|
| Thread: $900 for Homm3 Automation... |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV |
|
Abazagaroth
Hired Hero
Paladin of Knowledge
|
posted August 30, 2002 10:04 PM |
|
|
What did ToH have on its site? Some maps, at least one database (using more than one for something like this is a complete waste of space), information, etc? WTF is taking so much bandwidth? And even more unbelievable, is wtf is taking 200 MB of space? That's a bunch of crap.
Christ, if you people are that bad at webwork, I'll spend a night and program a php3 script and database and a basic website for you. Its really simple, dump graphics, they don't do anything but waste bandwidth and webspace, don't really make it look much nicer, and no one really gives a crap. You can program a php script allowing registrationg, login, search functions ect. We are discussing an automated site right? Its not that complicated, and it sure as hell doesn't require thousands of dollars to create and maintain. Drop player photos, drop wasted graphics pulled from the games, hell, don't even have to host the maps since there are places you can host them freely and just require people to sit through a couple of popups to download, just a simple site that looks neat, organized nicely, make use of databases for automated login/registration/reporting/score calculation (real easy to make dynamic databases with php files that access the databases to present data), etc.
If your files are only 5-20kb each, bandwidth is not an issue, especially since I already gave you one provider that doesn't limit bandwidth, and there are others out there (no pop up adds either).
Its very simple, you can take the route of maintaining your own servers at astronomical prices, pay the more common providers sums of cash just slightly less with a knife at your purse ready to mug you when bandwidth jumps, or you deal smartly with the issue, and go for function over form, and use your resources efficiently. It took me one night to learn how to use mysql databases with php scripts, and I had no previous database knowledge, just html and a few programming languages from when I was an undergraduate in college. I have a hard time believing someone that is a computer programmer or works with software couldn't do the same. Hell, online there are tutorials and free scripts ready made, so you only need a minor understanding of it!
I, personally, hate the way the web has gone, all form over function, people spending vast amounts of resources on window dressing. That's fine and well if you are selling a product, but is a waste if you are not. Please, don't touch ms frontpage, don't touch any other useless stupid html scripter, learn html yourself, its easy (far easier than when I first got into it in the mid 90s, where you had to use various codes for things like greater than, or quotations, etc), you will know how to make efficient use of your webspace and bandwidth. Your index should be no larger than 40k MAX, and should be as close to 10k as you can get it, dump multi image graphics, dump graphical interfaces entirely.
Anyways, ves and company has no obligation to keep his site up at all, but coming here and crying about how expensive it is and how much money and time he has put into it is irritating, and beyond the point. Either quit justifying it and force people to accept the fact that its his site and he can do what he will, or quit trying to justify it on a cost analysis, because the fact someone wants to pay out the butt for service that could be obtained for much less, and for wasting time creating a graphic heavy site and then complaining about bandwidth is a joke. Its his site, people chose to give him their e-mails and info and to accept what he did with the data. If people were really that worried about it they could have kept track of scores themselves. I just can't stand when people try and act like a martyr for wasting their resources (both time and money) on something. You chose to do so *golf clap*, here have a cookie. Don't try and whine about it after the fact and try and get people to accept the decisions made regarding ToH. You don't have to justify it, but you sure as hell have to accept the fact you pissed some people off. You don't have to *care* that you did, but you have to accept it.
|
|
Coaie
Known Hero
Dirty MoFo
|
|
posted August 31, 2002 12:24 AM |
|
|
Why don't u contact WW. They were looking for a guy who will make the automatization.
They seemed like nice fellows also.
____________
|
|
noogabooga
Hired Hero
Servant of Dark Magic
|
|
posted August 31, 2002 04:12 AM |
|
|
woa... it takes $900 just to clone this thing? surely there are ToH players who are capable of doing it for much less if not free.
anywez since ToH has thousands of members (and most of them would love to keep playing H3), I am sure $5-$10 donations are all that's needed to make it to $900. Have to make the donation methods accessible to most people though.
____________
[size=1]I’ve had a guzzler’s gutful of all this terror talk
I think it’s time to settle down and give the fear the fork
Take a long hard look around at things that pump the heart
Thank the God Almi... too long to display...
|
|
splexx
Known Hero
|
|
posted September 01, 2002 05:26 AM |
|
|
OK GANG!!
Thx,,to many generous ppl,,,
We are at $700 give or take a lil..gdamn $US exchange..
So if we can scrape up a piddly $200 US,,then it's done!!
ToH/MaH will have automation for Homm3 and ToH rules..
No pts. for a loss,,
And Kitty/Ravyn will have alot less work to do,,,and can concentrate on subtournies, and with help, Policing the site for fakes, etc
email me at edennin218@rogers.com
if u don't wanna post here
____________
Azif..
|
|
jb239
Famous Hero
|
|
posted September 01, 2002 05:36 AM |
|
|
I found Abazagaroth's post very funny lol...cause 1 reason TOH was popular was because of the added graphics and such.
what fun is it if you go to a white background page with
Jb239 1 Win and 0 Losses
Abazagaroth 0 wins and 1 Loss
and nothing else?
|
|
2XtremeToTake
Promising
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted September 01, 2002 06:33 AM |
|
|
|
ok, someone explain to me in full detail what the hell is going on with ToH and H3?
|
|
splexx
Known Hero
|
|
posted September 03, 2002 11:53 PM |
|
Edited By: splexx on 3 Sep 2002
|
TIME FOR ACTION!!!!
Hi Everyone
In order to encourage others to help us get the ToH system back for Homm3, I have compiled a list of players who have made a committment to contribute to the cost of cloning the ToH automation.
The following generous people have either posted on this thread or contacted me personally to help:
Destro, Titan888, Frank, TheVinz, Madmartigan, Raistlin, EdwardtheThird, Chubbs, Tewilligar, and smoking_rob.
$750 U.S. is the total to date!!
I have also heard many other players say they are willing to help but with no firm committment as of yet.
NOW IS THE TIME FOR ACTION!!!
To those that have made a firm committment, PLEASE send your donation as soon as you can.
To those sittin on the fence, PLEASE consider putting your words into action.
ONLY $150 u.s more needed.
send cheque or money-order to:
Dr. Robert Simyar
9035 N.43rd Ave. Suite H
Phoenix, AZ
85051 USA
(DO NOT SEND CASH)
If you are not mentioned above and have or will send a donation, plz. email me at edennin218@rogers.com or post on this thread, so I can add you to the list and total.
I will be contacting the above list of ppl. in order to track the amount and when it was sent so as to avoid any confusion.
LET'S GET THIS DONE
____________
Azif..
|
|
melissa_x
Adventuring Hero
Tiffany Taylor
|
|
posted September 04, 2002 05:42 AM |
|
|
repeating myself
remember there has been a commitment to clone the toh automation to the myths subdirectory, and rob would do it if the gesture is made of support and donation.
hehe btw it seems that some ppl have fallen through the cracks and are back on the now hidden rankings page, look at this hehe. http://www.toheroes.com/rankings.asp?rank=recruit
|
|
salpinx
Hired Hero
|
|
posted September 04, 2002 08:30 AM |
|
|
Abazagaroth...
...since your post was so enlightening in theory, please post several URLs of sites that you have created and give some ballpark stats on traffic versus your competitors. Then please let us know the source of your wisdom regarding how to develop and maintain an online community. I'll grant that you have some valid programming points, but you are leaving out one major fact in the web world: "content is king." Functionality for user control is called "added value." Automation saves "man hours." But functionality and automation without content is like a dot-com in the waning months of a short life. I repeat: content is everything. Think: why was ToH hugely successful before automation? Why did it blow away any other online heroes tourney that has ever existed within a year? Because Rob had a great grasp on PHP and mySQL?
BTW, I see your type all the time in my line of business. The resumes go straight to my trash can. We never hire programmers without business and life experience to avoid attitudes like yours.
salpinx
P.S. "dump graphical interfaces entirely" -- now there's a brilliant statement. Hope you're not trying to make money doing web development....
____________
|
|
Abazagaroth
Hired Hero
Paladin of Knowledge
|
|
posted September 04, 2002 08:31 AM |
|
|
Quote:
I found Abazagaroth's post very funny lol...cause 1 reason TOH was popular was because of the added graphics and such.
what fun is it if you go to a white background page with
Jb239 1 Win and 0 Losses
Abazagaroth 0 wins and 1 Loss
and nothing else?
The reason ToH was popular had nothing to do with graphics. It had to do with up to date rankings, a mechanism for dealing with cheaters, and the scoring method which weighted wins and losses on the basis of who you played, to prevent bottom feeding. People play heroes online to play against something smarter than the computer AI, and to test themselves against other people.
The "fun" is in playing the games themselves, the reason you do it in tournament form is to rank yourself against other people. Graphics on the site where wins/losses are reported and basic info (player names and rankings, map hosting) are useless. BTW, ToH started with basically no graphics. When I played several years ago it was just basically a black background with a table of player names/email/icq/rankings/etc on it. It grew due to player interest (and because it stayed around rather than disappearing after awhile like so many websites), not because of graphics or player pics.
I fail to believe anyone is logging into ToH and staring at the pictures on the site, other than the player photos. And if that's the only thing that keeps you playing ToH...well, I suggest actually playing some other game that can keep you interested in and of itself.
____________
C. David Kreger
dkreger@yahoo.com
[url]http://www.modernhumanorigins.com[/url]
|
|
Mad_Unicorn
Famous Hero
I am a mean person shame on me
|
|
posted September 04, 2002 08:23 PM |
|
|
ranks.....
True most people played for ranks but those people also played for this little icon next to thier name (medals) and some foolish players(tee hee) donated some cash so they would get this cool little gemlike thing next to thier name before all the medals.
I personally like the graphics when i started out as i never expected to that well on the ranks or get any medals except maybe the sargent badge  back in season 1. So i was wandering around the site looking at the pretty pictures. At this time it was not toheroes.com it was simyar.com so there were lots of .... pictures....
I hate agreeing with salpinx but content is key but even content can be shaved down and wont suffer from loss of .... extras that keep people watching the pretty pictures.
However i highly doubt Toh has more extra little do dads to make it look spiffy than simyar.com or ftvgirls. I wonder how much these sites cost him.... or make him.
|
|
Abazagaroth
Hired Hero
Paladin of Knowledge
|
|
posted September 05, 2002 03:14 AM |
|
|
Reading comprehension is good....
Quote:
...since your post was so enlightening in theory, please post several URLs of sites that you have created and give some ballpark stats on traffic versus your competitors. Then please let us know the source of your wisdom regarding how to develop and maintain an online community. I'll grant that you have some valid programming points, but you are leaving out one major fact in the web world: "content is king." Functionality for user control is called "added value." Automation saves "man hours." But functionality and automation without content is like a dot-com in the waning months of a short life. I repeat: content is everything. Think: why was ToH hugely successful before automation? Why did it blow away any other online heroes tourney that has ever existed within a year? Because Rob had a great grasp on PHP and mySQL?
Reading comprehension can save you from looking like an ass:
Quote:
I, personally, hate the way the web has gone, all form over function, people spending vast amounts of resources on window dressing. That's fine and well if you are selling a product, but is a waste if you are not.
As I stated, if you are not selling a product window dressing does nothing for you but increase your costs, particularly with relevance to the issue at hand, which is an automated ToH type scoring system. This would not need $900 to alter the code and then much more to host it. I've already told you how you can do it, but here it is more specific:
1) Buy domain and webhosting, circa $50 U.S. per year.
2) Create index file with relevant links (registration, reporting, ranking, player list/search)
3) Create each link file, which has automation through php3 format database search and returns
4) Create a database with the following columns: ID, Name, Password, E-mail, ICQ, AIM, Wins, Losses, Score.
5) If you want more information (specific maps, etc, go for it).
6) Create a registration form that creates a user that is added into the database as a new row with relevant information stored.
7) Create a second table in your database where reported wins/losses are stored, has the following columns: ID, Winner Name, Loser Name, MapID (other info if you like, map size, whatever).
8) Create a reporting form, that takes user name and PW to login, winner name, loser name, and MapID. This form uses the login info to give access to adding information to the table (the second one). In the script you have it search for the same information (simple if then, else statements). If the information has already been entered (presumably by the first player to report) it goes on to enter the win/loss into the first table, if this is the first person reporting, it gets added to the second table. The score changes in the first table can be determined by whatever formualae that are used to keep score, a simple search to get the variable of winner old score, loser old score, and adds newscore into their place within the database.
9) Create ranking page that returns results depending on what you want to know (your rank, score, whatever).
10) Create player search page that lets you search the first database for player name/e-mail/icq/aim/wins/losses/score/rank/whatever.
This, just like any automated system has the ability to be abused, and the same efforts can be taken by whomever would run the site however you want. *shrug* It allows players to automatically register, report wins/losses, search for their ranking/score, search for players' info. It also allows whomever has administrative access to the database to change whatever they want to if they feel someone cheated, or whatever. This is 8 hours of work for someone with a basic html knowledge, if they know nothing of php and have to learn from scratch. It is 1-3 hours worth of work to someone that knows what they are doing already. Hell, there are premade scripts that do these functions already, just download them, change the database login info, the column/table names, result display lines, etc within the code, and upload it.
Quote:
BTW, I see your type all the time in my line of business. The resumes go straight to my trash can. We never hire programmers without business and life experience to avoid attitudes like yours.
salpinx
P.S. "dump graphical interfaces entirely" -- now there's a brilliant statement. Hope you're not trying to make money doing web development....
No, you don't see people like me all the time, because I'm not in the web development business. I am telling the people here that paying anyone to create a website is flushing money down the toilet. Let me quote myself again:
Quote:
That's fine and well if you are selling a product, but is a waste if you are not.
Hence, it is obvious that I am not talking about business sites, nor sites competing for a market in order to make money.
I'm not trying to make money doing web development, I'm working in academia and thus my sites are information based, and I took the afternoon to learn how to develop my own sites and the sites of my colleagues that ask for my help, rather than lubing up and bending over so some web development company could rape my wallet for something a first year college student could do in a few days. If you would have actually read what I originally wrote, before assuming, you would see I am specifically talking about non-profit, informational sites. Not commercial, not selling, much like the original point at hand, an automated ToH site, which isn't for profit, and that has its only function as keeping track of player ranks and scores.
If you are in web development, I can see why you would want to say such a thing. Its how you make your living. But don't give out this bull to me. You know perfectly well what makes a site useful, and what makes use of resources efficiently, and you know damn well a website that is not trying to make money, and that isn't in competition to draw users, but rather to provide a service (free of charge) to a previous user base does not need graphics and photos that take up bandwidth on such a site. If you want a ToH clone for a couple of edited screenshots from the game, you don't really want to play Heroes anyway.
I don't know why I bother, you have someone feeding you bull**** about how costly it would be to maintain a Toh scoring system for heroes 3, or more specifically, for editing already existing code, I give a way to do the same thing for a fraction of the cost, and most people don't listen, the rest deny the validity of it. I said it before, Ves and company had no obligation to run ToH, or to maintain season 5. If other people want to keep such a system going, DO IT! Don't run some "fundraising" (which consists of people lying about what they will donate) drive to give Ves a monetary incentive to keep heroes3 ToH going in one form or another, go take a few days and $50, and make your own site with automated scoring/reporting, let people know about it, and just play. OR STFU and either forget about ToH, or wait for HoMM4 tournament play to start.
____________
C. David Kreger
dkreger@yahoo.com
[url]http://www.modernhumanorigins.com[/url]
|
|
salpinx
Hired Hero
|
|
posted September 05, 2002 06:26 AM |
|
|
Quote:
You know perfectly well what makes a site useful, and what makes use of resources efficiently, and you know damn well a website that is not trying to make money, and that isn't in competition to draw users, but rather to provide a service (free of charge) to a previous user base does not need graphics and photos that take up bandwidth on such a site. If you want a ToH clone for a couple of edited screenshots from the game, you don't really want to play Heroes anyway.
This is one point where I think we disagree Aza. ToH competes in a space with other tourneys and is popular because it competes well. The model is more similiar to a money making site than a non-profit or strictly niche informational site.
The second point I disagree with you is on how you would go about duplicating the functionality. Sure you can do it, sure it's not that hard technically, and sure it work (btw, you have a mistake on #5...joking ). Think about this scenario for a moment: you have a house, you and your partner have full time jobs, you need to keep the house clean. Sure you can keep it clean, it's easy enough to do technically, it doesn't really take all that much time. However, having a house keeper come in once a week to really clean deep is a worthwhile investment to many people. Why? Because cleaning the house is snowtee work and it makes all the little cleaning you do otherwise bearable. It also does wonders for your domestic relationship
So my point with ToH automation is that sure, Rob could do it himself, I could do it, you could do it. I'm not going to do it though and I don't think you're going to do it. I'm certain as bread comes sliced that the last thing Rob wants to do is spend the time to do it when he'd rather be running an H4 site. Hence $900. And if those who want H3 want it bad enough, either step up and do the automation or step up with the money. It's a nice guesture and Rob will still have to put a significant amount of time into seeing that it is done.
So my big beef with all your points is that they are not particularily relevent. ...And the fact that you seem to think it isn't at all a big deal. How long did it take you to write your two lengthy emails? No matter what, it takes time to things, even simple things.
salpinx
P.S. btw, I don't know Rob or Mel and have only played one game with them each in the past 4 years so I could be off base on the details here. This would be the way I would feel about though. Having spent $0.00 and played at least 100+ ToH games in the meantime, I'm willing to cut them some slack. And I think they probably know how much web hosting costs per month as well....
____________
|
| |
|
|
