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| Thread: one thing that bothers me (because Heroes now can be part of your army) |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · «PREV |
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malkia
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted May 24, 2001 09:38 AM |
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1. Just like most RPG, heroes you hire at day 1 week 1 month 1 are newbies and they would not be much stronger than those stack of low level creatures.
Then what will happen if my hero got incidentally killed by 10 archers (about 15 damage - enough for starting hero points?) - and i have 20 archers? - this sounds like begining of the game? right? and normally i can win with 20 archers against 10 - but what if they'll shoot at my hero? - how they gonna scale that up? Don't tell me that 3DO/NWC will tweak the AI - to not shoot to my hero - because fun will be off.
On the other side if my hero starting points are somewhere up to 50 - then it seems that I nearly got creature level 6-7 just first day - which is unfair! Like getting Wyvern first day.
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2. Maybe heroes can do two actions in a round (i.e. spell casting + att/def/.....). Or since heroes will have different specialties, just let those spell caster heroes cast spells and let your brave warrior heroes to fight.
Agree - can be something like ArchAngels when they do ressurect - make sense.
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3. Maybe no att/def modifiers any more. Heroes leading troops may only give them higher morale, better luck (if the hero is luck specialist). Yes, heroes will still want to get artifacts coz these artifacts will still help them.
That's not good - i don't want REALWAR simulation - i want my Heroes of Might and Magic - i want my hero to change status of all my creatures - this is probably the FIRST thing that everybody likes about Heroes - the way hero modifies it's creatures. This is a FUN FACTOR which makes people to love this game. I'm playing heroes from the first one till now - mainly because of such factors NWC put inside the game. That's why i've played DISCIPLES one day - and that's all - same for Age Of Wonders. It's not fun for me - it's like playing CHESS with some very modified rules which makes the game no more CHESS
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4. I agree that to gather a huge force is easier than developing a great hero. Then, no one told you to fight that legion of skeleton with only one hero. Heroes are heroes, they are not gods. 
Senseless - this is SECOND IMPORTANT thing into game - with low ARMY good HERO good MAGIC CASTER to win against large ARMY (even with strong HERO) or vice versa. This is the FUN FACTOR in which if you win with small army good hero - against lots of troops the "HEROES ORGAZMO" comes - it is!
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Then, no one told you to fight that legion of skeleton with only one hero.
So you mean - that when computer/enemy player is coming with LARGE army against my castle - I should go away - why I can't protect them with my TAZAR and left 88 lizardmen, 40 basiliscs - even against 15 dreadknihts and 1500 skeletons - just an example. And here comes the HONOUR of your HERO - you HERO if nothing can be helped even with SMALL army have to try AGAINST the BIG ONE (of course - if you can't do anything else) - here comes the HEROES FACTOR!
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Ironied
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 24, 2001 10:44 AM |
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Don't be so trustfull that programmers think of all we discuss here
thunderknight your arguments and proposals are quite good, but don't forget that developers are under great pressure, especially 3do as they have finacial problems at the moment. My worries are that now 3do orientates on successfully selling products like age of empires and that heroes in battle is not so well designed as we discuss here. Another big problem is that in times of 3D-graphics many software developers put a lot of ressource in graphics and don't think so much about gameplay and stable programming as in former times. in former times the developers did put much more energy in creative ideas as graphic-engines were not so important. also the internet had some bad touch for the users cause nowadays developers throw their products on the market although they are not ready. so they misuse the consumers as beta-testers, we play the game write a lot of things in forums and mails and 1 year after the first release when all patches are out you can play the game. in some cases its even worse that developers throw out the product, consumers claim about bugs, but the developers already have to work on another project and patches never come.
Except from that i don't think that our discussions here will have a lot of influence on heroes4 as heroes in battle seem already be fixed. Also the creatures and towns seem to be fixed. if you take a look at http://gamespot.com/gamespot/stories/news/0,10870,2760914,00.html you will see.
thunderknight: you are right heroes in battle can be an interesting new feature but it also can destroy the whole game and when i look at recent products (battle isle 4, age of wonders) i am not so trustfull that 3do handles that satisfyingly as you are.
and remind chess is played the same way many 100 years and it is good as it is.
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Ironied
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 24, 2001 11:07 AM |
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One thing about more realism
Many people argument that heroes in battle is more realistic cause in a battle the leader also can be attacked. but heroes is not a game that is an realistic strategie simulation as some other games. its a strategie game which has certain rules like chess. don't compare it with real battles. if you come with this argument i could have 1000 more like:
how can you carry 3000 skeletons, 1000 centaur, 100 dragons in one boat.
how can a hero with 3000 skeletons in his army walk faster than a hero with 1 dragon on the adventure map only cause the hero has logistic. why should then the skeletons walk faster they dont have logistic.
how can 1000 dragons need the same place then 1 dragon
why do the creatures need no food. month and weeks path and they don't eat or drink anything.
why is the money and the ressources everwhere available. each hero, each town on every place has all ressources. do they beam it around????
and so on....
so don't come with this more realism arguments.
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Flector
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 24, 2001 12:49 PM |
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Escort Hero
Ironied thank you for your feedback!
For gameplay purposes the hero and his defenders are indeed in the same hexagon. Too be able to graphically display this you could make a hexagon a little bit bigger so it can contain a hero and its defending stacks.
Creatures who received the escort hero command cannot do anything else but defend the hero. So they cannot shoot (like a titan) or cast a spell (like a master genie). They only follow the hero and defend him (as long as they receive the escort hero command).
QUOTE: 'are the creatures immediatly at the hero or do they have to walk to him? i think they should have to walk cause otherwise speed and spells like slow, quicksand, forcefield loose their sense.'
I agree on this. The creautures must first walk up to the hero. This also implies that if creature stacks are too far away from the hero you cannot give the escort hero order.
To Malkia: I am not angry at you at all In fact I am happy there are some posters like you who create important threads! Too bad you have not reacted on my escort hero idea yet.
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malkia
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted May 24, 2001 07:22 PM |
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To Flector
Thanx for the good words!
Actually i quite didn't understood first time your idea, now i got it after explanation with the hexes.
But I always was thinking that HERO is one - who is sitting far away from the battle looking through his looking glass and giving commands to his large army.
Okay - why not all your army to be escort army? - and then when hero is only one - he got CHANCE to fight alone against the others?
It's GENERALLY stoopid if HERO is included into ARMY because he is the MIND/SPIRIT/TACTICS/LOGIC and eveyrthing in in the battle but not the MIGHT! He was not made for fight - he was made to command UNITS! As like KING in CHESS. Probably they've should name the game KINGS of Might And Magic. Anyway
I'll be soon starting my free open sourced project - and will call him BURZUM (by the name of the famous group) Burzum means BLACK and WHITE as I know... ANd the game will be nearly reproduction of heroes3 - but with graphics of GAMEBOY game - not very good (actually i've got both Heroes1 and 2 for GAMEBOY - so I can see the art very clearly).
if somebody's interrested drop me mail malkia@treyarch.com or malkia76@home.com - though I'm still designing the data structures and so - probably will go with CVS on sourceforge.net (there is already some game project like HOMM)
Art will be needed, though
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Flector
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 24, 2001 09:36 PM |
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Malkia it certainly seems you are strongly opposed against fighting heroes. However, it is a fact that the heroes will engage in battle in Heroes 4! As i had some doubts myself on figting heroes I tried to think of some changes in the game that might make it work. I just hope 3DO put (at least) as much thought into it as I did.
Your analogy of a hero to the king in chess is not very good. In chess the king can move, capture enemy pieces, etc. So it is actively engaged in the battle!
Good luck on the Burzum project!
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Mordred
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 25, 2001 12:14 AM |
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Heroes fighting in combat can work! Personally I'm excited about this, one of the few things that does excite me about Homm4.
Here are some ideas that could make it work, I doubt ofcourse that any will be in the game... but you never know. I'm just trying to give examples on how it would be possible.
1) Just because Heroes CAN fight, doesn't mean they have to. Heroes wouldn't be all that powerful (maybe equvialent to 1 Dragon at around level 20), but they stay in the back "overseeing" the battle as in homm3. Just like homm3, they can't be attacked and don't fight... they lend their help through spells and secondary skills (I doubt that the old system of attack & defence will remain, but your "might" heroes can have up to 5 levels in offence, defence, archery, etc. This will mean that secondary "might" skills will be far more important in homm4). The diffrence is that they can ENTER the fight. Once done, they become valid targets for attacks & spells. They have to waste a turn "entering", but they can't be attacked (or attack) until the beginning of the next round. Another additional possibility would be to initate a duel with another hero, then they could only attack/be attacked by/cast spells on/have spells cast on them by the enemy hero (a duel would be between two heroes, regardless of how many there are). If all creatures are killed, then the hero has two choices... retreat or fight!
2) One shot, one kill: This is something I hope they put in, not only for heroes but for creatures too. Imagine a fight between a hero and 20 minotaurs. Well, let's say the hero is powerful enough to cut down 6-8 minotaurs in a single round... the minotaurs could kill the hero in one shot! But that isn't how it should play out, the hero can only kill 2-3 minotaurs per round regardless of the damage the hero can do... you can only swing the sword so much in a single round. Likewise, not all 20 minotaurs could attack the hero every turn... maybe a half-dozen at most. You see where this is going? This "evens" out the power diffrence between creatures more, while still giving the edge to the more powerful stack. Same thing with archers, a small stack of arches can only hit an equal number of troops. Dragons are another matter, first they're BIG (thus can be attacked my many more in a single stack), and their weapon is an area effect (hits the entire stack, regardless of numbers!). And don't go off thinking that this is too complicated, and you wouldn't want the headache... how many people really figure up all the numbers before they attack? (And if you use the little info bar, then the info can be changed to the #-# killed, thus no additional math for you). Strategy is about getting the feel, having that instintive knowledge of what to do... experience never hurts either!
3) I want to shoot that archer, but those swordsmen are in the way! Placing troops in front of a stack should at the very least interfear with missile attacks, perhaps direct spell attacks as well (the stack in front soaks up a % of the damage first)
4) Look at him dodge! Heroes should have inate magic resistance (similar to taht of dwarves + Golems) and a dodge score. Spells should have a chance of not working (just like all RPG's having "saving throws" or something like it) and damaging spells should have reduced effect (i.e., take only 50% damage). Heroes should be able to dodge a % of damage coming from missile weapons (some creatures might have this ability to, like sprites for instance)... they are heroes afterall! They don't have to be invincable, they just need an edge.
5) It's just a flesh wound. Perhaps "killed" heroes are simply unconscience and get better after a combat provided two things: their side won, and they wern't killed by another hero.
Well, that just my 2 cents... btu it can be done! If you ever played Masters of Magic, you'll know this...
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thunderknight
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted May 25, 2001 05:50 AM |
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I still believe !
Hi, all,
Ironied, thx for your good words. I've also seen various sites for h4 news and it seems that heores in a battle would be implemented in h4. (unless the community put forward great opposition to this idea, just like the case of banning of mechanical/forged town in AB. )
I've heard from more than one of you saying 3do is in financial problem, is it the case ? 
It is a fact that realtime game is a trend now, especially they are more attractive to teenagers (I'm not  ) and from marketing pt of view, it is normal for companies to make more and more RT games. However, I think turn-base strategy games still have their market. And I think homm series is quite successful especially it handles the problem of online playing quite well.
By adding a new feature, 3do may aim at attracting new players. The game cannot survive by just keep things as they were in the past especially for strategic games. (Well, for some games like NBA series, FIFA series, it would be OK ). Frankly, I think the campaigns and single maps in h3 TOO EASY especially for players who have played h1 and h2. Nevertheless, I think it is necessary to make easy maps for new players. For players who want challenge, they can always do so by other means. homm series is great in the way that it can accommodate players of different levels. Ooop, a little bit out of topic.
Well, I still believe in 3do. I appreciate their works in the past and hope they would keep it up as before. Now, I think maybe we should have a poll for this issue........to see what other people think and make ourselves heard by 3do.
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Choose what you love
and love what you choose.
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Ironied
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 27, 2001 11:39 PM |
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Escort Hero
Still it won't work as you think cause if the creature can do nothing other than take damage for the hero or defend black dragons are best cause they cant be hit from magic and have most hitpoints. if you implements it so only creatures with much hitpoints and magic ressistance are usefull
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Ironied
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 28, 2001 12:05 AM |
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Attracting new players but loosing the fans
By adding a new feature, 3do may aim at attracting new players. The game cannot survive by just keep things as they were in the past especially for strategic games.
But people who played h1, h2, h3 especially liked the gameplay of heroes of might and magic. this is not just adding a new feature this has an heavy impact on the gameplay. if 3do made heroes4 a real-time game or the heroes would walk around in the first person look this would also not be a new feature. such things are big modifications.
i don't think that the battle mode needs so much improvement. 3do should do more on the adventure part. that more things can be done there. look at my improvements poll, maybe you also know some improvements which you want to be fixed in heroes4.
Frankly, I think the campaigns and single maps in h3 TOO EASY especially for players who have played h1 and h2. Nevertheless, I think it is necessary to make easy maps for new players. For players who want challenge, they can always do so by other means. homm series is great in the way that it can accommodate players of different levels. Ooop, a little bit out of topic.
Yes, but this has nothing to do with heroes in battle. this is a KI-Problem or Editor-Problem. I also posted something about the Editor in my Improvements poll. If the map designer has more possibilities to take influence on the map settings maps and campains get harder.
Well, I still believe in 3do. I appreciate their works in the past and hope they would keep it up as before.
When you look at my improvements poll you will see how many bugs are still in heroes3 although i there 3do released 4 updates and did improvements in AB and SOD. As i am developer myself i know that you cant think of all. Especially balancing strategy games is very hard. When i read some postings i get the feeling some peoples don't think about the consequences of their wishes. I mean even a little modification like making devils immune to fire can have enourmous impact on the balance and then some guys post whiches like they want to have an ultimate artifact that gives +40 for all or something like that.
if heroes are in battle i don't know how the folling things still have their guilty.
heroes abilities (attack, defense, moral, luck, skills) influence the creatures in the army. (cause hero can die)
hero can cast spells (not if he is dead).
hero gets artifacts of his opponent (not if he and his opponent dies in battle, also what happens to the creatures then when both heroes die. they have no leader do they run away now)
who gets experience points of the battle
and one big question: why do all thing heroes in battle make h4 so much more interesting in the strategie part. there are other many other things who would do that better. (the need of transporting ressources, the influence of weather in the adventure and battle part, (like wind on the sea ... ), eagle eye, disguise on the adventure part. and so on. this things are also part of the strategy not only the battle field.
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pluvious
Promising
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 28, 2001 08:56 AM |
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I agree that 3do needs to strongly consider the strategic consequences of allowing heroes to participate in battles. Much of the gameplay will be different. But to me I find it much more interesting to see a hero in battle, and especially to mix more than one hero.
Right now (homm3) the hero is just some guy you hire in the tavern to add +'s to and cast spells. And the game revolves around a single hero building up and fighting a decisive battle against the enemy hero. You use other heroes as specialty heroes, either for hero chains or to explore, or to pick things up. This is in my opinion an uninteresting way to use heroes and a reason to change the way the game is played.
So 3do has made creatures that can move around without heroes and also allowed heroes fight in battles. This will make heroes more interesting, make you have to build up more than one hero, and decide if you want to group a bunch of heroes together or seperate. I havn't heard anyone ask if a hero takes up a normal spot like a creature stack...and if so do you have a hero or a stack of creatures? Sounds interesting to me.
Now you can combine all your hero +'s in one battle...whetehr they are magic or might heroes. You can have a magic hero casting the spells and a might hero doing the fighting. Interesting? To me it is.
Now you have to protect your heroes somehow. Keep them alive so they can cast spells. How this works is unknown. However, considering the different battlefield layout and all the other rules changes I'm certain something will be done to make heroes in combat work. It just isn't that hard. I put some suggestions before and there are many more. What needs to happen is simply to consider how these changes work with the entirety of the game.
Basically everything just needs to be re-balanced. Yes, heroes can fight and this changes gameplay. But so what? This in itself does not ruin the game. What would ruin the game is if the designers fail to understand how this change affects everything else and does not work to correct it. But considering the Heroes series success and large fan base I'm sure they will do well. They get input all the time and know what their fans want. They didn't change to real time did they??? No, they didn't. They just tried to upgrade the graphics and make some interesting changes. So far I like all the idea changes, but until I see how it all works together I won't know if it is a success.
The main thing I think is that heroes in combat is interesting and something people want. Maybe a few don't but most do. If you want the same game play heroes 3 forever. A new version means "MAJOR" changes people! Patches and upgrades are for minor changes and adding more towns are creatures. New versions change gameplay. All we can do is 3do sticks to their high standards and delivers like they have in the past.
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...Pluvious...
-The Storm Before the Calm-
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Ironied
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 28, 2001 11:04 AM |
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that sound like AOW so if you want heroes in battle buy AOW
-> So 3do has made creatures that can move around without heroes and also allowed heroes fight in battles. This will make heroes more interesting, make you have to build up more than one hero, and decide if you want to group a bunch of heroes together or seperate. I havn't heard anyone ask if a hero takes up a normal spot like a creature stack...and if so do you have a hero or a stack of creatures? Sounds interesting to me.
Sound like Age of Wonders to me. I played it and i hated it.
-> Now you have to protect your heroes somehow.
If you ever tries AOW you would know that it is impossible to protect the hero the other player wants to kill him. As i mentioned in former postings before heroes3 was well balances even if you play with a odd number of players. when two players fight you loose creatures that is a fact. but with artifacts and skills you can be as good as the third who has even more creatures. but as it was in AOW and i fighted with a player and i saw from the beginning that i cant win the battle and so the game anymore my only goal was to kill his hero so he will loose against the remaining player. and so it was all the time.
-> How this works is unknown. However, considering the different battlefield layout and all the other rules changes I'm certain something will be done to make heroes in combat work. It just isn't that hard.
You will see it will not work. And i see me playing heroes3 until heroes5 comes after all people have complained that heroes in battle is not good. that means further 2 years waiting for a new engine. WOW!!!
-> Basically everything just needs to be re-balanced. All we can do is 3do sticks to their high standards and delivers like they have in the past.
3do needed 3 titles to get it balanced and still there are many improvements to make. See my posting improvements need to done. if you ever played heroes2 you would know that there was no balacne. you could only play 2 towns dungeon and tower. the other town had no chance.
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Flector
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 01, 2001 09:59 AM |
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Escort Hero
(Quotes are from Ironied's post)
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Still it won't work as you think cause if the creature can do nothing other than take damage for the hero or defend black dragons are best cause they cant be hit from magic and have most hitpoints.
Yes black dragons are good defenders but what is wrong with that ? They are strong creatures anyway; with or without my escort hero idea.
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if you implements it so only creatures with much hitpoints and magic ressistance are usefull
Creatures with higher hitpoints and magic resistance are better anyway; with or without my escort hero idea.
Most important thing to understand is that you can use as many defenders as you like, but they cannot attack!
Come on! Now give me a real test (tough question) regarding my escort hero idea.
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pluvious
Promising
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 01, 2001 10:17 AM |
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I've played Age of wonders and I've played heroes 2. Both were fun although age of wonders was just a game you played by yourself with the campaign. It did not translate too well online, but was still had "some" things that were good.
Ironied, you seem to think that a game is ALL or NOTHING. You say "If it has heroes that fight it is bad"...just because you have played no other games that do heroes in combat well. That doesn't mean it can't be done. Change is a part of life and you need to keep your mind open. If 3do screws up because they rush the game out or decide to cater to 12-year olds then I'll join you in being pissed off with them. But right now that isn't the case.
Just because you can't think of a way to make it work doesn't mean it can't be done. I see a lot of people on this board who post changes for homm4 (altar of wishes) without considering what already is changed or might be changed for the next version. They say I want a town like this, without acknowledging the fact that the whole town structure and all the individual towns will be changed! You can't think like that. It doesn't work that way.
Personally I can think of a million and one ways to make heroes in combat work for homm3. But until I know what the rest of homm4 is like I can't say for sure what the best way for heroes in combat is. I'm sorry you like the game the way it is. So do I, but its far from perfect. But I can tell from certain pieces of information that 3do has thought some tactical aspects of the game out quite well and are clearly catering to the "core" group of homm players. I'm sorry you don't see that or don't want to.
Anyway, thanks all who are coming up with ways that heroes in combat can work instead of just posting hate junk. Its cool to say you don't like something once but it gets old if you keep whining about it...especially when you don't have all the facts yet.
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...Pluvious...
-The Storm Before the Calm-
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arachnid
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted June 01, 2001 01:38 PM |
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Ironied, you seem to think that a game is ALL or NOTHING. You say "If it has heroes that fight it is bad"...just because you have played no other games that do heroes in combat well. That doesn't mean it can't be done. Change is a part of life and you need to keep your mind open. If 3do screws up because they rush the game out or decide to cater to 12-year olds then I'll join you in being pissed off with them. But right now that isn't the case.
I totally agree pluvious one thing i want to add is that in Shogun totalwar heroes fight and this adds a great amount of strategy to the game.
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Darkmyth_Miura
Adventuring Hero
£ï£DmAn Go to Hell
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posted June 02, 2001 06:57 AM |
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3DO has consenquences to face. The release date of Heroes 4 is pushed back a least 3 days to make sure that all systems are clear. I suggest hoping for the best.
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æ磣€ðÆ /3iTc(-) http://www.bbhacks.com
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Darkmyth_Miura
Adventuring Hero
£ï£DmAn Go to Hell
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posted June 02, 2001 07:00 AM |
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Heroes being able to fight could be considered both a good thing and a bad thing. Good thing is: U STILL HAVE HOPE IF ALL YOUR CREATURES DIE AND U HAVE A STRONG HERO. Bad thing is the other way around.
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æ磣€ðÆ /3iTc(-)http://www.bbhacks.com
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hsanders
Known Hero
Tolkiens protecter
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posted June 03, 2001 12:18 AM |
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I think it will be a great part of the game that Heroes can fight...GREEEEAAAAT
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ghostofdeath
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 03, 2001 06:54 PM |
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do you know what relly sucks?that they got rid of necroltyes and warlocks in warcraft2.that means you cant summon daemons.
Moderator's note:This topic has been closed, as it refers to an older version of the game. To discuss Heroes 3, please go to [url=http://heroescommunity.com/forumdisplay.php3?FID=6]Library Of Enlightenment[/url], to discuss Heroes 4, please go to [url=http://heroescommunity.com/forumdisplay.php3?FID=17]War Room Of Axeoth[/url].
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I AM THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL
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