired scholastics like Thomas Aquinas back in the day, further than that, you had philosopers like Ibn Khaldun who even objected to Neoplatonic ones like Al-Ghazali, he was practically a materialist, he is even considered the first sociologist by some historians. But of course, these have nothing to do with the Quran or the Bible or Muslim Brotherhood or Westboro Baptist Church. In this regard, the problem is, today, the Muslim world still refers to Ibn Khaldun as "Islamic philosopher" when in fact he was a philosopher from the Islamic cultural sphere. Where as, the Christian world learned not to define (frame) Kant as "Christian philosopher." Whether he is Christian or not had nothing to do with what made Kant, Kant or what made Newton, Newton. To realize that, you need a secularized mind set and Europe achieved that.
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Salamandre
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posted April 03, 2023 11:39 PM |
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But that was what I implied, without developing as it was beside the main point. When you try to accommodate reason with faith, it ends by limited religious influence and this is the starting point of separating religious power from state power, broadly defined as secularism.
And, if the West - unlike Islam - doesn't define its thinkers as "Christians", that is because of the two pillars of Western thought: the reverence for a transcendent god originating in Christian tradition, and the use of human reason whose origins are traced to Antique Greece.
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