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| Thread: What if there were a Slow-related secondary skill? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Hourglass
Supreme Hero
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posted August 21, 2023 02:38 PM |
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Poll Question:
What if there were a Slow-related secondary skill?
Imagine the following situation:
Slow, and only Slow gets taken out of the school of Earth magic. Instead of being part of any other traditional Magic school either, it instead gets it's "own" school of magic. For the context of this thread, let's call this new skill Sluggish. Now, the Sluggish skill would scale exactly as Earth magic's Slow scales now in SoD environment, so at expert level, you would be able to cast mass Slow as effective as ever. There would be no additional benefits (or downsides) of taking the perk - it's simply a Slow-related secondary skill. Let's expect that the chances of learning the skill would be comparable to Earth magic as it's now.
How would you rate such skill?
Would there be certain towns/heroes/etc that would be more interested in the skill than others?
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted August 21, 2023 03:09 PM |
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Hmm quite hard to say how good this skill would be, of course Mass Slow is great, but I find some towns rely more on it than others and it also depends on what enemy creatures you are facing.
I voted decent, but you would still need Earth Magic for Town Portal, Resurrection and maybe Shield, Stone Skin etc.
So it does'nt really solve the problem with Earth Magic being OP...
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Star_mage
Hired Hero
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posted August 21, 2023 03:28 PM |
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Heroes 3 becomes repetitive at some point.
Just as someone else recently pointed out, in early game you pick the same heroes, same skills, and mid-game to late-game you use the same spells.
I might be wrong, but i think that turning Slow into a skill, might contribute to this situation, because people will either pick it or not.
What I think that would reverse this situation is to give each spell school a smilar spell with more or less efficiency.
For example:
Air Magic School
Strong winds - single target - small slow effect + miss chance
Water Magic School
Swamp land - AOE effect on ground - medium slow effect
Fire Magic School
Lava ground - AOE effect on ground - small slow effect + damage over time
Earth Magic School
Traditional slow
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted August 21, 2023 03:34 PM |
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There are way too many secondary skills, to have one just for Slow would crowd it even more. Plus, might heroes get magic schools often because of exceptions, if this one was as rare as Mysticism or Eagle Eye for might heroes most of the times they wouldn't get it.
I'm pretty sure it would greatly screw things for AI.
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Hourglass
Supreme Hero
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posted August 21, 2023 04:52 PM |
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phoenix4ever said:
So it does'nt really solve the problem with Earth Magic being OP...
bloodsucker said:
There are way too many secondary skills, to have one just for Slow would crowd it even more.
I understand this and agree, but I need to add that this wasn't a balance suggestion.
I'm just being curious how good such skill would be. For me, this is kinda tricky question, because I feel Slow is the main reason why Earth is such dominating skill, due it being available so early on in the game and everything.
On paper, such skill would be quite silly concept because it would only care about Slow. However, since Slow is actually among the best spells in the game, and there's a night and day difference between basic and expert slow, it got me interested if such skill would still be viable.
Basically what I'm trying to ask is despite such skill being very limited and niche, could the skill still be good?
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted August 21, 2023 05:24 PM |
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Easiest pair of heroes, and then zounds Dragon Flies, hero uses only Vampire Lords due to fast Dragon Flies.. Troops pattern! So not only Slow.. Yes only Animate Dead and Resurrection are enough well.. I don't understand where/what you are playing a map requires Slow.. In WoG, Slow isn't possible.. Play it, and you develop at GM Tactics.. And you go to vanilla back, and you see an easy game.. Heroes 4? How? Yup you can't play Heroes 4.. Thus Slow.. Yes in there more OP than Slow.. Don't take a experience point, when other monsters are alternative too, and later on you can attack to difficulty monsters.. Because your troops are increased OP.. If opponent doesn't come yet, and you get a little bit more experience of the monsters.. But a). Swarm Elves b). Legion Gnolls c). Lots Dread knights.. First an easy, and then Haste, Forgetfulness or Prayer against Elves, what I think you've a difficulty it.. Ok Hexis (is from WoW, and he) can attack 5x Lots Unicorns, etc (by WoW creatures).. Cheat! An easy strategy.. Ok I don't really understand your post, but Slow matter, so I reply.. OP needed expansion or WoG.. Not HotA..
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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thecastrated
Famous Hero
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posted August 21, 2023 05:48 PM |
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does haste expert still override exp slow?
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted August 21, 2023 05:54 PM |
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Remember you are playing a WoG, and you go to RoE campaign, your score is over 2000, right? RoE and Slow yet? I think mouth gaping, if you watch a showing..
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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heymlich
Famous Hero
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posted August 21, 2023 11:54 PM |
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Totally depends on your faction. For Tower it would be mandatory. For Rampart it would be pointless.
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zaio-baio
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted August 22, 2023 01:16 AM |
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I think the best solution is to move "Slow" spell to level 4 mage guild. This way it will remain the same, but it will not break the balance, because you will get it later in the game, when players have easy time vs neutral monsters anyway.
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted August 22, 2023 01:37 AM |
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Please, AI needs Slow bellow level 2. Most of the times might heroes never get Wisdom but if they have Air or Earth and the respective spell they can still be effective. I think your idea is worst for AI then have a special SS just for Slow, if you give it a very high chance for all classes.
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Phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted August 22, 2023 07:38 AM |
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Perhaps the problem is sometimes AI does'nt get Wisdom and is very slow at building up Mage Guilds.
If all heroes started with Wisdom, AI would probably be a lot more challenging.
Since Prayer is level 4, Slow and Haste could easily have been level 3. (Not level 4 cause then Stronghold and Fortress can't learn them.)
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted August 22, 2023 11:28 AM |
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If Slow and Haste to level 1, and Mass Slow and Haste to level 4. I agree with you! When H4.. Ok H2 you also find it..
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted August 22, 2023 01:01 PM |
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I don't get the point of this conversation... Most of you I know are single players, are you trying to make AI weaker? Cause me, I know I will fulfill the requisites. AI? Only if you also code that.
I've came to believe AI not only doesn't recognize assemblable artifacts but also doesn't "know" about Gelu and Dracon specialties... How many times have you seen them with their creatures instead of the ones they could upgrade? Only if the mapmaker already gave them a bunch, but the others will still be there.
One should improve the game, not snow on it for the sake of novelty.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted August 22, 2023 02:12 PM |
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In order to put a challenge, AI needs further coding and that is achievable only in Wog, that's it. Original coding implies a chain of priorities, like shield first, so if you wanted to avoid AI blind your archers, all you had to do is casting dispel every turn, and reset AI to casting shield again. Such exploits can be seen in walkthroughs of very tricky chinese maps, so it's predictable once you watched a few.
With Wog you can just apply shield by default, so AI starts to cast offensive spells first. There is no other way, sorry. Or recode the mechanics, good luck with that.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted August 22, 2023 02:24 PM |
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@ are you trying to make AI weaker?
My working is end, thus Human AI MOD and Difficulty MOD in WoG. I'm playing them, I familiared AIs, they've level 5 Wisdom, but not always Earth.. When dead or allies heroes, I watched their SS.. I noticed AIs built liaison SS mean some is walking around fast, some is mastered AIR, and rarely seen main heroes, but all visited town, where are spells. A bit useless AI bonuses are Slow, Cure, Dispel, etc, when AIs visited in towns.. The same SoD, but more effect. Always 8 heroes, and all more PS and troops than human player.. Ok?  then bug fixes are more important, thus AI stay at town with legion is sucking game.. So you can see how is impossible  But thanks who made MODs..
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted August 22, 2023 04:06 PM |
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@Bloodsucker
Phoenix4ever said:
If all heroes started with Wisdom, AI would probably be a lot more challenging.
Does this sound like a proposal to make AI weaker to you?
I just bought AI's fallen level 20 Rissa from a tavern.
She had Mysticism, Offense, Logistics, Ballistics, Estates, Earth Magic, Armorer and Learning in that order.
All skills were at Expert, except Learning which was only Advanced.
So no Wisdom.
Earth Magic and Mysticism, maybe even Learning could have benefitted from Wisdom and she might have learned spells from heroes with Scholar, but AI failed by not picking Wisdom.
I believe this happens a lot with AI's might heroes.
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heymlich
Famous Hero
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posted August 22, 2023 04:21 PM |
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Ghost said:
If Slow and Haste to level 1, and Mass Slow and Haste to level 4. I agree with you! When H4.. Ok H2 you also find it..
Yes! I understood and I agree 
H2 already had the solution. Matters regarding the AI are just that and have nothing to do with the general issue.
I also think it is perfectly fine when might heoes don't have easy access to all mass spells.
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted August 23, 2023 06:03 AM |
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phoenix4ever said:
Does this sound like a proposal to make AI weaker to you?
Nope, but it has a problem.
Let's look at Shakti, for instance, from Offense & Tactics witch one is going to be removed? If none, then might heroes start with 6 primary skills instead of 5 and three SSs instead of two?
Not that I ever start with a magic hero but now I want one of these.
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Phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted August 23, 2023 07:56 AM |
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I don't want to remove any might heroes skills, Wisdom should be an addition.
If we don't want 3 starting skills, AI could instead have increased it's algorithm towards Wisdom, so it does'nt end up without it so often.
Magic heroes could have started with a magic school, especially heroes with a poor spell specialty like Zubin, Coronius, Melodia, Olema and Mirlanda.
8 skills always felt like too few with 28 skills available, that's why I would like 10 or 12 instead or at the very least a possibility to remove unwanted skills.
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