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Heroes Community > Heroes 4 - Lands of Axeoth > Thread: What's the hero's role now
Thread: What's the hero's role now [ This thread is 2 pages long: (1) 2 ]
Daikon
Daikon


Adventuring Hero
with great magic powers
posted May 28, 2002 11:55 AM

What's the hero's role now

I'd like to add something: Now you can have more than one hero at the same army. But initialy this does not seems to be that good to me, since the hero's power come from evolution and if you have several heroes at your group they will not advance fast. On the other hand, when you have a powerful hero them maybe it's worth to share experience with a weaker hero. The experience "lost" by the stronger hero will, proportionaly, be more valuable to the weaker hero, witch will advance much faster. For example, if you have a fighter hero as your primary hero. You choose to advance the combat skills primarily, and when he already is strong enough you choose to invest on tatics sort of skills to improve your troops powers. If you then take a new hero instead, you can advance him so much faster with the same experience that would go to your stronger hero, just adding him to the group and sharing experience. That way you will have much more levels of skills spent on tatics to boost your troops with the same amount of experience.
The point is, in my view, it's not good to have more than one hero in your main fighting group in the begining, but it seems that, as the game advances, may be worth to have another hero jon the fight. I see that you guys are very good with math, so I will let you do it. Just correct me if I am wrong.
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Sorry for my bad english...

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SniperRanger
SniperRanger


Hired Hero
Always sharp
posted May 28, 2002 02:09 PM

It will not work that way. If you have two heroes, one strong and another weak, the strong one will receive far more experience points then the weak.

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fallen_one
fallen_one

Tavern Dweller
posted May 28, 2002 03:49 PM

I didn't knew stronger heroes get more experience each battle than weaker heroes. Anyway, in heroes3 it was normal to recruit new heroes, just to get resources, explore the map, colect tax from windmills and so on. Now you can do this with a single level 1 creature!!! What's the point in getting more than one or maybe two heroes now?
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Cat
Cat


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Gonna Get Dirrty...
posted May 28, 2002 03:57 PM

1) Only heroes can flag mines or dwellings... creatures can't
2) A garisson hero is always nice to have.. xtra spells
3) Creatures can't use arties
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Diwethaf Gloau Sylw y Gymreag

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Daikon
Daikon


Adventuring Hero
with great magic powers
posted May 28, 2002 03:59 PM

You didn't understood me, Sniper Ranger. It doesn't matter who gets more experience. Some portion of the experience that would go to the stronger hero will go to the weaker hero instead, and the weaker hero will take better advantage of it than the stronger, since he needs much less experience to advance levels.
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HappyPike
HappyPike


Known Hero
Pikeman
posted May 28, 2002 06:20 PM

Quote:
It will not work that way. If you have two heroes, one strong and another weak, the strong one will receive far more experience points then the weak.

where did you read that? I thought EXP points are evenly divided between heroes in the army. Level of a Hero is irrevelant.
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Daikon
Daikon


Adventuring Hero
with great magic powers
posted May 28, 2002 11:41 PM

I also think so. I don't have how to comprove right now, because I'm using only Linux right now.
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fallen_one
fallen_one

Tavern Dweller
posted May 30, 2002 12:54 AM

How many heroes do you usually recruits in a game with medium size map?
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bestanden
bestanden


Adventuring Hero
posted May 30, 2002 01:31 AM

heroes

IMO, wise to hire as many heroes as possible, best investment in the game.  With a few buff up sites, they get better than a level 4 fast and cost less.

Usually take each hero only to expert levels (thief is exception because doesn't permanently spend experience) before beginning to spend experience on the next hero. One exceptions is if there is a great spell in the guild.  Another exception is the tactics hero which I will usually have only one of.

I like to have the most heroes in a life army and the fewest heroes in a nature army.  With might, barbarian rush may end up being a good tactic in MP because they go up in combat so fast.  


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Triton
Triton


Adventuring Hero
Master of the Deep
posted May 30, 2002 05:18 AM

Experience distribution

It isn't advisable to have a level 20 hero fighting alongside another level 1 hero.The great discrepancy in levels will result in a miserable share for the low level hero.

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Charis
Charis

Tavern Dweller
posted May 30, 2002 09:46 AM
Edited By: Charis on 30 May 2002

Experience split - how and why

The experience is split up pro-rated by the level of each hero. So equal experience if they're the same level(s), or with a lvl 3 and lvl 2, a 60%-40% split.

Exp Received = Total Exp * heroLvl / sumOfHeroLevels

As suggested in last post, having a lvl 1 with a lvl 20 will net the young hero almost no experience. Let him hit a learning stone asap, and he'll get double the exp as a lvl 2 instead of lvl 1.

That's the mechanics. Back to... 'should you'. I find two heroes per party *very* effective. Three main reasons.
1. Lower lvl hero needs less exp to level up, and the exp table is progressive. For the same exp you can get one lvl 20 hero or two lvl 16's. (More or less, I don't have the chart with me). The fact that both benefit from learning stones and dream teachers mean they'll be even higher than this.
2. Skill specialization. While splitting exp in half lowers your lvl by about 1/4, splitting your SKILLS into two realms cuts your effectiveness by a factor of two or more.
Example: GM Combat and Advanced Life, 10 skill points vs GM Combat + GM Archery, OR Master Life. The latter two will be MUCH more effective for the same 10 pts. Lets say with the exp split you get two heroes with 7 pts each. Now one is GM Combat + Advanced Archery, one is Expert Life, again much more effective than one hero with split points.
3. Meat shield. A hero with decent hit points, pushing combat early, especially with a few items, makes a glorious shield and eater-of-retaliations that will save the lives of many many troops. A lvl 5 hero with GM Combat for example, even if he did nothing else, saves more than his weight in gold in the first tough battle.
[Edit. 4th reason. If one hero dies in battle, full exp goes to the other. Exp is never wasted unless you manage to let both heroes get killed.]

Finally, the 'how'. There are many ways to develop multiple heroes. Here are a few thoughts...
A. Might and Magic, from the start. They stay equal lvl and split exp 50-50, one going for combat and other might skills and the other for GM in that school. By about lvl 15, or closer to 10-12 with buff sites, you've got an awesome combo, and no morale problem by sticky with troops of same alignment.
B. The Amoeba plan. You start as above, but once each hero is able to be effective and hurt the enemy on his own, you divide them out into separate parties and each takes up one NEW hero. Head for a learning stone asap, then go back to normal duties. The young guy won't be effective at all for a while, but will lvl-up very quickly and start to help. The young might hero beelines GM Combat and can pull his weight, and the young magic hero goes for helpful non-dmg spells early like Wasp Swarm, Song of Peace, Forgetfulness, and helps out a lot too.
C. Dual Might. One pumps tactics and at schools, nobility or scouting. The other pumps combat to the hilt. In a large game, each later on picks up a different magic school to dabble in for the most effective low lvl skills. I just used this method in a Might game for Land of our Forefathers with good effectiveness.
D. Dual Magic. Each pushing hard in one school (in fact, one skill) and when they start to feel fragile, combat. Having around lvl 15 a GM Order *and* a GM Life mage in the same party is quite powerful.

I hope this helps  
Charis
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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted May 30, 2002 12:56 PM

"Exp Received = Total Exp * heroLvl / sumOfHeroLevels"

The lower level heroes is always guaranteed to get 1/30 of the XP. This will kick in say if you mix two high-level Heroes with say 1 level 1 hero.

"[Edit. 4th reason. If one hero dies in battle, full exp goes to the other. Exp is never wasted unless you manage to let both heroes get killed.]"

To add to this... If you have only dead heroes in your army it becomes useless. You gain no Xp from defeated enemies, you can't flag mines, and I believe you can't take towns either. (The town will ressurrect heroes if you lose them in the battle, however if you have none (only Tombstones) before the battle starts, I have a hunch that you will instead be met by "You need a hero in your army to claim this town.")

So I believe if you have an enemy hero of overall low level with a huge army close to your town, then the 'guerilla' tactics of attacking them with some heroes and appropriate troops and take out just the lone Hero and then flee would be a very good tactics. Tactics not working at all if you have a Sanctuary nearby, and really open to abuse if you have Town Gate in your hero's spellbook. So hit and run to take out enemy heroes may prove very effective if the oppurtunity is given.

The big army can still take out your troops, but with some luck you can return to your town and can then caravan your troops to another town. This will leave the enemy close to your town, but they are helpless to do anything. Your town is empty, and they can't claim any of the resource mines or creature dwellings which you usually have close by.

And the loose resources, you have already claimed yourself so the army will not be of any use to the enemy until it is led by a new/ressurrected hero.

You should develope several Heroes, especially in the cases where you early capture towns which are opposite in alignment to your own early. You won't be able to mix creatures from the two towns without very high morale penalties and heroes native to your town will likely not be proper leaders for the new town.

The campaigns avoid this problem by only having towns of one type (or sometimes allied towns or a might town) to a great extent. However, if you play L or XL map with random cities having many heroes to lead your troops become important.

So if you start on a corner with two towns and is prevented from having a third town for quite a while, then it will matter a lot more to your strategy in H4 than in H3 which two towns you get.

How many heroes to develope depends a bit on how much tuition is available on the map and how much tuition you can afford without stunting your economy. The more heroes you develope the more tuition you can buy.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"

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god_boy
god_boy


Known Hero
posted June 01, 2002 01:53 AM

I've got a question:
If i had two heroes with a same skill, is it cumulative. for example, if i had two heroes both with grandmaster resurrection, does that mean that i can resurrect 100% of creatures killed in combat? Similarly, if i had two heroes both with grandmaster necromancy, does that mean that i can potentially resurrect, like, 4 vampires after a battle? Cheers.
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god_boy
god_boy


Known Hero
posted June 01, 2002 01:56 AM

P.S: to the post above, if the two heroes were in the same army.

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted June 01, 2002 04:08 AM

No, neither Necromancy, nor Ressurrection stack. And the same apply to all the Tactcis skills. You just pick the best bonus from the Heroes which is alive at any one time. Charm and Diplomacy don't stack either and they are in addition exclusive so you can only use one of them before combat. Similar things also apply to Pathfinding and Seamanship, you use the best hero in the army.

So if you have a 50% Res Hero and a 40% Res Hero and the 50% Hero gets killed and the other survives you get to ressurrect 40% of the lost creatures.

Other skills like Summoning will stack as each hero summons creatures independently.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"

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god_boy
god_boy


Known Hero
posted June 03, 2002 04:31 AM

Quote:
No, neither Necromancy, nor Ressurrection stack. And the same apply to all the Tactcis skills. You just pick the best bonus from the Heroes which is alive at any one time. Charm and Diplomacy don't stack either and they are in addition exclusive so you can only use one of them before combat. Similar things also apply to Pathfinding and Seamanship, you use the best hero in the army.

So if you have a 50% Res Hero and a 40% Res Hero and the 50% Hero gets killed and the other survives you get to ressurrect 40% of the lost creatures.

Other skills like Summoning will stack as each hero summons creatures independently.


Damn, I thought i could rought the system and resurrect 100%.

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted June 03, 2002 11:01 AM

Quote:
Well daikon i think you didn't understand him because he means like if you want to let your weaker hero grow
stronger sooner then it does not help by puttin it with a stronger hero because the stronger one gets more XP so .........


I don't think there was any misunderstanding on Daikon's part.

He didn't ask about XP but asked if abilities stack for heroes in the same army.

And putting a low-level Hero with a high level-hero could be a way for fast advancement. Just make sure the high-level heroes dies before combat ends and the low-level hero survives. The low-level Hero will then get all the XP.

Method usuable if you're close to a town or sanctuary, since it's quite easy (and cheap!) to resurrect heroes.


NOTICE: You're supposed to address me using "she" and not "he". (Merist, my Avatar being a Female Gnoll Witch)
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"

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Daikon
Daikon


Adventuring Hero
with great magic powers
posted June 05, 2002 01:28 AM

You may take a look on charis post. He explained it in a more detailed way.
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Sorry for my bad english...

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fallen_one
fallen_one

Tavern Dweller
posted June 05, 2002 02:22 AM

Thank you, bestanden, for sharing your wiseness with us.
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Daikon
Daikon


Adventuring Hero
with great magic powers
posted June 06, 2002 03:13 PM

Dont you think its strange death knights to start with tatics as their main skill? One of tatics secondary skill is leadership, which do not aid undeads that much (just the luck bonus)
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Sorry for my bad english...

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