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| Thread: HOMM4 Expansion |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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rychenroller
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted October 01, 2002 04:22 PM |
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heroes4 sux, heroes3 rules 
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Myctteakyshd
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pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted October 01, 2002 04:25 PM |
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Crikey!!
you're just jealous 56k boy
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted October 01, 2002 04:28 PM |
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Now Now!! Can we stick to the topic GEEESH!
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pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted October 01, 2002 04:35 PM |
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OK! On topic..
1) Can anyone tell me if any changes were made to the map editor in this expansion? ie: can you get information about creatures/events/artifacts within the editor? have they made it at all more user friendly?
2) More of a gameplay question, but on topic as it comes from this statement by re-animator
Quote:
I've liked very few of the included maps (throughout the entire series) or player made maps and generally lose interest in them after a few plays - especially for MP (in which case the game becomes who's memorized the best sequence).
Im wondering if you guys find that there is always one best route in a map regardless of alignment, or if you have a different play style on maps for each particular alignment? It may likely be my inexperience but i find that certain things i can accomplish early with some towns are impossible with others - and i have to adjust my play accordingly.
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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rychenroller
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted October 01, 2002 04:44 PM |
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I found that with death, it was very easy to get things done early due to the fact that vampires are once again way overpowered, but try and do the same thing with other alignments was tough. Getting vamps was very easy too, didnt cost much in resources, while trying to get, say genies going as early, is much tougher, esp. on a poorish sort of map.
Of course, my own experience in h4 is a little limited.
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Myctteakyshd
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zud
Promising
Famous Hero
box worshipper
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posted October 01, 2002 06:59 PM |
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funny thing I have noticed
It takes a hero to flag a mine, but a creature can pay to rebuild an abandoned mine and it is flagged for you.
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Winner or Whiner?
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Re-Animator
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 02, 2002 01:55 AM |
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Pandora's questions
I haven't noticed any upgrades to the editor as far as documentation for objects. For instance, it still doesn't give you info on artifacts or what will happen when you enter a Mausoleum (fighting what type of and how many monsters and what type of reward you may get). There's no real documentation which will really hurt people who don't understand scripting. And finally, there are a number of bugs that will actually crash the editor (mainly if you script down too far) and cause you to lose any unsaved changes.
That said, once you do finally get the hang of it, the new editor is levels beyond the HoMM3 editor. I just saw a pseudo-random map (called "Unknown Lands" - made by some guy named max apes), that demonstrates just how advanced the editor is. You can randomly assign starting towns and alter pathways each time a map is played.
As to your second question, personally I find that the best sequence is usually the same no matter which alignment you start with, but of course there are numerous exceptions (and being able to recognize these exceptions is what makes a good player).
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Re-Animator
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 02, 2002 02:11 AM |
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Just to clarify something
I agree with Rychenroller that it's easier to do certain things with certain alignments. But I was talking about sequences like "get gold mine early as possible, get resource mines, kill monster guarding artifact x, take town b, etc...". You may be able to do that more quickly with Death troops than say Chaos troops, but you will still generally follow that sequence.
An example of an exception to that sequence would be if the gold mine was guarded by Water Elementals (for case 1). In this case, it may be that Nature would have an easier time taking that gold mine vs. Death or Order (who would then maybe alter their sequence). In case 2, a gold mine guarded by Ice Demons, Death would then have the advantage over Nature.
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted October 02, 2002 02:38 AM |
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I guess I will need to take a look at this map Unknown lands. I cant personally imagine how the starting towns could be in random spots of the map every time you load. If it is the potential is endless!!
Jinxer
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Destro23
Promising
Famous Hero
Keeper of GrongGrong
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posted October 02, 2002 02:58 AM |
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I've also noticed, very different power bases in the different alignments.
I think the main problem for me right now is this..
Something nessecary guarded by level 2 creature.. Easy fight any alignment..
Something Nessecary Guarded by level 3 creature.. Hard.. My level of strategy so far can't cope with level 3 guard using most alignments at the point I'd "like" to deal with it.
Death is Very strong for most maps.. Even if not for GM necro which can be hard to get. But those vampires sure can clear alot.. even the 2 you get for just the building. Most other alignements will suffer considerable loses in the same situations. If these Vamps had a speed redution of 3-4 steps it would balance things much easier. They are equivalent to devils in h3 vs Non-living and Mechanical opponents, and even greater vs the living.
For Example. On the map Tempest (my favorite map) so far. I used a random town my opponent chose nature I beleive. I got death. Week 4 day 3 final battle my hero had accumlated some 47 vampires through necromancy. This alone was enough to obliterate his entire army...
Don't get me wrong though I don't really like playing death alot, to me its even more monotanous and boring than necro in H3.
My personal favorite town is Might. Day 1 wrestling pits.. day 2 arsenal.. day 3 hero with 5-6 immortality potions and your ready for mega clearance.
Btw again on tempest map.. I had my might hero clear the dragon city in the underground by himself at lv13 with 6 centaurs accompanying him, not one immortality was required.
Also with might those potion of quickness are really great! You buy them in the Arsenal, and they give an extra attack per round. Early on they can be very powerful but late game can be deadly.. With the right artifacts I had a lv18 gm combat/melee/resistance/scouting/pathfind.. umm ranger I suppose.. Doing 5 attacks per round, with no retal, poisoning opponents.. averaging about 200 dmg per attack. so hmmm thats what? 10 vampires per round 
@Jinxer the randomness of the towns on this new pseudo random map, is not really random per say. It can be in 1 of 2 possible locations for the towns as I am understanding. I've played the map 2 times now. And it does give the feeling of a random map. However it is definately a premade map. However with some work and some EXTREMELY good map makers with alot of time on their hands totally random can be acheived through massive editor work.
I've played about 7 toh h4 games, and maybe 10 for fun, I enjoy the game, I've not experienced any delay between transfers or game slow ups yet. I did go and play h3 again this weekend though and must admit it was GREAT!!!
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The Dead Walk!!!
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bobntamr1
Known Hero
non dictionary ownen hero
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posted October 02, 2002 03:53 AM |
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The possibility's are endless with the new editor, unknown lands is a good map i have played it a couple of times now. But after playing 3 or 4 times i know the map, and the possibility's. Of course you will never know where your opponant is which is terrible when you have the power on your side. By the time I found my opponant I lost, he/she had 1/2 bar when i started looking, I had a full bar on army(theives guild) I didnt have slow guys only powerfull, but it took me a week and a half to find which of 3 towns they were in...this makes a differance that you cant beleive.
To stay on the topic, there is a map editor patch/upgrade whatever you want to call it in gamespy's info section (look when already in HOMM4).
anyways my 2 cents isnt really worth a dime again but thought i'd throw it out there
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god please spare me from my contribulations
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Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted October 02, 2002 06:31 AM |
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You know whats funny is Haven is not really as powerful as other castles early mainly because it is really hard to build in it compared to other castles.
Even in lv 3 you have a better time building a crusaders which I would pick then Monks.
Then building Angels or Champions you need massive resources & expensive thangs to build then compared like some of the other castle to build only a conservatory to build lv 3 or 4.
Stronghold is just as hard to build.
I might be the only one but i prefer Nagas over Genies lol.
Crusaders over monks.
Probally in most cases Dragon Golems over Titans.
Champions over Angels.
Nomads over Harps.
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Dreaming of a Better World
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Thunder
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted October 02, 2002 09:28 PM |
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And finally, there are a number of bugs that will actually crash the editor (mainly if you script down too far) and cause you to lose any unsaved changes.
There aren't that many bugs that will crash the editor. So far I've encountered only one and I have done excess scripting in all of my maps. Maybe Prologue/Epilogue parts have some problems, but I've never needed 'em. And finally too long scripts that will crash the editor can be avoided by dividing them to smaller parts. They can still be in the same event. Just don't put all of the scripts behind the same condition or ask question.
Also, it seems to depend of computer how long scripts map maker can make and/or view. I've succesfully created and tested very long scripts, but one map tester couldn't have viewed them from the map editor even though they worked during the game like they should. However, decrease morale/luck actions in map editor will easily change to positive morale/luck during gameplay.
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted October 03, 2002 03:25 PM |
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ABout Pseudo Random Fixed maps-------
- I have to admit it does have potential. Even though it is not truely random the thought that my opponent can be in any of 3 different locations and I have no clue which one from game start sounds great! ( for Fixed map) Dont get me wrong I still think I would prefer totally random, so they have 0% clue where I am. BUT atleast with the new pseudo random options in the editor it will make Fixed maps bearable and probably even make them enjoyable again.
I guess my point is that I think the editor in H4 is what is holding my interest the most. Even though i dont know how to use it yet, it shows me the great potential this game haas once we get some great map makers to figure it out and get some really outrageous pseudo Randoms produced and posted. As for now all maps are new so kinda fun in the beginnning.
I am currently still in my 1st game with Docfritch. So i have logged a total of umm 3/4 of a game LOL so I know very very little. But our game is into week 4 of month 2. And things are just now getting interresting. I atleast am starting to get some grandmaster skills getting somewhat of a decent army. The scary part is I see some of you people claiming your final battle ended early early week 4 of month 1. Well to me that tell me you have become comfortable enough with a Fixed map already to make a quicker kill since you know the map and exact path to your opponent.
I realize most people hate long drawn out games, I just hope a week 3-4 game and map standard is not established again with h4. Just some thoughts.
Jinxer
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andiangelsla...
Disgraceful
Famous Hero
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posted October 03, 2002 03:55 PM |
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i just cant believe...
...that some guys come up with that chaining thing again and again, its one of the usual things to do in h3...
look at what h4 offers, lame running around with few heroes and single monsters, where is the skill there?
chaining to an extreme for every single chest sux, coz too long turns, but chaining for good stuff, for troops from town, taking troops of main hero and stuff is what makes a good player, if some of you are too lousı in h3 to do that than i cant help ya, but dont come up with "thats all that h3 players can do".
also if some are too lousy to fight for the middle on a map like sd3 i cant help ya, than dont bash the map for having a middle with some reward in it but improve your skill, i cant read it anymore...
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Titan_888
Known Hero
Wind of Change
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posted October 03, 2002 04:42 PM |
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if i where moderator...
i would give andiangelslayer a red star for that post!
so damn true hehehehe
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pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted October 03, 2002 05:24 PM |
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While i can agree that the arguements against chaining have been pretty sad to see - and i completely agree andi, that chaining was a neccesary part of playing h3 and a vital skill to master - i can not agree with your perception of h4.
There are so many more decisions to be made in H4 regarding your development. Where in H3 we looked at pretty much the same build patterns regardless of town, the same skill choices over and over - in H4 the limited gold, the way the troops grow, the different heroes characteristics are all things that have to be planned and adapted with every alignment. If you had spent the time playing H4 to really understand and appreciate the complexities you would likely find yourself a fan of it..
I know of course, that your computer doesn't allow it, and sadly many people have the same problem - but that doesn't mean the game is bad - it means its developers were lacking blame it on 3d0 but don't knock H4
PS to Re-Animator thanks for answering my questions
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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Titan_888
Known Hero
Wind of Change
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posted October 03, 2002 05:30 PM |
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a little red star....
for pandora too
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted October 03, 2002 06:14 PM |
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Edited By: Jinxer on 3 Oct 2002
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Quote:
...that some guys come up with that chaining thing again
chaining to an extreme for every single chest sux, coz too long turns, but chaining for good stuff, for troops from town, taking troops of main hero and stuff is what makes a good player... Andiangelslayer
Andi I agree 150% with this statement. I know I have always been open and outspoken about my lack of enthusiasm with chaining, BUT that 1 statement you just made sums up my thoughts on it. I never said that chaiining period sucks! I meant it just as you said that extreme chaining just to accomplish clearing the map in 4 days instead of 10 was unrealistic. I also agree that some minor chaining is REQUIRED and I do miss that in H4. Infact all I want to do is send my troops from castle to main hero and load them without a penalty. I dont think that would be a problem, and really sucks that you cant do that.
But I will always stick to my opinion that the extreme form of chaining in h3 was to much. And in H4 my opinion that there should be a troop loading exception. Maybe with some penalty but not 100% turn loss. Should bea happy medium somewhere.
I am sorry AndiAngelSlayer, that you feel like someone was attacking you personally or your way of gaming. You of all people have said that people should be allowwed to voice there OPINIONS freely on this board, and soon as the opinion relates to you in a remote way you take offense and start tossing. Your double standard is quite disappointing, since I agreed with your previous arguements of unfair cencorship of opinions, but I guess as you have shown otherwise.
And since I am feeling OPINIONated ate the moment.... A great player would beable to win and adapt to ANY tactic in the game. Even if it meant he couldnt chain that person would beable to find other ways to win. Anyone who is so reliant on chaining to the degree they feel they have to defend it in the nature in which you did, must not be great player. And before flames or anyone elses starts flaming that may fit into this catagory... I admit I am not a great H3 player, I am mediocre at best. I play to have fun and take the game as it comes. And yes I am to lazy to worry about memorizing maps or figuring the best chaining hexes or patterns. I dont call that a great player just a patient player.
The bottom line is play and have fun!!!!! If you have fun playing that way then COOL!! This message boaard is for people opinions to be voiced. It is sad that people cant respect peoples opinions and have a wholesome conversation and debate with out making things personal and offensive.
**** P.S. ****
After writing this I realize that I kinda came down on Titan888 for a similar opinion he had on H4 and H3 comparisons, even though it was meant in a joking manner, it was still not appropriate and leads to hostility so......
I apologize Titan888, your opinion weather I agree or not is just as valuable.
Jinxer
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pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted October 03, 2002 06:30 PM |
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Ok Jinx, you expected me to disagree with ya, well here comes lol
Quote:
A great player would beable to win and adapt to ANY tactic in the game. Even if it meant he couldnt chain that person would beable to find other ways to win. Anyone who is so reliant on chaining to the degree they feel they have to defend it in the nature in which you did, must not be great player.
This is what makes people take offense.. its not your opinions on chaining as a tactic, its your constant statement that these people MUST do it to win, and that's the only reason they do it. Its simply not the case. Many of the players could easily win games without chaining - however they know as skilled players that its a part of the game and they use it.
I also STRONGLY disagree at your statement that you agree with Andi 150%, thats just impossible... you can agree with him 100% but that's it!!!! 
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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