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| Thread: Let's Design: Armageddon specialist |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · «PREV |
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heymlich
Famous Hero
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posted December 05, 2023 07:39 AM |
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Edited by heymlich at 07:44, 05 Dec 2023.
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bloodsucker said:
Now, in SoD Inferno is almost unplayable on even map.
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This town needs a super buff.
I feel the same. If thing's don't go well with Inferno I often take chances go for mage guild lvl 4 instead of devils and hope for Armageddon.
Still, a hero with Armageddon as starting spell would be too OP. Just get your tier 6 unit and kill everything. Also get a scholar.
I think, originally Inferno is meant for demon farming. For that reason Inferno heroes have a high chance to acquire diplomacy, providing them with lots of fodder. In my opinion, the reason why Inferno is so weak is the ban of diplomacy.
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Phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted December 05, 2023 08:18 AM |
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Well there is one way HotA nerfed Inferno, by nerfing Logistics. Demoniac is the class with the highest chance of learning Logistics, but Logistics is not that good in HotA.
Arch Devils are still very fast and have no retaliation and ruin enemys luck. They are a tactical unit.
Also they can do a ton of damage with Frenzy and can easily be brought back through Sacrifice.
What about Fortress in SoD, with the Armorer/Air Shield bug, they took even more damage in sieges, than they would without Armorer. So yeah Fortress and Armorer were not great in SoD either...
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heymlich
Famous Hero
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posted December 05, 2023 10:06 AM |
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Fortress is much better in SoD. The reason is, Inferno has a very tough early game, while Fortress has Wyvern day 1-2.
As for the armorer bug, it's a bug and can be fixed.
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Phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted December 05, 2023 11:36 AM |
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heymlich said:
As for the armorer bug, it's a bug and can be fixed.
It can, but it was'nt, at least not by original developers.
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phe
Famous Hero
Life and Freedom
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posted December 05, 2023 11:40 AM |
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Starts with Wisdom, Sorcery and Armageddon in speel book, every level=chance to cast it second time in round...
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heymlich
Famous Hero
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posted December 05, 2023 12:41 PM |
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phe said:
Starts with Wisdom, Sorcery and Armageddon in speel book, every level=chance to cast it second time in round...
Why not just cast it at the start of each fight (for free) 
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LordCameron
Known Hero
Veteran of the Succession Wars
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posted December 05, 2023 05:15 PM |
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One of the big problems with trying to buff Inferno with this speciality is that anyone can still hire the hero.
Therefore: Whenever the hero visits an inferno mage guild, all spells in their spell book turn into inferno.
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Star_mage
Hired Hero
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posted December 07, 2023 08:40 PM |
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1) What town and which class could have gotten Armageddon specialty?
I feel like this should be exclusively attributed to a Heretic (because it s the magic class) from Inferno, because the Kreegans are notorious for ending planets throughout the universe. So they should be specialized in this.
Dungeon is a much much smaller villains than Inferno and Necropolis, they are mere peons. Conflux could be as well because the Fire Elementals on the higher ladders of the hierarchy could be strong enough to perform such a spell, but the scope of the faction simply isnt aligned with that of the spell's.
Rampart is out of question (for me), although Fire Druids make sense - Forest Fires are a natural cycle of Nature and the Druids CAN learn to embrace it and control it.
2) Could this hero be put on a regular hero roster (available for every game) or should it be for campaign purposes only?
I feel like all heroes should be available for every game. This game is so old that every feature should be used as a default.
And I have something to share with you:
First of all, sorry to the modder (i dont know who you are) for using this as an example.
I played VCMI the other day and I discovered an intriguing artifact, I think it was a ring. Besides the main attribute which i can't remember what it was, the ring also decreased your knowledge by 1 or 2.
And I realized that we, as a community, do not think that we deserve a feature (artifact) without having downsides. We are so fixed in the old ways and do not embrace new features that we do not even have respectful conversations.
The use of the slot is not enough of a downside, we also need to decrease the knowledge (my hero had 2 knowledge in the first week of the game) which rendered the artifact almost useless because i could not cast any spell with 0 mana.
You could say that there are artifacts that decrease primary skills and the modder tried to keep a tradition alive, but they provide 10 points!!
You could say that it s a matter of balance, but it s not! A PROPER balance would be to split mass haste/slow into two different spells..
...not to decrease the knowledge by 2 with a common ring.
This thing, right here, shows the mentality of the community. Sorry, not sorry.
3) Would it be overpowered, good, average, or perhaps even a poor ability to be had? Where it would be at it's strongest/weakest?
It would be a challenge to play against, of course. But that's not an issue at all. Resistance skill and artifacts would be more valuable to pick against such a hero. Anti-Magic spell, Fire Protection (- one of the Useless Spells) would become more useful.
Fire Magic skill would also become more valuable for the person who picks the Armageddon Specialist.
Conflux and Inferno creatures would become more valuable.
There's a lot of things that this hero would turn upside down, but, again, that s a good thing because:
- re-balancing should be made via patches. Players should test the hero and provide feedback and the developers can make the proper tweaks
- the hero rooster would have a 'modern' thing called: Hero Rotation regarding Buffs and Nerfs. Some heroes would obviously be buffed in order to face the armageddon specialist
- this would make the game alive and pulsating with Hero Rotation. You don't even need new castles/factions.
Too bad that this community is resistant to changes (and even discussions).
4) Magic heroes tend to have Wisdom (or Necromancy) as their starting secondary skill, but what would been the other skill?
This should be tested, by the players, but ofc that magic heroes should have other starting secondary skill. Let's pick other skills and let's test it out!
Unfortunately, I would remove Wisdom altogether. It's useless anyway because mass slow/haste (the game breakers) are achievable by a might hero without wisdom.
5) What hero should it replace, or is replacing necessary?
No replacing necessary.
Now, hit me with stones. I dare you!
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heymlich
Famous Hero
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posted December 08, 2023 02:37 PM |
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Star_mage said:
Now, hit me with stones. I dare you!
Sorry, I'm too lazy ... 
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Hourglass
Supreme Hero
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posted December 08, 2023 11:36 PM |
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Star_mage said:
1) What town and which class could have gotten Armageddon specialty?
I feel like this should be exclusively attributed to a Heretic (because it s the magic class) from Inferno, because the Kreegans are notorious for ending planets throughout the universe. So they should be specialized in this.
I agree. I think Arma specialist would make most sense in the Inferno roster for thematical and gameplay reasons.
I'm pretty sure Arma specialist wouldn't be "too op" or anything like that. Many towns have thing that make them having unfair advantages, but Inferno, often seen as the worst town in the game, really lacks things like this that could really spice up their gameplay. It should also note here that Heretic, in my opinion, are the worst hero class in the game.
Let's theorycraft a bit:
Base Armageddon is pretty expensive spell (24 mana), and Heretics do start with only 1 Knowledge.
Obviously, you would want to get Efreets pretty quickly, but it's likely that there isn't a reason to rush them, just build the Fire lake by the end of the first week. You need more mana on the hero, and it's likely that the player would need recharge it's mana in town, that's why I don't believe there's much reason to hesitate. In other words, the starting week would play out pretty much in the normal way anyway. At best, I believe you could cast Arma once during the first week, and even then I don't really see the player conquering any major objectives.
In the mid game you would still be struggling with mana, as something like 70 mana is still only enough to cast the spell twice, except if you did find Fire magic, which would be super convinient. However, that could also be somewhat a burden, as simple arma-strats won't get you too far, so having a need for Fire can also turn out to be just another requirement.
In the late game you can probably burn down everything, but by then, I would need to ask if there really aren't anything that could have already have similar outcome? For example, normal Ressurrection tactics?
So, to put some things together:
+ Starts with one of the most powerful spells in the game.
+ Exellent synergy with Efreet, can do certain fights with no losses.
+ Can have really good tempo.
+ Has a power that scales well even for late game
- High mana cost of Armageddon stops the player from using the spell whenever they will.
- Uses the combination of worst town + worst hero type.
- Fights againts neutrals that require your other troops cannot really utilize Armageddon
- Vulnerable for miscalculations and human error.
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thecastrated
Famous Hero
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posted December 09, 2023 08:01 AM |
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Inferno is worse than fortress and rampart?
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heymlich
Famous Hero
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posted December 09, 2023 03:25 PM |
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thecastrated said:
Inferno is worse than fortress and rampart?
Definitely.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted December 09, 2023 03:32 PM |
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Edited by Ghost at 15:50, 09 Dec 2023.
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Because of some can't play well.. Castle is easiest playable, for example.. The same matter in chess openings.. Stronger player can play different chess openings.. Why? They're forced to learn different openings.. But not HoMM players.. Inferno is a very good..
EDIT
An example of 1. g3 in chess opening, when you think a poor, but opponent moves 1. g3, and you don't know how to build a opening, you lose the game. If you learned 1. g3 opening well, so you win, but if opponent's favourite 1. g3 game, thus opponent played so many times.. Tricky! Thus you must to know Inferno in your random town or opponent's favourite Inferno..
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/King%27s_Fianchetto_Opening
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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heymlich
Famous Hero
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posted December 09, 2023 04:02 PM |
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Edited by heymlich at 16:09, 09 Dec 2023.
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But there are players that know how to play fortress or rampart, too. Against them, the player who knows how to play inferno will still lose
To say it in your chess-language. 1. g3 might be playable, but it is not your best option. It is a move that allows you to react according to the situation. However, white should dictate, not react.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted December 09, 2023 04:18 PM |
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Only I said metaphor.. I'm chess player, and you find my games from chessbase.. Today I'm not in chess club.. I stopped 1996.. And I played still at home.. And remember if random gives you Inferno, and opponent too.. Other thing, Inferno Lexiav won the game in MP, 8 players.. What would happen if Lexiav is other alliance, and you're Inferno..
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted December 09, 2023 08:18 PM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 20:22, 09 Dec 2023.
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He/She could easily start with Armageddon. Armageddon only deals 30 base damage. As long as the specialty works in a proportional way to leveling, it would be fine. (like, 1% extra damage per level after the first, but bonus only applied to non-lvl7 creatures)
He/She could be like Xyron that although he starts with Inferno, he only has a single Knowledge. So, he cannot even cast Inferno.
The Arma specialist should not have enough knowledge to cast it in first level. They should also have no more than 1 spell power. Also not Dungeon or Tower faction since those boost mana.
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Never changing = never improving
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