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Heroes Community > Heroes 4 - Lands of Axeoth > Thread: Survival: what to do agains DEATH?
Thread: Survival: what to do agains DEATH?
EmperorSly
EmperorSly


Known Hero
Destroyer of Liver
posted December 10, 2002 06:06 PM

Survival: what to do agains DEATH?

We all fear Death. Or at least should, with no Buffy around to save us from this everincreasing army of vampires. And unless mindless, we fear the bone dragons for sure.

Seriously, nearly everyone seems to agree that Death is damn strong, next to invincible. So does anyone have good ideas how to beat these bastards? Even the almighty hypnotize doesnt help against (most of) them, nor can you blind or berserk the vampires.

Logic would say Death must fear its opposite -- Life. After all, it has death ward, ways to heal plague, song of peace (can't remember, does it work on undead?) and sanctuary to keep opponents inactive, and lots of ranged creatures to shoot. Yet the gurus say life is weak, and more than sucks: it gets sucked dead by vampires.

THEN WHAT CAN BEAT DEATH?

Order, by teleporting vampires away, and shooting them with titans, and attacking with golems?

Or Chaos, by disintegrating them?

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pepak
pepak


Adventuring Hero
posted December 10, 2002 07:42 PM

Anything can beat death, as long as you are fast. Remember, you need Level 12 or so hero in order to hope for GM Necromancy, probably more since you won't get offered the right skills. You only need Level 8-10 for GM Combat GM Melee/Archery hero, who can solve the problem once and for all :-). Of course, if you while away until your opponent accumulates hundreds of vampires, you are in deep trouble...

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Laelth
Laelth


Famous Hero
Laelth rhymes with stealth.
posted December 10, 2002 07:52 PM

Several things can be done to combat death.  My favorite strategy is to play order against them.  Take the gold golems and the dragon golems (the vampires can't regain hit points from attacking them).  Use genies to create illusionary creatures to fight the vampires, etc.  Don't charge across the tactical map at a death opponent.  Vampires are fast.  Stay back and make the vamps come to you.

Another strategy is to play on maps that favor other alignments.  Death, on top of all its other advntages, is cheap, in the sense that it's easier to get the mansion built than nearly any other 3rd lvl. generator.  So, play on a richer map, one that neutralizes that advantage.  Or, try my newest map "Dry County Blues," in which the tavern is disabled in the starting towns, preventing death from even building the mansion.

You can find the map here:
http://www.vandea.com/homm/maps.html

Death is still strongest, but there are strategies for minimizing its strengths.

-Laelth
____________
Alan P. Taylor, Attorney at Law, LLC

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csarmi
csarmi


Supreme Hero
gets back
posted December 10, 2002 09:35 PM

I think that Barbarian is stronger. At least on some type of maps. Why would I wait till the enemy has dozens of Vampires?

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EmperorSly
EmperorSly


Known Hero
Destroyer of Liver
posted December 10, 2002 11:14 PM

right, ppl -- death wont rule in its infancy. yet i would say you normally dont have the chance to barbarically rush in on the second week to prevent the vampires from ever happening -- at that time you might not even know where the necro is, let alone walking up it. by start of the second month (typically the earliest chance to take care of the enemy once and for all) there are aleady vampires galore, and GM-Combat-everything hero wont suffice. golems are helpful of course. only problem is the vampires will prefer a different meal as long as they have the choice. and when you have only golems left, you have already lost the battle.

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Lich_King
Lich_King


Honorable
Supreme Hero
posted December 11, 2002 08:21 AM

Well Everything I need from death is - A level:8 Necromancer with Master Death and spell "Vampiric touch"
____________

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DarkVenom
DarkVenom


Adventuring Hero
Grandmaster Daywalker
posted December 11, 2002 09:15 AM

Well, Death is weak against itself! Not only most of the spells don't work against undead creature but that damn vampire can't suck!

Anyway, Death is weak at start. A Death army with a bunch of Skeleton, some Ghost and a small number of Vampire can be taken out by the same amount of army from other town. Death's strength increase with number of creature it has. Vampire are not very strong at small amount. In that case, Cyclops is even better! Death's spells are next to useless at lvl 1 or 2. So better to take out Death sonner than later when he got GM Necromancer, Vampric Touch and Hand of Death!

I think Holy Sound does pretty amount of damange and a must to use against Death!
____________
A dead has no weakness of a living.

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csarmi
csarmi


Supreme Hero
gets back
posted December 11, 2002 11:59 AM

Vampire is very strong even in small numbers. You have 2-3 Vampires and you can take on almost all neutrals.

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terje_the_ma...
terje_the_mad_wizard


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
posted December 11, 2002 12:06 PM

Another problem with the Death alignment, is that the BoneD-cave is really cheap and easy to get, while i.e. Cloud Castle (Order is my personal favourite) is pretty hard to get (unless you are lucky enough to have a gem mine nearby).
I don't know any ways to defeat Death, since I'm a puny little Novice, but ther're pretty neat to be though..

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XeroK00L
XeroK00L

Tavern Dweller
posted December 11, 2002 08:25 PM
Edited By: XeroK00L on 11 Dec 2002

Quote:
I think that Barbarian is stronger. At least on some type of maps. Why would I wait till the enemy has dozens of Vampires?
On maps where players can rush, Death is just as good at rushing.
It is very easy to build a mansion (2nd or 3rd day) and accumulate about 5 vamps (7 days later) and defeat just about any alignment of opponents in the same period of game.
I've successfully rushed with Death in Maranthea's Isle for a couple of times, once against Life, the other time against Order.
Not sure what would happen if against Might but vamps should still win IMHO.
____________

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csarmi
csarmi


Supreme Hero
gets back
posted December 11, 2002 08:34 PM

At day 9 I have 2 (at least) level 6-7 Barbs and all my creatures (except Zerks). Do you think you can rush me with 5 Vampires?

Your precious Vampires are all dead in 1-2 turns.

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tree
tree


Adventuring Hero
posted December 12, 2002 01:39 AM

First, vamps are too strong.  Second, they are too many, especially later on.  And they appear quite early too.  Death heavily rely on them, and it makes death tough...so it's hard to beat death.
____________

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Agent00BLeRD
Agent00BLeRD


Adventuring Hero
posted December 12, 2002 01:27 PM

An orderly solution?

This basically is a battle in the late game because it involves some high level spells, but I think this is sufficient to counter the large number of vamps that death will have at that point.

Disclaimer: This battle is totally the work of my imagination. I have absolutely no experimental evidence to back this up. In simpler words, it might be a load of bull for all I know, but "I think" it will work.

First of all, mass slow (in the late game, heroes usually move first). Essential to slow down them vamps, and any other fliers they have. Next with your second hero, do something about one of their heroes unless you want hands of death on yours. Blind them, berserk them, whatever. Just make sure their heroes don't get to cast a mass sorrow or something, cuz that's gonna hurt a lot.

Next, with a single genie stack, "song" the other hero. The genie will move first assuming that mass slow was effective on the enemy heroes (wasn't resisted) and of course if the hero didn't have an abysmal amount of speed. Now you've neutralized their heroes for this round and your real army has still to make their move.

First, probably, the real stack of genies will go. Create illusions of vampires, not bonies, cause the vampire illusions won't get retaliated (bonies' fear won't affect dead units) or drained and send him over to attack the enemy vamps or something better, like their hero(es). If you have a high number of genies, the hero might even die, if he doesn't have a high level and/or GM combat. On the other hand, you could simply start stacking the illusions round after round but keep in mind that the death hero can simply cancel them with a level one spell so it's essential to take them out first.

With magi, poison the heroes for a quick kill. Or with golems, wait for the vamps to come close. With halflings, go for the bonies or vamps, whichever bothers most. With titans, same thing.

If you keep this thing good for one round, the next round will probably give your heroes the first move allowing you to cast mass precision on your troops or forgetfulness on their venom spawns while your second hero and single genie neutralizes their heroes again (or if you've already killed a hero, then your second hero can cast another useful spell like teleport).

Well, it sounds a bit vague and depends a lot upon chance as I read it again, but the basic strategy is to not let their heroes have a turn to cast a spell. Order's strength lies in their spells. And since death might have a few order spells up their sleeve as well, you need to disable their heroes. Even vamps can be taken care of if slowed and teleported, but you have to be careful lest you're hit by a mass cancellation or mass dispel.

As I said, it's all hypothetical. I don't know if it will really work against a human player. I've tried to follow this strategy and it works against the AI, but human players will be cleverer.


____________

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csarmi
csarmi


Supreme Hero
gets back
posted December 12, 2002 01:42 PM

Song of Peace is a Line of Sight spell.

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Agent00BLeRD
Agent00BLeRD


Adventuring Hero
posted December 13, 2002 01:17 PM

Yeah and heroes are usually in the front lines. Even the magic based heroes, because they're better at taking damage than the other troops. But you're right. If his heroes aren't that strong physically, he'll have put them somewhere back. Then you might wanna go for some side tactics, like displacing the stack in front of him, or better yet, teleporting his derierre over to your side so your army can kick the hell outta him.
____________

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DarkVenom
DarkVenom


Adventuring Hero
Grandmaster Daywalker
posted December 14, 2002 09:41 AM

Quote:
i've been death for a long time. the only thing to fear about death is that the spell death hand can instantly kill a certan # of stack depending on there level when i had is i can kill 8 titans instantly.
Of course, my necromancer kill 12 creature instantly and I can cast them three time before my mana run out! So total of 36 Titan are goner.

But this spells cost a whole lot of mana point!
____________
A dead has no weakness of a living.

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Double-T
Double-T

Tavern Dweller
posted December 17, 2002 11:37 PM

EASY QUESTION!!!!!!!!!!

If ur opponent is death and u arent, U cant do anything if he/she has Grandmaster Necromancery. Those vampires are impossible to kill...that`s why i dont play against death if its allowed to use death:


LOL but true

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EvilLoynis
EvilLoynis


Famous Hero
The Dark Shadow
posted December 18, 2002 04:15 AM

Out Lasting Death

    Too many people complain about death.  I mean there are quite a few strategy to beat them.

    If your Order take the Golems and Dragon Golems and also probally the Genies.  That takes care of death.

    If your barbarian Have your Cyclopses take out his hero then you don't have to worry about those high level spells.  Then have your hero and your Behemouths take care of his Vamps.

    If your Chaos have those Minotaurs Help take them out and he might not even doany damage retaliating. Have those Effreet kick but with there fire shield.  And last but not least have your Hydras.

    If your life I shouldn't even need to say anything.

    I am not too sure what to do with nature, but those summoned creatures like elentals don't get the life sucked out of them I think.

    Now I have never had a Death vs Death fight so that would be very interesting I think
____________

"I am both selfish and instictive.  I value nature and the world around me as means to an end as well as an end in itself; at best I ... too long to display...

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winchestergirl
winchestergirl


Hired Hero
posted February 25, 2011 01:38 AM

Order is great against death!

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TheUnknown
TheUnknown


Known Hero
posted February 25, 2011 02:32 AM
Edited by TheUnknown at 02:34, 25 Feb 2011.

Every faction can be great against them. The problem is in the massive number that makes you focus on the vampire and lets their other units come into play.

Order can use dragon golems, genies and gold golems to kill the vampires, but against order I would chose devils (and ghosts if we use level 2) and go into killing the enemy heroes. Also against order you must use heroes that have chaos magic in case your enemy has mechanical creatures, otherwise it will be painful to deal with them physically.

Life can use crusaders, balistae and any level 4 (both are great against vampires). I would go with ghosts and devils (both have damage reducing abilities), against angels you can use hand of death, against champions you can use vampiric touch, and be sure to have good counter with your order spell school.

Nature's lvl3 are bad against vampires so they will ignore them, level 2 will not be used, level 4 are both good(not great) against vampires. The key against vampires is the creature portal, be it's elemental creatures or the mantis, they can do wonders. Against nature I would go cerberus and bone dragons because of the massive hp, the thing I need to take care of is anti magic, dragon strength and chaos magic damaging my heroes and I need to be sure to cast hand of death on the mantises or blind on the elementals.

Chaos choice is minotaurs, efreets and any level 4 (most likely hydras). I would go bone dragons as if the enemy has black dragons you just cast a vampiric touch and the enemy is done for, need to look out for damaging spells and cancellation. If enemy has hydras then hand of death takes priority unless anti magic comes into play.

Might can go any level 3 and 4 creatures against vampires. Cyclops + Behemoths will be the most likely choice to counter enemy heroes as they're the true problem. If I decide to attack fast, Behemoths will turn me into ash, if I wait Cyclopes will smash me with the rocks, so what to do? I would go with minimal Death, more Chaos and maximal Order magic, creatures would be Bone dragons and vampires only, nothing else.

Death would have vampires, bone dragons and ghosts against Death, so would I. Spells would be little Death more Order and most Chaos.

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