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Heroes Community > Heroes 4 - Lands of Axeoth > Thread: Necro-Order Strategies (almost long) ^_^
Thread: Necro-Order Strategies (almost long) ^_^
Twinsen
Twinsen

Tavern Dweller
posted August 19, 2002 05:48 PM

Necro-Order Strategies (almost long) ^_^

In this topic I will explain the way I use to develope my heroes and also make some questions.

I usually start with a necromancer playing an order town (I love having both genies and vampires). I usually raise his skill to GM Necro using mage, halfings, dwarves and genies if available. When I have a decent army of vampyres and genies, I give all my weak troops to a new hero so he starts increasing level too (I usually hire an order mage or a death knight).

If posible I want that my necro becomes a demonologyst as they're by far the best subclass available and the summon diablo spell is incredibly powerfull (I didn't even have it, but I cheated to see his effects and a level 31 hero summons 11 of them and considering that each summon replenishes their spellpoints.... as a side note: 120 genies makes an illusion of 11 Diablo each round). My order mage will become a seer and go around gaining exp through chests and stealth. The death knight either goes with my necro together or with the "weak" army. I prefer having mages, halfings and all this creatures appart because they're slow and not really so important in late-game. When the heroes are of a decent level I tend to band them together and I always try to get town portal spell for my order mage so he can be where he is needed. As usually I use stones of exp to level my lords (1 or more for each castle). At 1500 for recruiting them and getting 200 gold a day from them if they level they're worth it.

Titans or Dragon Golems? I usualy take golem dragons because of some facts:

-Can't be drained
-Inmune to mind spells
-they don't shoot but usually atack in the first round and their atack is not halved and having first strike there's a posibility of no retaliation
-They can take profit of the vampiric touch spell
-They cost mineral and you will have tons of it
-They are a bit more stronger than titans
-hmmm... sth I'm forgetting

Uses for imps:
-The usual draining hero stretegy which I won't comment any further as it isn't needed
-Get spellpoints for spellcaster creatures as genies,demons,nightmares... I think you just have to get the creature you want to receive spell points nearer to the imps than the others.

And now some questions:

-Does Magic skills of one hero affect another one or creatures? I ask so because Meditation DOES affect Ice Demon summoning of Diablos

-How are necromancy effects really calculed? at GM it says +10% for each level (10% of 200 is 20) and I always get a mx of 3 vampires at level 17 and 2 before that. Do the necropolis buildings help to increase the max vamps you get?and the amulet?

-Don't you feel like you have always too many spellpoints? I have only run out of spellpoints using demonology spells which cost more.
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Klauts
Klauts


Famous Hero
lost in a mourning hall!
posted August 19, 2002 09:41 PM

Yeah ur right(especially about demonologist) but don't forget that a simple cancelation can destroy all of your summonings.

Btw Dragon Golems should be chose because titans need castle and that means lots and lots of money(unfortunately in H4 money are hard to get)
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bjorn190
bjorn190


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jebus maker
posted August 19, 2002 09:47 PM

I like gold golems better than Mages. Gold golems are one of the best level 2 creatures, and mages die veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery easy (almost no hitpoints)

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Klauts
Klauts


Famous Hero
lost in a mourning hall!
posted August 19, 2002 09:51 PM

Gold golems are the best 2nd level creature.

Btw You got 3 vamps because thats the max(even if u kill 1000 Titans u will only 3 vamps)
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Nidhgrin
Nidhgrin


Honorable
Famous Hero
baking cookies from stardust
posted August 19, 2002 10:18 PM
Edited By: Nidhgrin on 19 Aug 2002

Quote:
Gold golems are the best 2nd level creature

Btw You got 3 vamps because thats the max(even if u kill 1000 Titans u will only 3 vamps)


Indeed, go Gold Golem, not magi.  Rest of strategy is cool, well done.

Actually you can get more than 3 vamps post combat.  You've got to have a really high level hero or Necromancy boosting artifacts/multiple necropoli.  My maximum in a XL-map is 5 vamps post combat.  I remember having close to 500 vampires in that army, that's unbeatable.  Mind that when 2 heroes with necromancy are present in the same army, only the highest rating applies.  The effects don't stack, so give necromancy enhanceing artifacts to the hero with the highest level.

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Klauts
Klauts


Famous Hero
lost in a mourning hall!
posted August 19, 2002 10:27 PM

Didn't know that all i ever got was 3 vamps,didn't that high army won earlier
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HappyPike
HappyPike


Known Hero
Pikeman
posted August 19, 2002 11:20 PM
Edited By: HappyPike on 19 Aug 2002

Quote:
...the summon diablo spell is incredibly powerfull

um... you mean the summon devil spell, right? At first I thought Summon Diablo is a new hidden spell LOL.  
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Twinsen
Twinsen

Tavern Dweller
posted August 19, 2002 11:47 PM

Max Vamps

Well in my experience the thing goes so:
- 2 Vamps with GM Necro at lvl 7
- 3 Vamps with GM Necro at lvl 17
- 4 Vamps with GM Necro at lvl 28
- 5 Vamps with GM Necro at lvl 36
- 6 Vamps with GM Necro at lvl 48
- +2 Extra Vamps with the Grial

The Amplificators don't seem to increase the max vamps and if they do I think they give the same power as one more hero level. If any of this information is wrong, just post your corrections. I don't really know how the max vamps are calculated so I worked it out from experience.

500 Vamps are a lot Nidhgrin, how much time did you spent on that map (in-game time: Months, weeks...). I usually beat XL Maps in a bit more than 3 months and I never reached 150 Vampires. (playing expert dif)


========================================================

To Klauts:

Thanks for pinting out that titans are harder to get, I knew I was forgetting sth.
Can antimagic be cast on your summons to protect them? If not just kill the hero =) (No real problem with 11 Devils)

bjorn190:

Mages are just more useful than gold golems and hp are not an issue since you are going to have mages protected behind your troops. Anyways I agree with you that gold golems are cool with his magic res and strenght, perhaps I will give them a try...

HappyPike:

Sorry for this little confusion about diablo and devils. I don't own the english version of the game and I didn't remember the proper name for devils and DIABLO came to my mind as it was a funny game.


New Question/Poll:

Do you find advanced difficulties more challenging or just a bit boring? (since neutrak stacks are powerful at start and you can't beat them,you have to wait a lot to reinforce your army)

Thx for replying!


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Twinsen
Twinsen

Tavern Dweller
posted August 19, 2002 11:55 PM

Maps?

Quote:

My maximum in a XL-map is 5 vamps post combat.  I remember having close to 500 vampires in that army, that's unbeatable.


There's only one XL-map with the game... did you download this XL-map? Do you know of any sites for downloading maps? Which are your fauvorite user-made maps? Can I make one more question? Please? Will I get angry if you don't let me make me more questions? Am I mad?


Just bored and curious...
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Twinsen
Twinsen

Tavern Dweller
posted August 20, 2002 12:23 AM

Sorry...

Quote:

-Does Magic skills of one hero affect another one or creatures? I ask so because Meditation DOES affect Ice Demon summoning of Diablos.


Actually this is a mistake, I didn't notice . The grial structure seems to be the only thing that affects creature spells, perhaps thats why the nature grial structure only gives +30% bonus to spells (Fenix control-population). So far I have only tested this with Necropolis and Devils, any further information about this would be appreciated.
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Wub
Wub


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted August 20, 2002 07:08 PM
Edited By: Wub on 21 Aug 2002

about the necromancy skill...

Having done some tests, I was able to correctly predict the number of vampires/ghost/skeletons that are raised after a battle. So I guess I have found out the way it works. This necromancy skill surely is hard to comprehend! First I visited the following website:

mmportals.com/h4/h4strats.html

Here is explained how many experience you
get for killing certain creatures. All right, here are the factors that influence the number of raised creatues:

1:You cannot raise more creatures than you have killed.
2:You cannot raise elementals, undead and mechanical units.
3:The maximum number of creatures raised is restricted by a combination of the hero's level and a fixed number of experience points that depends upon your mastery of the necromancy skill (for example, 200 experience points on grandmaster).
4:You cannot raise more than 30% of the strength of a defeated enemy army.

The amount of raised creatures is only very rarely limited by another factor than number 3, because usually the battles are big enough to let the hero use all of his allowed experience points to raise creatures. Moreover, I do not know how to calculate the number of raised creatures when this is not the case. Never mind, let's give an example: a level 11 hero with GM necromancy kills 5000 peasants.
In this case, the number of raised creatures is indeed limited by factor 3. Our hero has GM necromancy, which allows him to raise creatures worth of 200 XP points. He is level 11, so he has gained 10 levels, which gives him 10 times a 10% bonus. This means he can raise creatures for an amount of 10x20+200=400 experience points. Our hero can raise vampires and a vampire is worth 205 experience points (you can see this on the mentioned website; the used value is always the one of normal difficulty). Consequently, the hero can raise 2 vampires, because 400/205=1.95 which is rounded off to 2.

Another example: a level 17 hero with master necromancy kills 80 minotaurs. Again, factor 3 restricts the number of raised ghosts. The hero can raise 160 Xp + 10% per level. Having gained 16 levels, the hero can raise 16 x 10% of 160 +160 experience points of master necromancy =256 + 160 = 416 experience points. A ghost is worth 33 Xp, so 13 ghosts are raised (416/33=12,6; this is 13 when rounded off).

O MY GOD!!!! you will probably think by now. Yeah, I can imagine that. So I will give a rule of thumb to make this easier on you.  

Quote:

Well in my experience the thing goes so:
- 2 Vamps with GM Necro at lvl 7
- 3 Vamps with GM Necro at lvl 17
- 4 Vamps with GM Necro at lvl 28
- 5 Vamps with GM Necro at lvl 36
- 6 Vamps with GM Necro at lvl 48
- +2 Extra Vamps with the Grial



Twinsen said most of it quite accurately. For example, a level 7 hero has gained 6 levels and can raise for 320 Xp. This just gives 2 vampires (1,56 rounded off to 2). The rule of thumb is that with every 10 levels the hero gains, he can raise one extra vampire. This is because 10 levels allow for 200 extra Xp to be raised. By the way, 5 vamps can only be raised on level 38, not 36.

Quote:

The Amplificators don't seem to increase the max vamps and if they do I think they give the same power as one more hero level.



This is exactly what I think. I didnít encounter any situation in which they increase your necromancy skill. I tested the idea that the amplifiers give the same power as one extra level but even that seems untrue. Probably I made some sort of mistake??

All right, finally a question for n00bs . Your level 1 hero with GM necromancy kills 100 bone dragons, how many skeletons are raised?  

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YoungOldGuy
YoungOldGuy


Hired Hero
posted August 20, 2002 09:00 PM

Silly silly tree-man. First of all it would be hard to get GM Necromancy @ Level 1.....

But you can't raise undead silly you said it yourself.

P.S. See I'm not a n00b. I just have no skill.
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Nidhgrin
Nidhgrin


Honorable
Famous Hero
baking cookies from stardust
posted August 20, 2002 09:05 PM


@Twinsen: I still had the save, and the map turned out to be the very first Heroes 4 game I played or at least my oldest remaining save.  I seem to have (hehe) exaggerated some things, but most of it was true.  Here's the info:

- Sea Politics  -  large map
- lvl 30 Lich (and lvl 29 Reaver, but that does not count for extra vamps I guess, didn't know that back then)
- 465 Vampires (loool!)
- Day 2 of Week 1  -  Month 11 (oww, that hurts, but hey checking vamp overkill)

I seem to get only 4 vamps post combat, odd, I remembered getting 5 of them some time.  Anyway, 465 vampires is practically unbeatable.  In that particular army my other creature stacks are but a mere diversion for the enemies when compared to the vamp horde.

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Wub
Wub


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted August 20, 2002 09:06 PM
Edited By: Wub on 20 Aug 2002

Quote:
Silly silly tree-man. First of all it would be hard to get GM Necromancy @ Level 1.....

But you can't raise undead silly you said it yourself.

P.S. See I'm not a n00b. I just have no skill.


You win!! Btw, you raise vampires anyway @GM

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dragonsister
dragonsister

Hero of Order
MapHaven administrator
posted August 21, 2002 06:20 AM

Quote:

There's only one XL-map with the game... did you download this XL-map? Do you know of any sites for downloading maps? Which are your fauvorite user-made maps? (snip)
Just bored and curious...


Sites for downloading maps ... heroes4.org had most, of the major sites, but they were too popular and the bandwidth was costing too much.  CelestialHeavens.com has a number, as does MapHaven (heroes.mycomport.com) - and mapmakers, for some reason, prefer making XL maps.
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MapHaven

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Wub
Wub


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted August 22, 2002 01:49 AM
Edited By: Wub on 21 Aug 2002

More about death and order...

You made an interesting thread Twinsen! Maybe I can add something more to it. First about death summoning spells.

Quote:

Yeah ur right(especially about demonologist) but don't forget that a simple cancelation can destroy all of your summonings.



Quote:

Can antimagic be cast on your summons to protect them?



You were probably confusing these spells with illusions and phantom image spells. Summoning spells cannot be dispelled or cancellated. So there's no need to cast anti-magic. I wouldn't cast anti-magic on your illusions though; they will disappear into thin air.

By the way, the description of the demonary and the demonologist class is total nonsense. I keep discovering new bugs every day I play heroes 4 . Here are the facts (version 1.3 is used):

-A level 11 hero with GM nature and GM death will summon 102 imps.
-A level 11 demonologist with GM nature and GM death will summon 128 imps. This is a bonus of 25%. Forget the in-game description of '+50(??) to summoning spells'.
-A level 11 hero with GM nature and GM death and a demonary will summon 154 imps. This is an increase of 50%, not 100% (the number is rounded off a bit weird, too).
-A level 11 demonologist with GM nature and GM death and a demonary will summon 179 imps, which is a 50% bonus plus a 25% bonus. This confirms that I am right

Quote:

Titans or Dragon Golems?



Quite dependent on the situation as always. There are some big factors against titans and in favor of the golems, though. Titans have very high building prerequisites, golems are the only creatures with a speed far above 6 that order can build and golems are more than 25% stronger. This last remark is made by comparing damage, hitpoints, attack and defense skill.
Facing many chaos creatures encourages the building of titans due to their chaos ward. Chaos ward is also useful against faerie dragons.
Facing many death creatures encourages the building of dragon golems as they can outwait devils, and are immune to the panic/terror ability of the bone dragons. Furthermore they cannot be drained by vampires, poisoned by venom spawn, aged by ghosts and are immune to quite a few death spells.

Quote:

I like gold golems better than Mages. Gold golems are one of the best level 2 creatures, and mages die veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery easy (almost no hitpoints)



Sorry Bjorn and Nidhgrin, I tend to agree with Twinsen here. I found the genie/magi combo a very deadly one when facing neutral creature stacks (on impossible difficulty at least). When you make 4 stacks of 1 genie and one stack of magi, the genies can cast song of peace and slow while the magi's poison slowly kills them. When this combo of, say, 20 mages and 4 genies is reinforced by something like 50 halflings and a low level order hero, you can easily take out a stack of 50 minotaurs without losses. It even works against (dangerous) shooters such as medusas (as long as they don't get a moral bonus). And the best thing is: you can get this army VERY soon...give it a try! It will make impossible difficulty at least a bit more fast moving. But I agree: NWC should never have made neutral creature armies bigger on higher difficulty levels
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