| So Israel is now a fascist country |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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JollyJoker
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posted September 23, 2026 11:30 PM |
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So Israel is now a fascist country
Committing genocide for "Lebensraum"? Check.
Pretty tough pill to swallow, isn't it? Add to that the fact that it was Israel to start the Iran war, forcing Trump's hand, and, well, wtf?
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Salamandre
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posted September 24, 2026 07:10 AM |
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"Now" ?
It's been 80 years of constant UN resolutions condemning it for war crimes, apartheid, torture, illegal blockade and so. Only got away because the US veto, again and again. The US rules the world, we are satellites.
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JollyJoker
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posted September 24, 2026 10:11 AM |
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Takes a bit more than that to be a fascist country, since we need "room" for other phrases like, say, "covertly imperialistic" which you might call Israel's settling policies over a longer period of time.
Likewise, I'd think that every country being a belligerent in a war will have committed this or that "war crime". That's in the nature of things, since "war" is kind of a legalized and systematic criminal behaviour which means, boundaries are pretty fluid and a question of definition. For example, when in a war - what would be wrong with torture? After all, if a firefight produces wounded soldiers, isn't that involuntary torture then, as general part of every war? In other words, a war is a big crime consisting of lots of small ones to end it.
That's not enough to make you a "fascist" country, otherwise Britain and France would have been fascist as well, for example. But being openly imperialistic and committing genocide in the course of it? Hell, yes. "Let's once and for all kill those subhumans, seize their lands and settle and cultivate it" - that sounds awfully familiar, let's say not unlike Italy and the Libyan genocide in the 1930s.
And the inept attack on Iran? Yet more Italy, this time attacking Greece in 1940. Only this time the Führer isn't committing actual troops to resolve the stalemate. We may see that, yet, considering the US are a de-facto (as opposed to de-jure: the courts are still resisiting) fascist country led by a supremacist elite with a deranged figurehead, who has obviously dementia, since he cannot differentiate anymore between dream and reality, which is a logical explanation why he would talk about him having ended eight wars: he dreamt it, probably after an especially satisfying Big Mac, and when he woke up it was a fact. Explains a lot.
Anyway, with the midterms looming skyhigh for the Reps now and time is running out, we may still see desperate measures to end the fiasco one way or another, but the trouble is, of course, that the orange Führer cannot end it with something smelling like pussing out doggy-style, while the Iranian "leadership" is prepared to let him suffer and humiliate himin the course of it, Near-East-style.
But, hey, that was obvious from the get-go, I've said it a thousand times and there is the other thread about the Don.
Anyway,The Hague got it right - but who's supporting them? 
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bloodsucker
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posted September 24, 2026 12:46 PM |
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You are just arguing for the sake of arguing, right? Cause what he's saying is objectively true and you're debating definitions.
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Geny
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posted September 24, 2026 05:37 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
So Israel is now a fascist country
Sorry, I haven't been following the latest UN summit too closely. Who said what that made you come to this conclusion now?
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purerogue3
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posted September 24, 2026 05:56 PM |
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JollyJoker
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posted September 24, 2026 06:07 PM |
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Look, on one hand everyone and their dog is complaining when people throw around the f-word, ask for definitions and balk before it - and when someone does make a differentiation and says a country has crossed the line the same people complain about not labelling the country earlier?
As much as I'm concerned, for a country to be "fascist" there must be a a contemptuousness against one or another peoples, races, groupings and so on, that manifests itself in illegal treatment (that is, these people aren't allowed the same rights than the "regular" people) up to killing them should they become too bothersome or should they be perceived as detrimental to the good of the "regular" people (by those in power).
In short, there have to be at least two (in practise three) classes of people: the subhumans, the regular people and the elites.
In case of Israel, the Palestinians are the subhumans. And while Israel has never been fussy in their treatment of them and others like the Libanese, they also didn't exactly pull off a genocide up to now or try to actively neutralize whole countries and governments.
In case of the US, yes, there always have been a RACIST undercurrent - but the way ICE is treating immigrants is definitely fascist because they are treated like cattle and it doesn't seem to matter when now and then someone is killed - or whether the immigrants are indeed illegals.
Israel itself ... well. You have to accept historical fait accomplis in the course or aftermath of wars; if you don't, it will lead to new wars (like we have seen in that area) and each war will make things more complicated. There are so many areas that changed their owner countries in the last century alone.
So I'm not anti-Israel or anything. But the current government is pretty atrocious.
And what sparked this post is Israel's outraged indignation if someone dares to mention Gaza. Israel isn't the victim anymore.
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purerogue3
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posted September 24, 2026 06:34 PM |
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so it bothers you that they are fascist, but not necessarily racists?
(do i sound like a CNN reporter?  )
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JollyJoker
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posted September 24, 2026 07:03 PM |
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No, you sound nonsensical.
I didn't say anything abouth "bothering" at all.
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Ghost
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Therefore I am
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posted September 24, 2026 07:04 PM |
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I disagree with fascist, but I think evil and fanatic Israel.. I also like between dislike Israel..
1800 years without country, but 1948.. You know the US supports Israeli army.. I like jaffa orange.. When 1984 Israel got 1000% inflation, but the US gave money..
Israel and Arab.. When 2500 years never been state, thus Assyrians took Israel in 722 bce.. And jews vs Romans, so since 1800 years of homeless..
It before the God commanded Israeli people takes Palestine.. You can read the Bible.. But the God isn't existence, thus evil and fanatic..
I've a widow's mite coin.. I like Israel.. But in the brain is maximum stupid..
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Geny
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posted September 24, 2026 07:50 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
And what sparked this post is Israel's outraged indignation if someone dares to mention Gaza. Israel isn't the victim anymore.
The Board of Peace mentions Gaza now and then and Israel doesn't seem to respond with "outraged indignation".
Sorry. That was a bit too close to trolling. Though there is a bit of point to it. There is a certain expectation that people who talk about Gaza know what they're talking about. Which is far from always the case. For an example, albeit, not of Gaza but of the West Bank, see Macron's latest claim that Hamas never operated in the West Bank. That is pure and easily debunked ignorance. Heck, even the Palestinian Authority made waves of arrests against Hamas operators in the West Bank.
But I digress. More to the point, if I read you posts correctly, you claim that Israel is now a fascist state because of its genocide in Gaza and because of its occupation of foreign lands. Let's try and break those down.
Genocide - contrary to what many claim, the Hague at no point indicated that Israel commits genocide. It claimed that Gazans have rights to be protected and that the Hague has jurisdiction and cause to judge on the matter. It has also indicated certain provisional measures to be upheld by Israel in the meantime. I personally do not think that the war in Gaza amounts to genocide, because I believe that if you look at the facts and the numbers, rather than the speeches of some Israeli politicians, then it is reasonable to say there is no intent to wipe out Gazans as a whole or a large portion of them.
Occupation - at one point or another in Israel's history, it occupied the land of all its neighbors: Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon. Let's see what happened in those cases and try and draw parallels to current situations.
Egypt - Israel has occupied the Gaza strip and the Sinai peninsula. It has conquered them as part of a series of wars started by the Arab nations. When peace became an option, Israel immediately agreed to give back all occupied land. Egypt took back Sinai, but didn't want to take responsibility for the Gaza strip again. Ever since them, no Israeli soldier crossed the border to Egypt.
Jordan - Israel has occupied the West Bank, including East Jerusalem. It has conquered them as part of a series of wars started by the Arab nations. Subsequently, Jordan relinquished any claims for those territories. Eventually, a peace treaty between Israel and Jordan was signed and since then no Israeli soldier step foot in Jordan.
Syria - Israel has occupied the Golan Heights. It is hard to say whether Israel would have returned such a militarily crucial landmark as part of a peace process. It is also, somewhat irrelevant because no such process ever began. But seeing the examples of Egypt and Jordan, it is at least not out of the question that Israel would agree to give the Golan Heights back as part of a peace deal.
What happens now in Syria? After the recent regime change, Israel occupied more of Syrian territory, claiming that it does so to make sure that previous arrangements hold and that no harm comes to the Druze population of Syria. While it is indeed and aggressive move, the concerns are valid as has been seen during the fighting in Druze villages. It is also important to note that no settlers are moving in to these newly occupied territories, so for now this does not seem to an "imperialistic" move.
Lebanon - Israel has occupied parts of south Lebanon for many years, as part of its attempt to deal with attacks from PLO fighters in Lebanon. During all that time no attempts to settle the land with Israelis have been made and eventually Israel withdrew on its own accord.
What happens now in Lebanon? Israel has occupied parts of south Lebanon, as part of its attempt to deal with attacks from Hezbollah fighters in Lebanon and disarm. Conversely, The result that Israel strives for is in accordance with both a UN resolution and the decision of the Lebanese government, although these decisions are of course not the reason for Israeli actions. As of now, and similarly to the previous occupation, no attempts to settle the land with Israelis have been made.
As for Gaza - Israel is holding partial occupation of the Gaza Strip until Hamas disarms, in accordance with the ceasefire roadmap agreed upon last year.
So, I do not see how Israel is imperialist either.
I will say this, however. There are some people in the Israeli government who... shall we say, have fascist tendencies. Both towards Palestinians and towards the Israeli institutions, such as the High Court and the police. As of now, the checks and balances of democracy keep them mostly in check. But if Israel doesn't swivel hard during the upcoming elections, it will probably lose the ability to swing at all. And then we're all in deep snow. But here's the thing, if the the world focuses only on isolating Israel, it will get a fascist Israel eventually. If the world shows that it also knows how to support Israel when the right people are in charge, then there is a chance to stop its radicalization.
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purerogue3
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posted September 24, 2026 08:11 PM |
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Geny said:
you claim that Israel is now a fascist state because of its genocide in Gaza and because of its occupation of foreign lands.
It's quite purely democratic.. with genocidal intent
Geny said:
I will say this, however. There are some people in the Israeli government who... shall we say, have fascist tendencies. Both towards Palestinians and towards the Israeli institutions, such as the High Court and the police. As of now, the checks and balances of democracy keep them mostly in check. But if Israel doesn't swivel hard during the upcoming elections, it will probably lose the ability to swing at all. And then we're all in deep snow. But here's the thing, if the the world focuses only on isolating Israel, it will get a fascist Israel eventually. If the world shows that it also knows how to support Israel when the right people are in charge, then there is a chance to stop its radicalization.
you keep going in circles if you use the word 'fascist' because we all know it doesn't mean anything.. that can't be described as racist or totalarian
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JollyJoker
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posted September 24, 2026 08:29 PM |
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I fully understand that you as an Israeli have a problem when others cal Israel now a fascist country - or at least the actual government a fascist one.
That said, ifd you take a look at Gaza: 1.9 out of 2.2 million people have lost their homes there and were herded into "evacuation areas" where they are kept as prisoners by Israel. Doesn't that sound like these so-called "evacuation areas" are "concentration camps?
Israel themselves said AT LEAST 70.000 Palestinians died there since October 2023, sizable part being children and women, missed people not included. That sounds like A LOT of disregard for civilian lifes, doesn't it? If a small group of people does that, it's called terrorism; if it's a counbtry doing that it's called fascist (keep in mind it's not a declared war, since Palestine is no country).
And between October 2025 and May 2026 Israeli soldiers killed roundabout 800 more. Your Secretary of defence said in May, the goal would be to get as many Palestinians as possible to leave Gaza "voluntarily".
Moreover, Israel has detained more than 10.000 people - without charge or trial. That's as fascist as it gets
Then, Israel's Prime Minister is investgated since 2017. There's still not been a full trial. The fact that someone who's investigated because of serious crimes could STILL take on a lasting, leading governmental role doesn't reflect positively on Israel, but is instead damning from a corruption pov - another hallmark of fascism. To repeat, it's not just a couple of people - it's the fact that Israel is led by someone who sould have been trialed long ago.
Israel is facing elections in a month, and the situation is comparable with that in the US. Likud is in danger of losing half of their seats in the Knesset and that might spell bad things for Netanjahu and possibly a couple of others. I'm not sure things will go undisrupted
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if the the world focuses only on isolating Israel, it will get a fascist Israel eventually. If the world shows that it also knows how to support Israel when the right people are in charge, then there is a chance to stop its radicalization.
That is where you are wrong. Israel is led by a fascist government now (and is therefore a fascist country right now) that keeps a people detained and is at war with Iran and Lebanon (at least). The fascist government has been escalating things since 3 years now. THEY are isolating Israel, not the worls - it's your own government! Probably as a tactic to be able to appeal to the Israelis, like, "see, we stand alone, the worls is hating us, wwe must again fight for our existence".
When was the last time, the "right" people were in power in Israel?
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Geny
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posted September 24, 2026 10:18 PM |
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Do the evacuation areas remind me of concentration camps? Not really. In conditions, possibly. But not in essence or intent. The evacuation areas were created to move civilians out of a war zone.(you can call it a military conflict if you find the term 'war' unfitting, it doesn't change much in practice) When the war started, Israel evacuated their own citizens away from the conflict area to protect them. That Israel was the one who had to similarly care (yes, care) for Gazans, because their own leadership would prefer them to die for the cause is very telling and is an important context for all of this.
Yes, at least 70,000 Gazans have died during this conflict. I don't know how sizable the women and children part of it is. Neither do I know how sizable the militant part of it is. Because, conveniently enough, Gazans don't disclose this kind of information. Does this sound like disregard for human life to me? The opposite actually. The vast majority in Gaza is ruins (You could say that this in itself is proof of genocidal intent, but this once again would be disregarding the context of how Gazans fight in an urban area). If there was disregard for human life and if there were no evacuation zones, the casualty number would've crossed a million. You know full well that Israel was militarily capable of that. Instead it is about 3% of the population and that, once again, includes an unknown but not a negligible number of active combatants and their direct supporters. This is what I meant, when I said I believe that the actual numbers don't prove intent. And yes, I know what our Defense Minister and some others in the government have been saying. But their words don't change are not reflected in the IDF's actions.
Israel's Prime Minister isn't just being investigated. He is on trial that has been going on for a very long time. No, that doesn't make me feel better. Yes, I fully believe he shouldn't have been removed from power a long time ago. Yes, I am worried about what else he might do to remain in power. But as I've said, while there is a non-negligible number of people in Israeli government with fascist tendencies and aspirations, as of now they are being kept in check (more or less). They are also constantly complaining about it.
And yes, I fully agree that our current government plays a big part in our isolation. But the "right" people were in power for a brief period of time before this. At least relatively "right". And there is a chance that they will be again by the end of the year. And if the world doesn't seize this opportunity to move things forward and show that Israel isn't ostracized regardless of how it behaves (which has been the case historically), then it will be that much easier for the "wrong" people to come back, saying stuff like "the world will hate us anyway, so it might as well do whatever the hell we want".
P.S. Israel is not at war with Lebanon. And hasn't been for a while.
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artu
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posted September 24, 2026 10:19 PM |
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I saved this article from April and it sums it up quite well about who is doing the isolaiton:
When discussing the geopolitical priorities of Israel there are two fundamental truths that must be acknowledged.
Firstly, the grievances of many people in the region and around the world pertain exclusively to the dispossession, systematic oppression, and inhumane slaughter of the Palestinian people, as well as the persistent interference by Israel in the internal affairs of other nations. Especially a perceived disproportionate influence over US foreign policy.
Secondly, it's also an objective fact that at least some of the hostility towards the existence of Israel, particularly throughout the Islamic world, is fuelled by a demonstrable and unsettling ideologically motivated anti-semitism.
One does not negate the other. Both can be true. Though it remains a point of political conjecture which theme should guide the foreign policy of the Israeli state.
The sincerity with which the Iranian regime are anguished over the slaughter of 60,000 civilians in Gaza can be fairly called into question when they played an active role in the slaughter of 300,000 civilians in Syria.
But equally, the unapologetic indifference of the Israeli government to the suffering of civilians, the persistent genocidal rhetoric being propagated by senior government ministers, and the seemingly indefinite subjugation of the Palestinians in statelessness, has presented to the world the image a rogue state increasingly motivated by its own religious extremism.
The Israeli people alive today have inherited an extraordinary security situation that is unlike any other in the world. The horrors of October 7th would have likely reaffirmed, in the minds of many Israelis, the lessons that they had been taught since they were kids; that removing their foot from the throats of the Palestinian people would only free them to seek revenge against those who held them down for so long.
Few would argue that every Israeli has sincere cause to fear the consequences of a nuclear armed Iran, a fundamentalist theocracy committed to their collective annihilation. But palpable fear is rarely a recipe for pragmatic problem solving.
What has followed has been a high stakes gamble from the man who has set Israeli foreign policy for most of the last 30 years. It was Netanyahu who was instrumental in opposing and ultimately dismantling Obama's nuclear deal, and it has been Netanyahu who pushed Trump into a half chewed war he now desperately wants to spit out.
As much as the world now sees it, the economic calamity inflicted upon every economy on the planet is attributable to the reckless ambitions of one man. Far from apologising, Netanyahu has prioritised chastising anyone who dares question the merits of his plans.
The Iranian regime has not just survived, but is now likely more convinced than ever that a nuclear deterrent is necessary, and that coexistence with Israel is impossible. Netanyahu has not just failed in his objectives, he has made his nation invariably more vulnerable than it may have ever been before.
This has occurred just as the diplomatic influence of Israel's great patron has all but vapourised in Trump's belligerent shadow, liberating previously self-censored observers to condemn the growing list of war crimes as they occur. The sympathetic capital offered by the West in the wake of Hamas' unforgivable attacks has all been spent in pursuit of an ultimate military victory that is impossible for anyone to reasonably articulate.
Even Republican voters, a traditional bastion of unconditional support, are questioning whether Netanyahu has exploited their impressionable President for his own Machiavellian means.
Netanyahu has bet Israel's long-term security on the idea that overwhelming force alone can manage the grievances of its adversaries. Yet with each strategic military victory, the political endgame feels harder to see. Just as the reality of a new lawless world avails itself, and middle powers hurry to find strength in numbers, Netanyahu has pursued ideologically motivated hostility towards a world he insists cannot be trusted.
He has persistently, and perniciously, rejected the reasonable criticisms and concerns expressed by the international community by framing them within the Jewish people's long history of genuine persecution. By doing so, he himself blurs the line between the two, and makes it harder than ever to insist that the scourge of anti-semitism even prevails (and it undoubtedly does).
Netanyahu has committed his nation to an unsustainable state of total war with the world, with victory undefinable. With the crucial support of the USA almost certain to recede within the coming years, Israel will feel the consequences of diplomatic isolation more than ever... and with every crime committed upon innocent civilians in Gaza, the West Bank, Lebanon, or Iran, it becomes more and more difficult for any future Israeli Prime Minister to alter course towards the pursuit of coexistence... and maybe that's the point.
Netanyahu benefits by exploiting and amplifying the siege mentality of the Jewish people; a sentiment easily justified by the horrors of history. But as he assures his nation that "this time" the walls he has built are high enough to keep them safe... surely some Israelis have noticed that their fortress has become a prison.
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JollyJoker
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posted September 24, 2026 10:43 PM |
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And the same can be said of Mussolini and Adolf Hitler - instrumental in making their whole countries "fascist".
It's NEVER just ONE person. Focus may be ON them, once they are at the head of the executive power, since they have a lot of power, but there are always people who believe in them, suport them, vote for them, work for them, follow commands, agree with them. Tolerate them. Result: slide into fascism. Like in the USA.
It it's been one man in Israel, then it was one man in Italy and Germany. But the result is the same - country has become fascist.
So that's not helping.
And just as a reminder:a concentration camp isn't just the German version. In fact, it's the Americans who invented the detainment camps (starting with the natives), but I think the Brits came closest to what Gaza now is, during the second Boer War when they interned 120.000 people, one fifth of which died due to the abysmal conditions. The common denominator is the idea that the people detained in all those camps have considered to be subhumans somehow.
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purerogue3
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posted September 25, 2026 12:02 AM |
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If you spread the definition of fascism from race to any other identificational differences to create an 'in' and 'out' group, I'd consider Obama a fascist as well, as many consider the 2008-2016(trump) years were hell.
He wasn't authoritarian, but showed quite well you didn't have to be.
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Geny
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted September 25, 2026 07:03 AM |
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@artu
While I take issue with certain details in the article, its main point is not unfounded. Netanyahu desperately wants to stay in power and that pushed him to ally himself with forces that crave isolation so they can justify their own agenda and make Israel "independent from foreign influence and demands".
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JollyJoker
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posted September 25, 2026 08:43 AM |
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It's not about creating out-groups. It's about creating bogeymen, getting rid of them and necessarily taking control in the process (because otherwise there is no getting-rid of them, they tell you). After all, there have to be sacrifices made. As a recipe:
Step 1: Identify "the problem" - the bogeymen. This can be everyone: Jews; Blacks; gays/queers; gypsies; illegal immigrants; refugees; feminists; leftists; intellectuals; teachers; atheists; Catholics. A neigboring country - whoever. It helps, when you can identify long-existing prejudices and go from them. Spin the according story - today that's not a problem at all, just spread fake news.
Step 2: Promise to "get rid" of the problem and make [X] a better place.
Step 3: Create the instruments to effectively get rid of "the problem". Build an army, if it's going against another country. Common denominator is, "the problem" lose human rights and citizen rights and are treated accordingly, either without any legal foundation (unlawfully) or based on "special laws" which would be against the constitution under which people still believe to live. If it's another country it's demonized. They are terrorists. They are communists. They are destroyers of life, they kill and eat babies, they are monsters.
Step 4: Start the process of "getting rid": Put them in special camps or jails, deport them into other countries who take them for a bounty per head or just kill them. Attack the country or countries in question.
Step 5: Laws and constitutionality are now softened and corrupted enough use the instruments and laws created together with the foundation of a basic followership to tighten the reigns and seize control. This is especially true in wartime.
That's fascism 101 for you.
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purerogue3
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posted September 25, 2026 04:49 PM |
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The reason why "fascism" gets people riled is because it uses force where before social exclusion (spoken or unspoken) - the creation of the in/out group (ie. "deplorables"), which is considered 'masculine'
You see this exact dimensional difference between Trump/Obama.
The reason why Trump still endures despite his outrageous behaviour is because those people excluded under Obama rememeber, forever.
It's not a stretch to say every 'fascist' movement has been precede by said fascist being unfairly treated. Did the Nazis just come from nowhere?
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