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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: Elementals on the adventure map
Thread: Elementals on the adventure map
phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted August 01, 2023 02:59 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 14:10, 02 Aug 2023.

Elementals on the adventure map

Conflux as we all know has some weird design choices and bugs.
The way elementals are treated on the map was corrected by HotA.
Water/Ice Elementals were treated as level 4 units.
Fire/Energy Elementals were treated as level 5 units.
Earth/Magma Elementals were only treated as level 3 units.
I can agree with HotA correcting their levels, but now let us take a look at their numbers on the adventure map:

Air Elementals: 8-12 (Low numbers because they are quite powerful for a level 2 unit I guess.)
Storm Elementals: 6-12 (Low numbers because they are quite powerful for a level 2 unit I guess.)

Water ELementals: 12-25 (Like other downgraded level 3 units.)
Ice Elementals: 12-20 (Like other upgraded level 3 units.)

Fire Elementals: 10-20 (Like other downgraded level 4 units.)
Energy Elementals: 10-16 (Like other upgraded level 4 units.)

Earth Elementals: 16-30 (Very high numbers and even more than Fire Elementals.)
Magma Elementals: 16-25 (Very high numbers and even more than Energy Elementals.)

As we can see level 3 and 4 units have "normal" numbers, level 2 are very low and level 5 are very high.
Do you think their numbers were intentional or could there perhaps be some bugs here relating to the elementals being treated as the wrong level? I mean should the Earth/Magma Elementals have been lower in numbers for example?

I guess it is kinda weird, because all elementals are about equally strong, yet original developers tried to push them in to level 2-5 at Conflux...          

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Hourglass
Hourglass


Famous Hero
posted August 01, 2023 08:08 PM

Not sure if I understand the question exactly, but I don't think the numbers should be corrected further than they're now in Hota. I think the unit levels should reflect the power of the unit at least somewhat equally when placed by human in map editor or when placed by computer when making a random map. Storm elementals are really pesky early on, and I rather don't want to mess with either in the early game, as they're pretty nasty by themselves, but there's also the change that you're suddenly against an upgraded stack anyway. So even for now, they're quite threat.

For earth and magma elementals, well, they're the opposite end of things; they're really slow, and do not by any means can be compared to actual lvl 5 creatures. That's why even when fighting for the unit dwelling, there are more creatures guarding them you typically meet in the dwellings. I mean, battles against these are one the most favorable fights in the game, I think it totally makes sense that their numbers are increased when being placed on the map.

Earth elemental dwelling (and the elemental conflux) are one the most cheesable dwellings in the whole game. The earth elementals happen to weak against air, making them vulnerable against tier 2 troops. With very slow speed and no possibility for morale, the player can rack the dwellings with 6 pixies and air ellie stack, or if you happen to have storm elementals, the fight becomes literally free.

When talking about the elementals as summon spells, their usefulness pretty much ranks like this: earth>fire>air=water
Earth simply has the best stats, and as you would use the spell multiple times in a row anyway, the speed is really not that big of an issue. Earth elementals are also immune against arma and lightning spells.
Fire then again has also better stats than the rest of the elementals, while still having immunity against arma and also against magic arrow.
Then the competition between air and water is slightly more debatable, usually the air is generally stronger magic school, so that's why air sees slightly more play, and it's also the fastest elemental, being able to cross the battlefield in two turns. Water elementals just completely lack identity and they don't have interesting resistances, either.

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Phoenix4ever
Phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted August 01, 2023 08:38 PM

Nice answer Hourglass.
I think I was mostly referring to their actual numbers on the map and perhaps mostly the Earth and Magma Elementals, because they come in very high numbers. But I guess it makes sense since they are really poor as level 5 units.
Earth Elementals are pretty garbage, but Magma Elementals get +2 speed and +2 damage and more, so they could potentially be dangerous fighting in high numbers or you might need spells like Slow, Quicksand or Meteor Shower to take them down.
But are they really that bad when you compare them to dendroids for example?, they have only 3 or 4 speed. (They also get extra growth in towns, just like dendroids.)

Regarding the summons I pretty much agree, though I like Fire Elementals a bit more than Earth mostly due to their speed.

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Hourglass
Hourglass


Famous Hero
posted August 01, 2023 09:34 PM

Phoenix4ever said:
Nice answer Hourglass.
Earth Elementals are pretty garbage, but Magma Elementals get +2 speed and +2 damage and more, so they could potentially be dangerous fighting in high numbers or you might need spells like Slow, Quicksand or Meteor Shower to take them down.
But are they really that bad when you compare them to dendroids for example?, they have only 3 or 4 speed. (They also get extra growth in towns, just like dendroids.)

Well, the upgrade for earth elementals is indeed a worthy one, but when compared to dendoirds, I think we're still talking about two pretty similar creatures, at least difficulty-wise. These two are basically the duo you would most likely meet - when comparing to the rest of the lvl 5 creatures, we can see that "the average" tier 5 roll would usually cause more problems for the player.

It's likely that the more numerous magma elemental fight is more dangerous than a fight against dendroid soldiers, although the lack for morale proc makes the fight kinda predictable, which cannot be said about the trees and their ability to root. But when compared to the rest of the same level creatures, I don't see very good reason why there should be a need for change.

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Phoenix4ever
Phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted August 01, 2023 09:52 PM

No you are probably right, I was just asking.

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MurlocAggroB
MurlocAggroB


Hired Hero
posted August 05, 2023 05:16 PM

Well, the elementals were all tier 4 creatures in RoE. They couldn't change any of their stats, otherwise it might mess with maps created in RoE that used elementals as guardians. That's why Conflux has weird power scaling.

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