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Heroes Community > Heroes 4 - Lands of Axeoth > Thread: Mighty Strategies
Thread: Mighty Strategies
Thunder
Thunder


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted May 22, 2002 07:24 PM bonus applied.
Edited By: Thunder on 23 May 2002

Mighty Strategies

This thread is devoted to the Might alignment. Feel free to post any strategies concerning Stronghold. Following is my present strategy.

HEROES

Barbarian Tavern has access to all might heroes. However, besides Barbarians, only Thief and Lord makes any sense to your Barbarian forces.

I usually start the game by recruiting either a Barbarian or a Thief. Most of the time I recruit Thief nowadays. At the second week I will recruit one of those which I didn't recruited in the first week. On third week I hire Lord.  

I usually try to develop some Combat for my Barbarians before starting to develop another skill trees for my heroes, so that they can endure more hits in early battles against neutrals. Resistance comes later.  

I often try to develop Tactics skill as high as possible to one of my Barbarians. That is the hero I try to protect most in battles. Another Barbarian will develop either Scouting skill and Pathfinding skill or Leadership skill (without touching other Tactics skills), or both. Having two Barbarians with reasonable level of 15 should look therefore like these (without locations visited or other bonuses):
1st Barbarian: Expert Combat, GM Tactics, Expert Offense, Expert Defense, Basic Melee and Advanced Resistance.
2nd Barbarian: GM Combat, Expert Scouting, GM Pathfinding, Basic Melee and M Resistance or M Combat, Expert Tactics, Basic Offense, Basic Defense, GM Leadership, Basic Melee and Expert Resistance.

You also might consider third Barbarian who will fully develop Combat. Let's see what that kind of hero can do:

Level 17 Tazar who has GM Combat, GM Archery, GM Melee and Master Resistance attacks Asylum force which has 2 Black Dragons, 30 Minotaurs, 12 Efreets, 100 Bandits and 80 Orcs. Without Immortality Potions fight will be short, so lets give him some. With 4 Immortality Potions Tazar was unable to beat that army. I hope this discourages players to develop combat barbarian instead of general or ranger as they both benefit your army more than what pure barbarian can do. True, most of the time that combat hero will gain some artifacts to make his punch even bigger. In any case, if you plan to go for combat barbarian you shouldn't do so unless you have already hired those other barbarians. Perhaps it is best to stick to your thief when trying to annoy your opponent in the ways of skirmish.

One thing interesting to note is that now combat heroes can make hit and runs more effectively than most spell casters (excluding perhaps sorcerers and town gate).

What comes to magic, barbarians can't learn magic unless they become advanced class like general. If you plan to go for magic, choose magic school that can dispel/protect against magic.

UNITS

Berserkers

Unlike some people may think, Berserkers are by far from useless unit. They are especially useful in the beginning when capturing mines and artifacts, and there they shine more than any other first level unit thanks to their excellent stats and growth. My general tactic in early game is to put Berserkers on back row and Centaurs and Barbarians to first row. Then, after waiting, I move all of them towards then enemy following this principle: If one of them goes, why don't let them all go? Heroes suck the retalitions and suffer hits (and if one of them is close to death I will pull him/her back), Centaurs have to be moved forward so that they would have even some impact in battle (in some cases it is good to have melee attack with them). Should one of my heroes die (remember that you should try to end the fight with at least one hero alive), I will carry him/her back to town for resurrection with one Centaur while main army continues battling. Berserkers can be quite useful when attacking towns thanks to their double attack. Ironically, 200 berserkers can destroy the gate more than what can the same number of Black Dragons do.

Centaurs

Centaurs have the best stats for the level 1 creature, however, they have quite low growth rate. Their short range penalty, normal melee and their movement makes it sometimes better to make melee attacks with them. They are useful scouts in the beginning thanks to their movement.

Nomads

Nomads are durable and fast walkers. Their durability comes from their first trike and high health (45). They require caravan for their dwelling which is much more reasonable requirement than that Citadel for Harpies.

Harpies

Harpies are worthwile choice if you are planning to go for Thunderbirds and manage to do so early enough. Their swooping attack isn't that effective anymore in sieges as flying units have to be in moat, which means several penalties to them and attack bonuses to the creatures attacking over the wall from inside wall , before they can fly over the wall. Their swooping attack no longer backfires against shooters as they can make normal melee attack. Harpies also make good scouts.

Ogre Magi

There is not much to say about Ogre Magi except that they are clearly inferior choice compared to Cyclops. Their Bloodlust should be mass spell to make casting it worthwile, although you can always divide those Ogres. They are slow and sturdy, but this sturdyness doesn't help to patch the hole that the lack of shooters and spell casters leaves behind. Choosing Ogre Magi will leave you tactically vulnerable.

Cyclops

Tactically speaking, the Cyclops are the most important creatures of the Stronghold. Reason behind this is their area attack, which makes them the most devastating ranged creatures of the whole game. Unlike in previous Heroes series, area attack can now hit creatures indirectly, which in turn means that you can make more easily attacks without hurting your own creatures and having more multiple targets. In general, you should use tight formation to shield cyclops from ranged attacks and spells. Cyclops are what can make opponent come to your side of battlefield, straight to the overhelming strenght of your brute force. If your opponent manages to block Cyclops, it is easy to disengage blocking creature by eating their retalition from behind. This is true for any ranged creature. In castle sieges, Cyclops can attack both creatures in towers and creatures adjacent to those towers. Furthermore, the ranged attack of Cyclops can't be retaliated. Main disadvantage of Cyclops is their low growth, however, both Breeding Pens and Lords can help to overcome this problem. Second big disadvantage of them is their slow speed, which is the main reason for Tactics/Leadership heroes. If some of your units have taken heavy lossess in previous battles, move the crippled stack out of your army and divide cyclops.

Cyclops area attack is really devastative and will sometimes force opponent come to your cyclops, and to become blocked by thick wall of flesh and bone.


Air Elementals are using Loose formation on the picture above. Their large size enables  Cyclops to hit four of them. If they were smaller cyclops could hit only three of them. Good thing is that in general smaller creatures are weak too. If Air Elementals would be using Tight or Box formations, Cyclops would propably hit six of them.

Big one I. One big eye. One-eye see, two-eye die!

Behemoths

Building the Behemoth dwelling is relatively cheaper than to construct the Cliff Nest, which is the main reason to build it. Behemoths won't do much more damage than Thunderbirds except against lower level creatures. They are also slow. Still they can pack some punch due to their strenght.

Thunderbirds

Only reason not to build Cliff Nest is that it requires Castle. If you can build it early enough, go for it.  The lightning special of Thunderbirds, flying ability and their growth makes them a better choice than Behemoths. They are cheap too.

STRATEGY

Most of the time you should use tight or box formation to protect your cyclops and the hero who masters tactics. Larger the map the more aggressive you should try to be. Practically the only thing that can hurt your massive forces is magic (aside from Necromancy and Summoning). So your first and foremost target is opposite mage, depending how developed is their magic skill(s). Especially some nasty magic combos, like Sanctuary and Plague, can bring your army to ruin with ease. Good thing is that most of the time only Order has access to those combos. Enemy Tactics heroes are also important to kill in early battle. The more time you give to your opponent to build his forces, the higher level mages he will possess. In general, it is better to face opponent in small or medium map than in large or extra-large, albeit may it be said that the Breeding Pens and the Thieves will help you to struggle in larger maps.

Academy

Needless to say that Academy's main strenght is magic. Aside from such nasty spells like Town Gate (a new level of hit and running), Mass Slow, Teleport, Blind and Berserk, the real nightmare is Hypnotize (although opponent may have Pain Mirror or Steal All Enchanments instead of that). When engaging in a battle with Academy forces always click to view what spell schools and on what level their mages have. Opponent might have come with big stack of genies to create illusions and ice bolts and also with several smaller ones containing one genie to cast song of peace and slow. When shooting with Cyclops your main target is, almost always, opposite mage. If you can't hit the mage with cyclops, hit the biggest stack of genies instead destroying as much as possible of those smaller stacks too or/and Titans/Magi. Magi's poison can be annoying if they have come in large numbers but they won't stay long in those large numbers. Titan/Magi build line is more problematic for you than the Gold Golem/Dragon Golem since opponent can't propably match your brute strenght.

Preserve

Against Preserve it would be good to have Thunderbird/Harpy build line because of Quicksand and Water Elementals. In larger maps opponent may have used multiple druids for summoning and you may face huge forces of Nature creatures. Again, it is better to storm to your opponent instead of waiting them to come to you. Faerie Dragons are problematic with their Fireball, Confusion and Lightning. Like Genies opponent may have divided them to one larger and several smaller stacks. Cyclops' area attack is useful again.

Necropolis

You will propably face a large number of those Vampires. In general it is better to handle other threats first than to start reducing those Vampires. Kill Venom Spawns, Devils, Cerberi, Bone Dragons and heroes before those vampires. Skeletons and Imps are only cannon fodder so don't waste good attacks on them. Should opponent come to your lines with Devils and Vampires, kill the devils first. Vampires' true strenght is their draining ability and unless you attack them that ability won't be useful. So other targets first. Once you deal with those Vampires, however, deal them with force. Use the remainings of some stack to take retalition from them and gangbang them.

Asylum

This time Behemoths are better choice than Thunderbirds as Lightning ability doesn't have effect on Black Dragons, unless they have Hydras. Medusas and Efreets are good targets for your Cyclops.
Be careful with the hydras' area attack when you try to gang them. Behemoths or Thunderbirds can easily handle them alone. First level creatures aren't much to worry about, as usual.

Haven

There aren't any too dangerous creatures in Haven which is good thing, as you can worry more about enemy heroes than their units. Try to hit as many opposite shooters as possible with Cyclops area attack.
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bestanden
bestanden


Adventuring Hero
posted May 22, 2002 11:52 PM
Edited By: bestanden on 22 May 2002

might strategies reply, long

Nice post... some replies:

Quote:

Barbarian Tavern has access to all might heroes. However, besides Barbarians, only Thief and Lord makes any sense to your Barbarian forces.



I think tactics/leadership is very important for might, where battles will turn on whether the birds can get to the other side of the field in one turn and whether cyclops go before enemy casters.

Quote:

I usually start the game by recruiting either a Barbarian or a Thief. Most of the time I recruit Thief nowadays. At the second week I will recruit one of those which I didn't recruited in the first week. On third week I hire Lord.



My might hero build is thief, knight, lord/magic.  You may get lucky and go straight to expert stealth with the chests and structures near the castle.  If so, you will flag critical mines much sooner than with a barbarian.  Lord (only on L XL maps which will go well into the third month, otherwise skip straight to magic) only needs to go to expert nobility sometime in week three, otherwise the levels are generally better spent on a different hero, a magic hero if you have a second town.  The knight takes the experience from the wandering monsters only after the thief (or thieves) has passed them.

Quote:

I often try to develop Tactics skill as high as possible to one of my Barbarians.



I think the levels are better spent by developing a specialized tactics hero (knight/death knight) and adding some combat to them.

Quote:

One thing interesting to note is that now combat heroes can make hit and runs more effectively than most spell casters (excluding perhaps sorcerers and town gate).



Yes, it will be interesting to see people whining about this when MP comes out.  Actually, high level druids can do an effective h&r (summoning spells) also as can necromancers (raise spells).  Imagine suicide h&r where a kamikaze launches an attack, dies, and then a thief picks up the tombstone and gets back to a town/sanctuary structure.  That is why a sanctuary structure should a) not be placed near main castles and b)cost money to resurrect heroes.  

Quote:

If you plan to go for magic, choose magic school that can dispel/protect against magic.



IMO, Chaos and Nature go best with Might.  I think the goal with Might is to overwhelm with superior numbers and these two schools (damage/summoning and confusion/giant/dragon strength) play best along those lines (also anti-magic in Nature is nice).  IMO, strike hard and fast with great numbers and damage playing might.

Quote:

They require caravan for their dwelling which is much more reasonable requirement than that Citadel for Harpies



But Citadel is, as you point out, also a prereq for the Mighty Birds, so it works out (Unless you like to watch apes shambling across the field and dying).  If you are building birds, you are wasting 4000 early, before caravans are important, by building nomads.  Also, I may be mistaken, but I believe that once the doors are bashed in a siege, harpies can fly in at will.  They really shine, though in open field combat, where the opponent must detour a stack or spell to deal with them.  They are great hero killers in round two and really mass up well with a breeding pit.  Nomads either stay back (thus useless) or get killed.  Harpies can contribute to any battle and stay more out of harm's way.

Quote:

This time Behemoths are better choice than Thunderbirds as Lightning ability doesn't have effect on Black Dragons, unless they have Hydras.



Kamikaze T-birds - IMO, Birds are still better to get across the field and hit the dragons before they can get across and fry your cyclops, lightning or no.  With the birds across, the opponent has to divert attacks/spells to deal with them instead of your cyclopes. A very tough decision.


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Thunder
Thunder


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted May 23, 2002 03:07 PM
Edited By: Thunder on 5 Jun 2002

Problem with Knights and Death Knights is that using them in Stronghold army will give a morale penalty (-2), which is the reason why I don't think it is a good idea to recruit them. I agree that Tactics are vital though. Thus, you should have a barbarian developing the Tactics skill.
In larger maps it is definitely possible to have such a barbarian. In smaller maps, the combat skills the Barbarians come with can be more helpful as the Knights tend to die easily due to the lack of time and Immortality Potions. If Tactics hero dies, so will die the bonuses the hero bestowed to the creatures.

Hit and Running with Necromancers using Raise spells won't be effective as there has to be dead creatures in order to use those raise spells.

Hit and Run in general (Town Gate excluded) won't be that effective anymore even though it might be more commonplace. The risk of losing your hero might be just too high. Good hit and running hero needs high speed and high morale to be able to act before your opponent. They also need some damage capability. Hit and runners will propably come to the battle with creature wall protecting their hero. I do think that hit and running will be accepted as a strategy in Heroes 4, rather than as a cheap way of doing damage to your opponent like in Heroes 3.
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Moose
Moose

Tavern Dweller
posted May 24, 2002 04:06 PM
Edited By: Moose on 24 May 2002

Moo! No more, no less. Just moo.
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Why worship mortal when you can worship Immortal?

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Thunder
Thunder


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted June 04, 2002 10:45 PM

I didn't want to start a new topic for this funny text I found.

It has cyclops and ogre magi in it so it isn't too irrevelant. Just don't question my motives too closely .

Welcome to New World Computing, where a few of the elusive Heroes IV creators are currently lurking. These unsung heroes are, I feel, so valuable that their talents must be shown to all.

'Frank' is the man behind the Fire Ring animation - although some would say that he is the man responsible. Frank has been blind for twelve years, but he sees NWC as a great way to enjoy life. "I also drew some of the monster animations," he said modestly. "But I'm particularly proud of the Fire Ring."

We met 'Jake' as he was out to get some coffee. We watched him walk past the coffee machine, wait an hour, circle back to his desk, wait two hours, return to the coffee machine, wait an hour, take the coffee, circle the room and return to his desk. Yes, Jake is the man who coded the AI. "I'm an expert at this sort of thing. I was the guy who wrote the AI for Space Invaders back in the 80's. They wouldn't let me go near Heroes III, but for some reason remployed me for IV. I'm not complaining, though, it's a good job. Excuse me, I'm going to grab a doughnut."

We haven't seen Jake for two days since, but we hope he finds the doughnuts soon. In the meantime we spoke to the person who created both the Cyclops and the Ogre Magi. 'Thomas' was behind his desk, wearing an 'I Love Cyclops' t-shirt and waving a little one-eyed banner. His desk was littered with plastic cyclops figurines.

"So, Thomas," I asked him. "Tell me about Cyclops and Ogre Magi."

"Cyclops are great," Thomas enthused. "Area Attack. I'm responsible for that. They're the best ranged units in the game."

"And the Ogre Magi?"

Thomas paused. "The what?"

"The Ogre Magi. The alternative to Cyclops."

"Come again? I can't remember an alternative to cyclops. Cyclops are everything. Did you know, a Cyclops can take out an entire army if they're packed closely together?"

Thomas also created the Order spell set. "Order is great," he said happily. "Best spells in the game. With Order you can do anything. I love Order."

"Isn't it slightly unbalanced, however?" I asked.

"Balanced? What do you mean? It's not as if there are any other spell schools."

"Yes, Thomas, there are. Chaos, Death, Life and Nature."

Thomas seemed surprised. "Really? I didn't know about those. Do you want me to tell you about Order some more?"

We left Thomas to speak to 'Erwin', the man behind multiplayer. We couldn't find him anywhere. "I don't think he's shown up for work ever," said an unnamed employer.

'Julia' created the music for the Haven town. We found her banging steel cymbals together while forcing an old man to scream in pain. "Julia," I told her. "I and some people find the Haven music to be simply annoying. Wouldn't it have been better just to use the Castle music, or at least made a decent tune?"

"I can't hear you," said Julia, smiling. "I'm completely deaf. New World Computing is an equal opportunity employer."

'George' is responsible for the game's memory code. We found him in a corner, trembling violently. "They're out to get me," said George urgently. "The little green men. They're all around us, can't you see?"

"George, do you have anything to say about the memory leak?"

"My God, they're in your hair! The little green men! Swarming all around me! Aaaargh!"

Finally we spoke to 'Bob', in charge of public relations. "Bob," I said, "Do you have anything to say to the loyal fans of Heroes IV?"

"Get the hell out of my office," Bob said. "Or I'll rip your legs off."

"But Bob, people would like to know what NWC thinks of unresolved issues."

"Do I want to talk to you? No. I don't think so. Get out before I force you to eat your earlobes."

I began to ask Bob a question, but he intervened. I am recovering nicely in hospital and will regain mobility in several years. Unfortunately, it cut my interview short, but I think we now know who the real minds behind Heroes IV are.
This may sound like I'm being critical of Heroes and NWC, but I'm not - I love it. Just not all of it. =)

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Jenova
Jenova


Famous Hero
posted June 06, 2002 10:40 AM

HHAHAHA ROFL!!
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SniperRanger
SniperRanger


Hired Hero
Always sharp
posted June 06, 2002 01:58 PM

Very funny.
you really should started a new thread!!

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Jenova
Jenova


Famous Hero
posted June 06, 2002 03:28 PM

Just as a sidenote, Jeff Blattner, designer of HOMM also has a bit of a sense of humor:

Quote:

GameSpot: Hi Jeff, thanks for taking the time to talk to us. Now that Heroes IV is out, have you been pleased with the response from the public?

Jeff Blattner: I must say I am a little disappointed with the public response so far. Sure, people are lavishing praise on the game and spending hours and hours in a fruitless attempt to satiate that "just one more turn" addiction. But we really expected to be on the covers of Time, Newsweek, and Cigar Aficcionado. We are sitting by the phone for our congratulatory call from George W. Bush.

GS: What aspect of Heroes IV are you most pleased with?

JB: That's like asking which is your favorite child, isn't it? Everything turned out really well. The game looks great, plays great, and has some fantastic innovations beyond the previous games in the series. Perhaps the best part is being able to sit back and read about how many people are getting such tremendous enjoyment from the game.

GS: Looking back, is there anything you would have done differently? Or anything you had hoped to include that didn't make it into the game?

JB: I sure would have loved to include multiplayer in the box. In hindsight, we also shouldn't have used live fantasy creatures while testing combat for the game. PETFC (People for the Ethical Treatment of Fantasy Creatures) gave us some serious heat for that. Other than that, there is nothing I would have done differently.

GS: A lot of new content for Heroes III was released over the past few years. Do you have any plans to add more features or content to Heroes IV in upcoming expansions?

JB: Nothing has been announced yet. If I were a betting man, I would be willing to place some spare change on a Heroes IV expansion. However, no matter how many fans request it, we will not be including a "Teletubbies" town.

GS: Now that Might and Magic IX and Heroes IV are complete, what's next for New World? Are there any new projects in the works, or are you just focusing on supporting those games?

JB: We're planning our next projects as I am typing this right now (which is 47 percent more difficult than walking and chewing gum at the same time). Once we do have new projects, I promise you that GameSpot will be among the first to know.

The official order:
1. Management decides about new game
2. Dev team members are notified of precise details via Russian fan Web site
3. GameSpot story

GS: That sounds about right. Thanks for your time, Jeff.


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