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Heroes Community > Heroes 4 - Lands of Axeoth > Thread: is chaos or order better?
Thread: is chaos or order better? This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
reid
reid

Tavern Dweller
posted November 22, 2002 05:24 PM

is chaos or order better?

is chaos or order better?

i would think chaos is better coz they have the most powerful unit and most devastating spell, distingerate.Medusas r great wif their stoning ability and nightmares haf the terror ability.efreeties r also great wif their fire shield(they do great damage to lvl 4s).And not forgetting hydras wif their unretailable and area attacks.

wad ur think?

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privatehudson
privatehudson


Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
posted November 22, 2002 05:30 PM

Lets see a counter for that then:

Assuming you can speed an order army up a bit (spells, potions etc)

Hypnotise/Blind/Beserk/Mass Slow etc all cripple most armies or individual units. Genies can illusion any chaos unit onto the order side bar BD reversing the affect back onto you. Titans, worked right and in sufficient numbers can wipe out any unit in advance of them reaching mellee range, negating fireshield and area attacks.

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reid
reid

Tavern Dweller
posted November 22, 2002 05:57 PM

but, dun forget that medusas have the stoning ability which can reduce ur four levels. and wad about titans' low hp? distingerate can easily finish them off. chain lightning is also very useful against creatures like geenies and magis

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privatehudson
privatehudson


Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
posted November 22, 2002 06:00 PM

Like  a lot of things it depends on speed, given the chance I would cast forgetfullness or something similar on your medusas and then concentrate on your mages. There's always counters for everything, the 2 are well balanced, it's just order suits me better

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Agent00BLeRD
Agent00BLeRD


Adventuring Hero
posted November 23, 2002 12:33 PM

As far as the creatures are concerned, it's a bit delicately balanced.

Level 1 halflings: Halflings are great against black dragons esp with precision.

Level 2 Magi: Magi have the incredible poison which lasts for the entire combat. And the chaos hero is very unlikely to have the heal spell so magi will have to be the first priority to be taken out unless the chaos side wants irrecoverable damage every round.

Level 2 Gold Golems: I normally don't choose goldies but they will hold out better against chaos spells because of 75% magic resistance.

Level 3 Genies: Genies are the real threat that chaos faces since they can copy any troop on the battlefield except, of course black dragons. They can stone your troops by copying your medusas, they can make your troops kill themselves with fireshield, they can even copy titans to deliver extra voltage. And they have a modest amount of hp and can work "behind the lines" so they might not be in line of sight for disintegration.

Level 3 Nagas: I dunno why someone would choose them inspite of no retaliation, but if he does, it'll be someone to deal with the blackies if they reach the other side of the screen (which they probably will).

Level 4 Titans: These babies will toast all that moves. Besides, their illusion will be great against blackies and medusas since I believe illusions are immune to stoning.

Level 4 Dragon Golems: Just the same as nagas, except they'll suffer retaliations. However, they're immune to stoning and can wreck havoc on the other side of the battlefield, aided by a teleport.

Let's see Chaos:

Level 1 Orcs: Not a very good ranger but a decent level 1 troop should the enemy come closer. Trouble is, against order, YOU have to get close. They're just fine with that big gap between the armies.

Level 1 Bandits: Truly useless in a fight like this. Eating retaliations is just about all I think they'll be worth. They should have add two attacks or something.

Level 2 Medusa: One of my favourite rangers. Trouble is, they can be taken out with forgetfullness which doesn't require line of sight. And while they have decent stats, they're still no match for a magic fist (require LOS, though) or an thunderbolt from a titan.

Level 2 Minotaur: A nice specialty, though unreliable at best. Good for blocking the halflings but they need to get close and can be slowed down easily.

Level 3 Efreet: Nice helping hand for the blackies but needs to watch out for genies and magi since the spells don't result in fireshield counterattack and neither do unblocked rangers.

Level 3 Nightmare: Essential if you want to succeed since you can disable genies for three turns. However, order heroes can easily dispel or even exorcise it and that means a wasted round. Usually people have two heroes per army to cast spells so terror against an enemy hero will be cured too. However, it will mean that the enemy second hero will waste a round in exorcising that spell and that means that your medusas will have one more shot while your blackies have a chance to take out the hero.

Level 4 Hyrdras: Not really worth it. Enemy heroes can blind, berserk or teleport it away. I don't know if berserked hydras attack all adjacent friendly troops, but if they do, you're in big trouble.

Level 4 Black Dragons: The true threat that order faces since it's immune to all spells. Plus it can probably reach the other side in one turn and attack multiple troops/heroes. However, side tactics can be used. Genies can clone titans which can perform melee to eat up the retaliation and the rest of the troops can gang upon them. Magi will be totally ineffective but nagas or DGs can do some serious damage if not taken care of. Halflings and titans, aided by precision, will be quite effective as well.

Next, the magic spells:

Here order clearly wins against Chaos. In the late game when you have grandmaster order, the enemy chaos spellcaster doesn't stand a chance. His only chance might be using disintegrate on your hero since I don't know if it prevents the potion of immortality from working or not (it does say that the troops can't be resurrected till the end of combat). However, with spells like berserk, blind, mass slow, teleport, forgetfulness, and even power drain, the order heroes can make life hell for the chaos army and spellcaster. Even chaos's mana flare and mass misfortune are not up to it. Their only life saver might be the cloud of confusion that could take out several troops for a round. But chaos will have to rely a lot on luck, esp in the late game.

In the early game, the odds are much better for chaos because the heroes are easier to take out and the number or troops are less so your direct damage spells are more effective.

Phew! Any comments?
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reid
reid

Tavern Dweller
posted November 23, 2002 03:09 PM

Agent00BLeRD, a nice analyst u've got there.but i wish to add to something else to the magic part. u seem to forgotten that chaos have a spell called cats' reflex which when cast on medusas can yield devastating effects, esp on titans who haf used up thier retaliations by the bandits and genies(the stoning ability would be much greater). Mass misfortune would even make things worse for the titans by causing them to take more damage from spells such as implosion, chain lightning and distingerate which r already wery powerful against order creatures which do not haf much hit points.

Cloud of Confusion will also work very against if the caster is able to cast it on many people, esp on heroes and lvl 4s. Pain mirror is quite useless as a lvl 5 spell and will not do much damage. And the strength of order's creatures are not as good as chaos creatures which mean that its up to the order heroes to turn the tide of the battle. therefore if they r put out of commision, the odds of the order army are going to be quit high.

Hydras wif cats' reflex will also be great if they r attacking a tightly group of creatures which haf confusion cast on them.

Genies can be easily killed by black dragons. so, medusas and efreeties could deal wif the titans before the black dragon step in to finish off the titans.

halflings can be easily finished off wif bandits and orcs as i believed the stats of chaos' lvl 1 creature r higher than order's lvl 1s.

these r my opinions and i believed that chaos is a better choice than order.



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Medusa
Medusa


Famous Hero
Yeah, right
posted November 23, 2002 03:20 PM

I usually play with chaos, because of it's strong creatures and damage spells. But i agree that order is also good, if we won't count magi- they're soooo weak....
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Nidhgrin
Nidhgrin


Honorable
Famous Hero
baking cookies from stardust
posted November 23, 2002 05:47 PM

Order or chaos...  An interesting question.  If purely looked at the creatures I'd say chaos all the way.  The medusa's are incredibly powerful, both level 3 and 4 creatures are especially devastating and without heroes an order army will be toast in a couple of turns.  Even with Titan's chaos ward and the genies.

Chaos has a number of very valuable high level spells such as cloud of confusion, cat reflexes and mass first strike (and mass slayer), these are nice, especially combined with the excellent damage spells.  Unfortunately they're no match for high level order spells that can decrepify a comlete army in a couple of turns.  Steal all spells, hypnotize, pain mirror (on hydra's or efreet lol), blind, mass slow, teleport (medusa's anyone...), mass dispel, mass blur, ... the list is long.  I'd say an order army with weak, lower leveled heroes against an equally powerful chaos army will be crushed like a bug.  Whereas an order army with strong (high defense/magic resistance) heroes against a similar chaos army will win with glance.  I'm deliberately leaving other magic schools out of this as they could greatly influence the outcome of a battle.  I think chaos troops are more powerful, order spells rule (when casted by heroes that do not fall in round 1).

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Agent00BLeRD
Agent00BLeRD


Adventuring Hero
posted November 26, 2002 12:08 PM

I know that cat reflexes spell but I can't quite remember what it does...*checks up cat reflexes* oooohhh nice. Very very nice. Put that on a hyrdra and you're kickin'. That is indeed a very useful spell esp on a level 4. Two attacks!

The problem that still remains is that in the late game, even though you have a massive number of creatures, your heroes are quite powerful. True that not even a level 30 hero stands a chance against 20 black dragons but keep in mind that he will move first because of all those mercenary camps.

Thus, if it's the order hero first, he'll surely cast a mass slow spell to delay the chaos forces. And chaos is hard to have the means to dispel them (life magic or order magic). This will mean that in the first round, he will have slowed down the chaos army and the second hero will have probably teleported their hero in front of his titans so he can be taken out easily (I'm not sure, but I think teleport works even on GM magic resistance heroes. Can someone confirm this?) This will mean one less spellcaster on chaos's side. Or he could throw a berserk (no LOS) or hypnotize (I'm not sure about the LOS requirement but it probably works on heroes). And all of this will be occuring before the creatures have moved. From all of them, the black dragon will probably move first, unless the order hero has tactics (meaning his titans or genies move first) and will luckily take down a hero or even two if they're adjacent, but they'll both be resurrected by the potion of immortality. Then, the slowed down chaos army and hero will have to wait while the genies create illusions, the titans and halflings shoot and the medusas are "songed" by the single genie stack that many people keep. This first round will be so damaging that the rest of the combat will shift in order's favour.

The basic problem with chaos will be the "maintenance" of spells. They won't be able to dispel the bad spells on their army and, thanks to steal all spells, won't be able to keep that cat reflex or mass slayer on their army for long. Therefore, while the chaos army will be hard pressed to destroy the order heroes, the order army will be taking out the chaos army.

The chaos hero will have some more useful spell, cancellation (lvl 1 death, and probably available in a chaos town) for illusions and magic mirror on medusas or something (but even it can be stolen).

On the other hand, the order hero, should he have the luck to reach a grandmastery in life magic (It's not that hard if you happen to have some altars of life around) or if his second hero is specialized in life magic, he will have the infinitely useful Divine Intervention or whatever that spell which resurrects fallen heroes. And resurrection of fallen heroes is bad news for chaos. Add to that a guardian angel with 5-8 extra lives and that's a nasty problem. Even 20 blackies will remove just one life per round.

And although it's not that effective, or maybe it is, should the order hero be a wizard king (easily done with the help of a university), he'll be able to misfortune at least a few important troops, if not all of them, once he's through casting spells...misfortune that chaos will probably not be able to remove.

It all comes to whether the chaos army has a mass exorcism spell or not since it will probably decide the outcome of battle. I'm not sure but I think it's a level 3 life spell, and will be difficult for the chaos army to acquire.

And if worse comes to worst...the order hero can town gate and save his derriere
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csarmi
csarmi


Supreme Hero
gets back
posted November 26, 2002 10:06 PM
Edited By: csarmi on 27 Nov 2002

"and no target is protected more than once"

So your hero has only 2 lives.
And no, your spells won't work on my Grandmaster Magic Resistance hero. I'll also have the spells to cancel yours (for example those illusions and your Mass Slow).


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tree
tree


Adventuring Hero
posted November 27, 2002 08:39 AM

order has some cheap spells....like if chaos use slayer, cat reflex, or stuff like that, order can just use one mass steal enchantment and everything's gone.......also those other spells are cheap too.  teleport slow units away and shoot...that makes hydra useless.  Forgetfulness nails medusa.  Dispel dispels terror.  So only good thing chao has left against order is black dragon which is some kind of problem, but big stack of titan or dragon golem (especially dragon golem) should have some advantage over them, as big stack of golem can do many many damage and reduce the strength of dragon greatly.  Another good unit is efreet, they can act as cannonfolder and do massive damage to golems, but again if order use titan they are useless.  Chao has some damaging spells, but they are not as useful in big battles in H4 as those blessings or cursings.  
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csarmi
csarmi


Supreme Hero
gets back
posted November 27, 2002 01:02 PM
Edited By: csarmi on 27 Nov 2002

Will Chaos Ward affect Fire Shield? I don't think so.
Your Genies have no ward anyways.

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UncleJR
UncleJR


Adventuring Hero
posted November 27, 2002 01:12 PM

Chaos v Order

Once again we have gone into the "my dad can beat up your dad" area.

**sigh**

Ok, yes the medusa have the nice stoning capability, but they don't always work.  And there's no guarantee exactly how many they'll stone either.

Also, both seem to be under the assumption that you have fully built up heroes and all spells available to them.

How often does this happen?  I mean, it would have to be a very large map, lots of goodies out there to scarf up, and loads of good luck getting just exactly what you want.

In the end, it all boils down to playing style.  What are you comfortable with?  

Personally, I play either life or order, if given the chance to choose.  But once again, that's just my personal style, and my own "comfort zone".  

This game is so balanced that I don't see where one particular magic specialty has a big advantage over any other.  They're all pretty much balanced out, or at least as best as they can.


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tree
tree


Adventuring Hero
posted November 27, 2002 11:57 PM

Actually for the titan against efreet part, i mean titan can shoot efreet down.  Efreets won't reach titan in one round (unless titans are placed improperly), so there is one round that titan do full shooting to efreet.  Fire shield is useless against ranged.....but other wise, order will pay dearly for that (once I lost many dragon golem for killing a stack of efreet)
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tree
tree


Adventuring Hero
posted November 28, 2002 12:13 AM

also, some cheap order spells are not very hard to get...steal enchantment, teleport, there's a very big chance of getting these.  About chao's blessing spells...they hardly have any effect in battle, as they will be used against themselves.  Those stealing won't require a very high hero.  

Also, about picking on troops...though bandits or orcs might be better than halfling, but enemy don't always have to let lv1 creature against lv1 creature.  And black dragons won't always reach enemy in 1 round.  
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Agent00BLeRD
Agent00BLeRD


Adventuring Hero
posted November 29, 2002 12:15 PM

'Once again we have gone into the "my dad can beat up your dad" area.'

I laughed long and loud at this. Yup, this is exactly what's going on.

And you're also right about us imagining we have fully developed heroes. As far as I know, getting master level of a magic class is quite easy since it only requires expert level of the "spell point giving skill" and advanced level of the "efficiency increasing skill". But if you consider an average map, your hero will definitely have order magic to the master level if nothing else. I'm not sure, but you could easily get at least two level 18-22 heroes when the time for the final battle comes. And that includes a master order magic, a master life magic, two grandmaster combats, and a few other things of your choice. So it's really not that hard.

Considering that order magic has the lord heroes, his town will also have that extra growth bonus. Grandmaster nobility requires only expert mining and estated, probably the third easiest skill to grandmaster (combat is first, followed by scouting).

Now it all depends upon the playing style as well as the duration of the game. The longer the game plays, the greater the armies (hence greater the bonus that lord heroes give to order), the lesser the effectiveness of direct damage spells by heroes (ice bolt, magic fist, half the chaos spells), the greater the effectiveness of status spells and illusions by genies (mass slow, berserk, hypnotize, cat reflexes, mass misfortune, cloud of confusion etc) and the greater the spell points that heroes have.

Chaos has an advantage in the early game since starting order troops are weak in defense while starting chaos troops are quite sturdy and since the heroes don't know many spells. In the late game, the balance slowly shifts towards order primarily because of their spells and also because of the nobility bonus. But most of this depends upon the map. If chaos has a good university outside it's town, it might learn nobility and life magic severely hampering order's abilities.

As for the original question, "YES! My dad CAN beat up your dad."

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EmperorSly
EmperorSly


Known Hero
Destroyer of Liver
posted November 29, 2002 03:39 PM

even when everything is not developed to the max (or especially then), mr. proper cleans up the mess.

the biggest threat from chaos is african american dragons. fortunately, they fly over to your side on their own initiative, and become delicious nagafood.

then theres the dope dealers. no worry, just teleport the medusi to your side, and feed them to the golems who just dont get stoned.

and dont forget the pain mirror -- if the armies are big enough, give the mirror to your weakest bastards, and let them die. they take with them more lives than a disintegrate ever could (unless the disintegrating hero is some level 50, which he normally aint).

and should you be lucky to learn to hypnotize, everything will be in order.

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csarmi
csarmi


Supreme Hero
gets back
posted November 29, 2002 05:52 PM

Why do you think the chaos troops are not immune to Hypnotize?
Why do you think they don't have 50% magic resitance?

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Agent00BLeRD
Agent00BLeRD


Adventuring Hero
posted December 02, 2002 12:31 PM

I don't remember seeing a single chaos troop with a magic resistance specialty, except for ol' blackie and efreet (fire only).

And since Titans have chaos ward, they'll take half damage from disintegrate and fire shield and will also have a 50% chance of resisting cloud of confusion and misfortune.
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tree
tree


Adventuring Hero
posted December 03, 2002 01:57 AM

yea.....and also don't forget golem, dwarf, and dragon golem.  They have some magical resistance too.  Dragon golem is immune to chao's most favored magic stoning and terror.  

For chaos, against the above, nightmare will be wasted, so does medusa.  They may use minotaur and efreet instead...which can be a headache.  It feels bad when robo dragon bites the ox, but got blocked, and ox fight back and kills some.  Or after one bite, robo dragon died together with the efreet.
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