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Heroes Community > Heroes 4 - Lands of Axeoth > Thread: Heroes IV: The Alignments
Thread: Heroes IV: The Alignments
ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted July 28, 2002 05:49 AM bonus applied.
Edited By: Lich_King on 9 Sep 2003

Heroes IV: The Alignments

Alignments are a sizeable, new addition to the Heroes Series. Obviously, they’ve had an effect on how Heroes IV functions, and how we play the game. The presence of alignments has not something that has been globally discussed here at the Heroes Community, because it has been taken in as a part of the game, and it seems to players as alignments have been there since the beginning. But the fact is, it hasn’t. As you would know, alignments have been recently introduced in Heroes IV, as I believe, and I think that they are an aspect of the game worth commenting on, at the least.
Myself, I believe that integrating magical alignments into Heroes IV has been quite a good move, in a strategic sense. I’m not sure how many members in the community expected the designers of the game to change the core element of spells and magic operated in Heroes IV. In the previous series, the system was commendable, and it appeared to be working well with the game itself.
This thread is main purpose is to discuss the positives and negatives of the new magic system, and also to see how it helps with making decisions (or not) and how it helped/not helped the game.

The 5 Alignments in Heroes IV are obviously Chaos, Might, Nature, Order, Life and Death. These are all supposed to have opposites. This first part here are my thoughts on their opposite, or near opposite alignments:
Chaos: Order
Might: -
Life: Death
Nature:-
Since there appears to be no opposite to Might and nature, it suggests that Nature and Might SHOULD be opposites. Although, this is not the case.
This is one of the liabilities of the Alignment system; while other alignments have opposites, these two do not. Therefore, if another expansion pack was introduced, it would be OK to have another two alignments in to act as opposites for these two.
The alliances between the alignments would be something as follows:
Chaos:
Death, Nature, *New Alignment 1
Opposite: Order
Death
Chaos, Order, *New Alignment 2*
Opposite: Life
Order
Life, Death *New Alignment 1*
Opposite: Chaos
Life
Nature, Order *New Alignment 2*
Opposite: Death
Nature
Life, Chaos, *New Alignment 1*
Opposite: *New Alignment 2*
Might
Nature, Chaos, *New Alignment 2*
Opposite: *New Alignment 1*
New Alignment 1
Order, Death, *New Alignment 2*
Opposite: Might
New Alignment 2
Life, Might, *New Alignment 1*
Opposite: Nature
Although this system has not been perfected by myself, but I believe it would be quite feasible to add two more towns in to the game. You may also notice that the Stronghold has a 3 alignments like everyone else- a positive aspect of this system.
That is just a little bit of speculation.

A major aspect of the game that the introduction of the alignments has influenced is the decision making of which town to select at the beginning of the game. While this may be your solitary town for only a short time, it does indeed set the tone of the game of which alignment shall be the strongest. If one decides to change the balance of the most dominant towns in their kingdom, the kingdom shall be worse off, as one would have to basically rebuild from scratch.
When deciding on an alignment for that particular scenario, one would have to take into account many more aspects of what that alignment offers compared to H1, H2, and H3. Although some may be more important than others, they are certainly all interconnected.

Magic
When choosing a specific alignment, such as Death, there are a few changes that have been undertaken in terms of magic. One of the most significant is that for the first time, you will not be given the full range of spells.
The reasoning for this is that they are now all classed, as you would realise, and they cannot all be available to the one alignment. One would never expect to find the level 5 Chaos spell; Armageddon, in an Institute of Magic, the Order Mage Guilds.
Now, the case may have been different in Heroes 2, but it isn’t in Heroes IV because of the impact of Alignments.
While certain spells are attributed to certain alignments, there is more to that in magic. Each of the alignments each hold a unique magic speciality, which helps them, mainly in terms of battle and creatures. They are identified below:

Death: Necromancy
Necromancy has to be one of the most useful here. It provides you with extra creatures, in the earlier levels, skeletons, and at the end, vampires. (This has taken on my proposed new necromancy skill in ‘Necromacy-Wrong’ thread I created nearly a year ago.)
Necromancy also makes fighting battles more worthwhile, as you may now walk out with not just more experience, but more creatures.

Life: Resurrection
Resurrection has much similar features to that of the Necromancy ability. Instead of Resurrecting troops in the form of skeletons, ghosts, or vampires, resurrection goes directly to that creature and resurrects a certain amount.
Although one may resurrect many low level creatures, it is difficult to resurrect a level 4 creature, as it has a considerable amount more of experience attached to it. For example:
You are permitted to resurrect 500 experience points worth of creatures, the outcome would be something like this:
4 Monks
2 Pikemen
1 Crossbowman
1 Ballista
1 Squire
0 Angels
Usually, though, the amount of experience is more like 100, not 500.
As you can see, the computer would probably opt for the best creature first, although, with a limited amount of experience (e.g. 100), only a few Pikemen, Squires, and Crossbowmen would be resurrected, leaving Monks out of the equation.

Chaos: Sorcery
Sorcery is a firm magic school ability, as it increases the damage of Chaos Magic’s main element, damage spells.
In conjunction with Pyromancy, Sorcery increases the damage of Chaos Spells, making it possible to have the Disintegrate spell deal more than 1,200 damage. Although, what makes Sorcery different from Pyromancy is that it not only affects Chaos spells, it also increases the damage of other magic school spells. (This usage may be limited, as there are not too many DD spells outside of the Chaos School)

Nature: Summoning
Summoning has the ability to be effective, but adding small, and sometimes insignificant creatures to your army, can be a bit of a waste compared to other abilities.
In the big picture, what does adding 4 wolves a day to your already 600 wolf army accomplish?

Order: Charm
Charm is similar to summoning, but is slightly less useful. A good point of this skill is one has a strong army. If one is lucky enough to come across several titans guarding a treasure, and the owners army has maybe 15 Titans, plus Genies, Gold Golems, etc. the Titans may be willing to join you….
But, generally, you tend to come across more level 1, 2, and sometimes level 3 creatures more often, and usually, they belong to a different alignment and therefore have little (or no) impact on your kingdom. It is also possible for them to unsettle the morale of that army, if you decide to keep them.

Might: -
This is a real downfall for might here, with the lack of magic, comes the non-existence of a special magic ability.

All of this would not be here if it were not for the arrival of the Alignments in Heroes IV. Although this may not be all they have impacted, it makes a stand in magic itself.

Morale
This aspect of the game may be humbled by the likes of magic and town decision making, but it does play an ever increasing role in the Heroes series. To thank for this reality is the introduction of alignments, which have made this system more complicated.
In the previous Heroes series, it were the artifacts that changed the morale and luck of an army. While artifacts still play a role in this differentiating of morale, the alignments and an increased range of morale and luck bonuses contribute just as much, if not more.
In Heroes IV, artifacts such as the 4-Leaf Clover, Mullich’s Helm of Leadership, Medal of Honour, Leprechaun’s Ring and the Gamblers Cards all increase morale and luck, but with the +10 or –10 morale and luck changes, they do quite little.
What is more effective, though, is if one Chaos hero is pitted with a whole army of Life creatures, the morale and luck of that army falter considerably.
What is needed is to utilise as many morale/luck changing artifacts as possible, or, if at low levels, simply recruit another hero.
The amount of morale an army possesses does really affect the army’s chances of winning a potentially close battle.

Town Decision-Making
This topic could possibly be interconnected with the Magic topic, but it has a few differences.
Remember the days of H1 when the creatures ruled the game? Gradually, over the years the face of Heroes has changed slightly. Unlike Heroes I, a smart Heroes player wouldn’t choose a town just because it has the most effective creatures.
More criteria come into play when deciding on which town to play initially.
The main one in my eye is that the full compliment of spells are not present in one town. Although, it is possible to attain another 2 schools from neighbouring alignments.
Deciding a town is now a much more complex matter not only because of this, but also because developing heroes is more important. Just like magic schools, only the alignment, and the two other neighbouring alignments supply Heroes. While they are not special in any way, they do begin with a set of skills which cannot be found in other opposite alignments.

Notice how many times people just say that ‘Life and Death are not neighbouring alignments’ and ‘Order has a great range of spells’ and one may also notice that the towns in the game are symbolised by pictures of their alignments.
Since the usage of the word ‘alignments’ is used so freely these days, I believe that it is widely accepted as a part of the Heroes series.
But; I’ll let you judge that for yourselves.

Edit: Top !
Great topic, Bonus applied !

____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted July 28, 2002 03:03 PM
Edited By: Djive on 28 Jul 2002

Quote:
The 5 Alignments in Heroes IV are obviously Chaos, Might, Nature, Order, Life and Death. These are all supposed to have opposites.


Two corrections. It's 6 alignments. And Might is not supposed to have an opposite.

Quote:
This is one of the liabilities of the Alignment system; while other alignments have opposites, these two do not. Therefore, if another expansion pack was introduced, it would be OK to have another two alignments in to act as opposites for these two.


Not really, because each of the five magic alignments have two opposites. Life for example have Death and Chaos.

Quote:
this is a thing that alters game-play to such an extent that you can't introduce it in an expansion pack.


The alignments follow Magic the Gathering closely, and to include a new color in magic would be ridiculous, and the same with heroes 4. Once you've introduced the product, there's no going back.

I don't see the real strategic decision you're talking about. Maps have towns. You conquer towns and build them up. The alignment doesn't really matter, unless you have the choice of building up several towns at once.

Quote:
You are permitted to resurrect 500 experience points worth of creatures, the outcome would be something like this:


Actually, from the manual and from my limited play experience with Life Magic, I'd say the Xp limit has been ditched. You just get the %-straight off. Do notice that Resurrection is always trunctaded. So if you lose 1 Angel, you will never get it back. If you lose 2 Angels, you will get 1 back if you have GM resurrection, but 0 if you have not. This truncation is per creature type. So if you lose 1 Angel and 1 Pikeman. You will not get anything back.

Also notice that mechanical creatures (like ballista), elementals, and undead cannot be resurrected at all.

Quote:
Summoning has the ability to be effective, but adding small, and sometimes insignificant creatures to your army, can be a bit of a waste compared to other abilities.
In the big picture, what does adding 4 wolves a day to your already 600 wolf army accomplish?


Summoning is not as good as Necromancy, but is fairly good. The production of creatures is roughly the same as in the Creature Portal, and wouldn't you build two CP if you could afford to? I would like to be able to pick the type of creature summoned by this ability.

Quote:
If one is lucky enough to come across several titans guarding a treasure, and the owners army has maybe 15 Titans, plus Genies, Gold Golems, etc. the Titans may be willing to join you….


You're not likely to get these titans to join. You would have to greatly overpower them before they consider joining. And even then the amount of creatures are limited by XP. So you would perhaps get 1-2 Titans to join. Ahemm... ThE_HyDrA have you actually tried this ability out?

Quote:
It is also possible for them to unsettle the morale of that army, if you decide to keep them.


No problem at all. Worst case is to use them as Mine Guards. Otherwise, you can use them to pick up lose treasures, or for scouting. Expendable troops are always good.

Quote:
The amount of morale an army possesses does really affect the army’s chances of winning a potentially close battle.


Agreed. This is true to the point that it may be better to split of say 20% of your army and fight with the rest, and you will win a combat that you would loose if you didn't split away the army.

____________
"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"

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Tristan
Tristan


Promising
Known Hero
illegally insane
posted July 28, 2002 06:51 PM

one other new thing with alignments is that you can't have say a thief leading a group of genies and such without taking the morale penalty.  This is new.

Summoning is a fairly useless skill?  I guess it would depend a lot on your situation.  A few extra wolves could make a big difference at times, and at higher levels you get even better creatures.  Also there is a way to choose what you summon, tho not always practical I have had some success with it.  Just fill all slots in your army and only have the one you want to summon in it.  I did this with elementals in the nature campaign.  Of course, I kept changing my mind on which elemental I wanted At a decent level the summon spells are very usefull, at least against the computer, as if you summon air elementals and send them into the middle of the enemy, most of them will attack the elemental, saving your "real" army for the next fights.  If you do it right you can bring them into short range for your missile troops as well.

Ressurection can be usefull for keeping your level 1 creatures alive to be cannon fodder for successive battles

Charm would be more usefull when facing mostly creatures of your own (or at least allied) alignments, but it is still better than nothing.  I have not personally had a lot of practice with this.

Sorcery and Necromancy I have yet to use enough to comment on, but it seems to me that Necromancy may still be the most powerfull.

Speaking of Might, does anyone know if they are allied to or opposed to any or all other alignments?  I have not spent much time with mixing troops so don't know how the moral penalty works that much.

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dale
dale


Known Hero
posted July 28, 2002 09:41 PM

Quote:
Morale
This aspect of the game may be humbled by the likes of magic and town decision making, but it does play an ever increasing role in the Heroes series.



Morale can certainly make a difference in battles, extra turns or lack of turns for good or bad morale.

I have attempted to find any place in the manual that describes how morale is calculated, but cannot.  Has someone worked it out?  Is there a chart that explains it on some web page, or in some previous message here?

In HOMM3, it was fairly simple -- all troops of the same alignment => +1, two alignments => 0, etc.   But I have spotted having a morale of -4 with only one extra troop mixed in with my nature group (currently doing the three pigs<G> ).

One question would be:
 Is it simply the number of different alignments that matter, or do the aligned vs. opposed alignments have additional effect?
____________
Grey Beards of the world, Unite :-}}

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Celfious
Celfious


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Wait what? *expert*
posted July 28, 2002 09:46 PM
Edited By: Celfious on 28 Jul 2002

http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?FID=4&TID=4383

This is the thread where you'll find alignment calculation

Edit--right thread. LoL

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dale
dale


Known Hero
posted July 29, 2002 03:50 PM

Quote:
http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?FID=4&TID=4383

This is the thread where you'll find alignment calculation

Edit--right thread. LoL


Exactly what I wanted to know -- thanks.

The moral penalties for mixing troops is much more severe in HOMM4 than it was in HOMM3.  Morale is -- don't do it!
____________
Grey Beards of the world, Unite :-}}

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ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted July 30, 2002 10:54 AM

Replies


"Two corrections. It's 6 alignments. And Might is not supposed to have an opposite."

True, it is six alignments, although Might isn't an 'active' alignment if you like. Hmmm. While Might doesn't have a true opposite, I would tend to think it should have one. It should probably follow the way H3 operated. All towns were either Good or Evil. In Heroes IV, it is just taking it one step further and creating opposites and neighbouring alignments.

"Not really, because each of the five magic alignments have two opposites. Life for example have Death and Chaos."

While that is true, it isn't the point I am trying to convey. I am saying with the addition of 2 towns, they will be able to fully complete the alignment system, and each town has one opposite.

"The alignments follow Magic the Gathering closely, and to include a new color in magic would be ridiculous, and the same with heroes 4."

While I do have many M:tG cards, I am not familiar with the rules, so I cannot really understand you there.

"I don't see the real strategic decision you're talking about. Maps have towns. You conquer towns and build them up. The alignment doesn't really matter, unless you have the choice of building up several towns at once."

I would tend to disagree. The alignment I choose to begin the game with shall be my main one throughout the game, and therefore it is important in my opinion to choose an alignment which wil set the scene for the rest of the game. The only way I can see this not applying is if you lose your town very early.

"So if you lose 1 Angel and 1 Pikeman. You will not get anything back."

Yes, that may be so if you only lose one. I shall try to look into it more since we have separate views on this topic.

"The production of creatures is roughly the same as in the Creature Portal"

Yes, although the Summoning ability does not allow you to summon a mantis or a few waspworts every week according to my knowledge. I believe they are only available through spells. (Correct me if I'm wrong)

"Ahemm... ThE_HyDrA have you actually tried this ability out?"

Indeed I have. What I was meant to say was a portion of the Titans might decide to join you if
1. Your army is powerful enough
2. If you possess the right skills

"one other new thing with alignments is that you can't have say a thief leading a group of genies and such without taking the morale penalty. This is new."

That is right Tristan. It does go back to the neighbouring/opposite alignments together in the same army. It does negate morale.

"At a decent level the summon spells are very usefull, at least against the computer"

I agree that the spells are sometimes useful, as it does add some strong creatures to your army when in need, and cannot afford them. It substitutes gold for spell points, which can be very good at times. The only liability here is that the hero is left with fewer spellpoints for battle. It does help if you have an artifact like the Crown of the Supreme Magi equipped. (Sure....)

"Ressurection can be usefull for keeping your level 1 creatures alive to be cannon fodder for successive battles"

I very much agree. A solitary squire can do enough for you to get an extra turn in with your ranged attackers. It also helps in this scenario if you have your troop formation set to 'tight' as then there are 2 lower level troops blocking the more important ones.

"Speaking of Might, does anyone know if they are allied to or opposed to any or all other alignments?"

I do not think so. If you play with the Stronghold, you shall notice that you are able to recruit every alignment of might hero.

"The moral penalties for mixing troops is much more severe in HOMM4 than it was in HOMM3. Morale is -- don't do it!"

I agree there. It does negate a lot of morale if you mix Life with Death for example. It isn't something that you would want to keep for the duration of the game.

Thankyou all for your replies. Sorry I was a bit slow with mine.
____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

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Celfious
Celfious


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Wait what? *expert*
posted July 30, 2002 12:37 PM

HMm.. Introducing a new alignment into HOMM.
I'm not so sure it's a bad idea you know?
If it were all scratched down to nothing, and built back up with a new alignment (or a similar, but different system they have now) I think it wouldn't be so bad.
My point is, it's not perfect now, and not saying a new alignment would make it that way, it couldnt nessisarily hurt.

Hmm.. Shadow alighnment. Wraiths, shadow pheonix, shadow demons, ECT, in opposition to ALL but chaos, and death.

The whole might thing! ERGG!
What could directly serve as an alliance, and oppositioin with might?
I see it aaaaas.. Well. Quite difficult. I'm almost sure 3do had difficulty themselves finding something to maintain the amount of realizm they developed. (With the current alignment system in effect)

Might, in oposition to a (thinking back to Djive's magic referal.. purple cardss..) OH YES Magic.. Ha.
mm

Pure might, pure magic
Nature,..?? Shadow (You know you got that *knock's on computer desk* opposed to shadows)
Death, Life
Chaos, Order


--------------------------------------------------
So to unite a pure magic one would need to question..
Creature's? Motive to opposing might? and unique abilities which make them pure magic.

*Takes in deep breath through teeth*

Creatures.. (Zeleots and magi may have to be replaced)
Someone like incubus (a highly mastered god of mystical knowledge of all creatures) is needed/requested to fufil this aspect of the *new alignment* ideas.

Motive to oposing might..Well, in every young adventurers life (unless born into class) a question floats upon ones soul..
Might/magic, or one of the many inbetween..
To have might rule, there may be NO MAGIC.
To have magic rule, there must be no might.

What make's pure magic unique with there abilities?
(New spelllzzz??? )
The foundation of all magics comes from this *turns hands into a globe* magical structure no other class may learn
excelled abilities in all other magic realms learned.
Restrictions to combat and tactics may apply.

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Scorpius
Scorpius


Hired Hero
posted July 30, 2002 12:43 PM
Edited By: Scorpius on 30 Jul 2002

This discussion is going nowhere.

Hydra>>
What do you wish to argue here, that the alignment system is incomplete and should be expanded?

If you would identify the 5 pointed-star system behind it(Expanded to 6 by adding a neutral alignment to it), you would surely reconsider. Each Alignment has 2 allies, and 2 enemies. You can hire heroes and learn spells from the allied alignments, and you cannot hire heroes and learn spells from the opposed allignments. With the exception of this neutral alignment, might. They can hire a hero of any alignment, but compensate this by removing all links to magic in this town. A very simple and comprehensive system in my opinion, no need to change it in the way you want it.

I dont think there is a need for more towns anyway. The main problem with H4 is that the town build-up is severely damaged by the availability of much less <useful> buildings. In the expansion, but at least in Heroes 5 (i know, this is wishful thinking), there should be a much better and richer 'build plan' in each town. This has been discussed in this post before:

http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?FID=5&TID=5631

Another thing is the over-emphasis on the link to magic, not just in your posts here, but in the game itself.

Each town is linked to an alignment. Each such town has a might and a magic hero, however it is the primary skill of the magic hero that defines the alignment of the town.
Some towns that even oppose each other share the same primary might skill for their hero: Tactics for both the Life and the Death might hero.
The same is true for the Combat skill for the Might and Nature hero, although they dont oppose one another.
The difference made here is by the seconadary skill only, but in order to go up in these skills all have to be developped anyway at some point.

IMO it are the skills for might heroes that should be adjusted, each town should have both an unique might AND an unique magic skill. The alignment of such town would no longer be Nature or Life, it would be a
Haven aligned creature, or an Academy aligned creature etc.

____________

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Celfious
Celfious


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Wait what? *expert*
posted July 30, 2002 12:46 PM

To clear this up..

Who dose might and magic ally with?

Magic allies itself with chaos and shadow
(If I really have to explain why, I should even be posting here)
Might allies itself with nature, and (could nearly manipulate 2 more alignments..) *death, or order*
elves arnt like magic users to the core.. They ward, and heal.. Magic abilites is the world, nopt to rule the world to elves

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted July 30, 2002 07:05 PM

Quote:

"The alignments follow Magic the Gathering closely, and to include a new color in magic would be ridiculous, and the same with heroes 4."

While I do have many M:tG cards, I am not familiar with the rules, so I cannot really understand you there.


You are familiar with hosers?

White has hosers against Red and Black. Things like Destroy all Mountains. Destroy all Swamps. However, normally a colour doesn't have hosers vs. allied colours. So there is now White card that says Destroy all Islands or Destroy all Forests. (Unless the introduced them after I stopped buying Magic.)

It's the same way for all the other ombinations. Green has hosers against Blue and Black, because they are opposed, but not against White or Red since they are allied.

Many cards are exists in series that are symmtrical, take for instance Lands. You have lands that produce white or blue, blue or black, black or red, red or green, green or white. There is no way to put in an additional colour without destroying the symmetry. (The Mage Guild in HoMM IV is working in a similar way right now.)
____________
"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"

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Celfious
Celfious


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Wait what? *expert*
posted July 30, 2002 09:14 PM

I would like to emphisize that this conversation is mush more conversible if we look at it as not making a major change to a game, but looking at it as..
From the draw tables. The sketch board.
Wether it be HOMM5 wish, or HOMM4 past tence (meaning it wasnt set in stone yet).
It is near impossible to get everyone to open minds to drasticly changing a released game.

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Grythandril
Grythandril


Famous Hero
who is a Chaotic Wizard
posted August 01, 2002 04:03 PM

is MIGHT not the oppossite of the MAGIC alignment hence the magic resistant skill?

As for NATURE there should be an extra alignment to compensate for this.
____________
Might is Power
Magic is Power
Honor is Power

Power Rules Above All

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Tristan
Tristan


Promising
Known Hero
illegally insane
posted August 01, 2002 04:24 PM

The 5 way alignment works just fine for me, 2 allies and 2 enemies for each.  I am used to it from the Magic game, though it has been around longer than that.  It does seem a little strange when you are used to the "good and evil" alignments of Heroes3, but I am getting more comfortable with it.  (Really, "good" is whatever I am playing and "evil" is whatever I have to fight against )

I do see a problem with adding another town without upsetting the alignments, as I don't think many would like a mechanical town (the most obvious opposite of might) and many of the units that would be in such a town have been given to other towns (ballista, dragon golem, etc)

Anyhow, that is just how I see it

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Camelnor
Camelnor


Famous Hero
Also known as Blue Camel
posted August 01, 2002 09:33 PM

Here is an idea I posted at ze Round Table the other day which is related to this...

Quote:
My idea for a new town is this:

(this idea is very similar to Might except it is for Magic)
Have an ONLY MAGIC TOWN... meaning they have only 1 type of hero (which of course, is a magic hero), and they have access to all the magic heroes as does Might with all the might heroes ... and it wouldnt be hard to fit them into the magical scheme of things either... you could simply have them not be a neighbor to any of the magics, instead they are in the middle (in the taverns, they would appear next to the Might circle in the middle). They have their own magic, and in their mage guild wings they simply get the same number of spells as the other magics do, except their wings get random magic spells from ANY of the magic schools... OR instead of those type of mage guild wings, you could give this town the ability to build 2 wings of ANY magic...

And for the primary skills, 3do could always cook up a name for a center magic along with maybe another magic skill that has nothing to do with any of the schools, such as tactics is with Might.

And about creatures... out of the 1,000s of fantasy creatures out there, im sure 3do can come up with 8 that would work and 2 or 3 more for neutral creatures aligned with them :-P

I think this is a good idea and would really work well, but as the expansion pack is already not too far away (supposedly), I think they probably already have planned out what is going to be in the expansion pack.

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undead_wolf_...
undead_wolf_lad


Adventuring Hero
Undead Wolf Wrangler
posted August 07, 2002 11:51 PM

Not debating that the alignments are adequate since there are 2 allies for each and might is essentially an opposite to ALL of the magic towns.
But, you knew that was coming, within those 5 schools there are very obvious "opposites" that are made completley clear in their spells. Life magic has Death specific spells, Death magic has spells that only effect life, Chaos and Order have similar spells that are geared towards each other as well...unfortunately, Nature magic falls into a bit of a grey area because they have no true opposite. I would love to see a TRUE opposite for Nature.
We don't need a pure magic town, because you can build your magic heroes to learn a variety of skills anyways.

Expand by adding a Tech twon and get this:

Life - opposite Death. Allies: Nature and Order.
Order - opposite Chaos. Allies: Life and Technology.
Technology - opposite Nature. Allies: Death and Order.
Death - opposite Life. Allies: Technology and Chaos.
Chaos - opposite Order. Allies: Death and Nature.
Nature - opposite Technology. Allies: Chaos and Life.

Technology (or whatever you'd want to call it) would have very limited magic (lev 3) and creatures that are somewhere between the average and the level of the Might creatures as far as HP and such are concerned.
The town would be comprised of dark elves, lower creatures that have been manipulated to fight using technological advancements like gunpowder, and constructed units in the same vein as the dragon golem (which may make it seem less out of place). And Seige weapons would return.
Heroes: Hunter/ress and Alchemist.
New Magic Skill : ALCHEMY (can only be developed to Expert Level (or level 3 spells). Sub skills would be similar to other magic skills, 1 effects spell points, 1 effects, effectiveness of spells, and maybe REPAIR, which would be similar to resurrection, but would only effect mechanical creatures.
new Might Skill : SMITHING (adds bonus damage and speed modifiers for melee units. Doesn't effect attack rating like Offense, but rather inflicts set number of bonus damage based on skill level). Sub skills would include GUNPOWDER( a modifier on top of existing ranged modifiers that add bonus damage and slight speed adjustments to ranged units. At GM would allow for additional shot for ranged units). ARMOR (doesn't effect rating like Defense does, but allows troops to resist certain types of damage. At GM, troops would take less damage from magic. At Master, less damage from fire, etc). BALLISTICS (almost identical to HOMM3 version. Would allow for better use of seige weapons).

These new skills add for great combinations. If you are an Order character, your allies would be Life and Tech. You could learn both Resurrection and Repair and get some of your living and mechanical creatures back after a battle. Or imagine a Barbarian who has Combat, Tactics, and Smithing and the subskills. The Barbarian would be doing additional damage on top of his already powerful attacks with SMITHING and GUNPOWDER and his units would have resistances to certain forms of attack as well with ARMOR.

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted August 09, 2002 01:18 PM

Actually, what they should do is to ditch the names of the alignments altogether and not associate any one town with any one alignment. That is similar to Heroes 3.

Each town and the creatues in them is represented by a colour. Each town is allied to a number of other towns or colours. They can build mage guilds annexes for every allied colours and their own colour. You can also recruit heroes from any allied colour.

Mixing troops give morale penalties similar to the ones you have today, but the penalty for mixing troops is in each case decided by the two colours involved. Allies will mix with a penalty of -1 or -2, enemies with a penalty of -4 or -5. Neutral colours with a penalty of -3.

Actually, if you look at the system they have in heroes 4 this way it makes as much sense as any other system.
Violet-Blue: -1
Violet-Black: -5
Violet-Orange: -5
Violet-Green: -1
Violet-Red: -3
Blue-Black: -1
Blue-Orange: -5
Blue-Green: -5
Blue-Red: -3
Black-Orange: -1
Black-Green: -5
Black-Red: -3
Orange-Green: -1
Orange-Red: -3
Green-Red: -3

The could change it like follows, and preferrably add a few more colours:
Violet-Blue: -1
Violet-Black: -5
Violet-Orange: -4
Violet-Green: -2
Violet-Red: -3
Blue-Black: -2
Blue-Orange: -5
Blue-Green: -3
Blue-Red: -4
Black-Orange: -3
Black-Green: -4
Black-Red: -1
Orange-Green: -1
Orange-Red: -2
Green-Red: -5
I've balanced this so the colours have the same amount of enemies and allies, but this is not strictly necessary. Some colours can be easier to mix with others, and some a lot more difficult. (The ones that are harder to mix would be a bit stronger on their own to compensate.)

What could also be considered is some structure to place the creatures in. A "colour converter". Once placed in this structure the creature changes colour. (Perhaps the colour change should be restricted to allied and neutral colors only.) Another approach is to turn the creatures into a specific colour. (Of course, using this structure is not free of charge.)

What would be very intersting is to place a hero into that structure. Hire a thief in an asylum and then zap the orange thief into a blue thief in an academy colour converter. (Might wanna do this with Prisoners also.)

Anyway, I'm beginning to wonder what this topic is doing in Lands of Axeoth. It's beginning too look more like a wish topic than an impression topic.
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