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| Thread: Creatures and towns that we DON'T want to see. | |
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Marelt_Ekiran
Promising
Famous Hero
Watcher of All
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posted June 27, 2003 01:00 AM |
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Creatures and towns that we DON'T want to see.
There have been many suggestions about things that could possibly go into the Heroes series, but as we all know, the fan community is highly critical of what actually goes in there. I remember reading that some members of NWC received death threads concerning the implementation of the Forge town (I hope it was a joke). And even know, many people are speaking out there disgust about the venom spawn and the expansion pack creatures.
Therefore, this is the place to gather everything that we don't want to see in the Heroes series. The Forge is on the list and creatures like the Frenzied Gnasher also deserve a place there. However, to prevent is better than to sure. That is why I encourage everyone to include things that could possibly go in there, but that we don't want.
Undesired creatures:
Anything that comes from the real world and came into existance after 1200 AD (European civilization). So no...
- Cannons, tanks, guns, flamethrowers and anything related.
- Suicide bombers, guerillas and other members of modern groups.
- Things fly without wings or the help of magic.
- Mechanics from beyond 1200 AD. They may claim that they use magic as the source of energy, but then the design should be simple and indeed constructed by magic. The golem is fine, the dragon golem is pressing the limit.
Anything that is merely a redesigned animal with a fancy name. Either take the real animal or think of something unique. So no...
- Animal crosses, like a boarwolf, a crocophant, a tigersnake, etc.
- Frenzied gnashers and related creatures.
- Humanated animals, there are many variants of these.
*Exceptions are allowed if the creature has a unique mythological name and background.
No more than two or three variants of the same creature, unless the different variants have unique atributes (not counting upgrades).
- Black and Gold dragon could be fine (if you really need more creatures) but nothing beyond that.
- Bone dragon and Fearie dragon have unique attributes, so they don't bother me.
- Nothing beyond the classic 4 elementals.
- There are only so many different ways in which you can dress and name a human. Don't overdo it. Spread the humans a bit throughout the towns.
Creatures can be invented and do not have to be based on mythology, on the following conditions:
- The creature is solely an invention of NWC or the community and does not originate from another modern source.
- The creature is not just an existing real or mythological creature with a fancy name and perhaps a few tentacles and claws attached.
The creature does not look unnecessary slimy and disgusting (venom spawn is pressing the limit).
Undesired towns:
Even though some creatures have different backgrounds, most of Heroes is based on the medieval feudal system of Europe. Don't go out of scope too much.
- No towns based on a civilization other than the focus.
- No towns outside the time period of 1000 BC to 1200 AD, both in real world and myth.
Towns need to stay consistent and focus on their theme.
- The undead-demon mixture was a bad idea. No such thing in the future, please.
- Asylum-Fortress mixture is possible, as long as all creature have somewhat of a link to the swamps.
- No water town, because those creatures could not go on land if you want to be consistent.
- Any mixture between two themes should be presented to the community, in order to decide whether it is a good idea. More often than not, it is not.
Feel free to add to the list.
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Perception is everything.
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CountZero
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 27, 2003 01:22 AM |
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The "fan community" does not speak with one voice. In fact this forum is just a tiny tiny fraction of Heroes players. The idea that "we" decide if something is good or bad is imo flawed. H5 will either sell or not sell.
As to your ideas about undesirable attributes for H5, I agree with most of what you list. I think that what has been outlined is very sensible and relatively uncontraversial.
I would add:
- No powerless spectator heroes
- No upgrades
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vladpopescu79
Promising
Famous Hero
a vampire of taste
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posted June 27, 2003 01:40 AM |
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I would ban from heroes:
-creatures that are not creatures (but mechanical) and act with own will = ballista
-funny creatures = satyrs, leprechauns
-real creatures like lions, tigers, dogs, etc.
-no insects and plants, please
-no "updated to nowadays" creatures like vampires in tuxedo
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MANE, TEKEL, FARES
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted June 27, 2003 03:14 AM |
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Edited By: Djive on 26 Jun 2003
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Quote:
Anything that comes from the real world and came into existance after 1200 AD (European civilization). So no...
Standard cannons are much older than 1200 AD.
Suicide bombers is probably also an ancient tactics.
Quote:
Anything that is merely a redesigned animal with a fancy name. Either take the real animal or think of something unique. So no...
I don't see what is wrong with Frenzied Gnashers. A game need 2-5 new creatures in the category of new creatures or it wouldn't feel like a new fresh game rather than a rehash of what's already been done before.
Humanoid animals should be present in the game to a fairly large extent. I don't like Humans being the centre of every type of civilization. It ruins my feeling of fantasy if everything is human based.
Humans in every town kind of ruins the identity of the individual towns.
I don't believe Heroes is or should be based on medieval feudal Earth system at all. It's a fantasy game with is a lot different to this system. The feudal system would not look the way it looked if Earth had a great magical influence so there is no reason to make the game look like the feudal system.
The towns have to be based on the type of civilization that could be expected there and the intelligent races who live there. Humans should only have one town. Elves should have another, and the undead a third. The other will have to grow from the background story and what is appropriate.
Basing an Elf town or Undead town on Earth medieval system is really very awkward. Do they actually have anything at all in common with each other?
An undead /demon town detracts from a single theme for a single town, so i agree with that one.
A water town could be possible if you base it on flyers and amphibians. Most reptiles are amphibians so perhaps you could use crocodiles, snakes, turtles, basilisks and lizards for it. Complement with a few reptile fliers and you have a town. The problem is for the other town to capture it, though I guess you could allow attacking the town from a ship.
I also disagree with Vladpopescu so just to state my opinions:
- Creatures should make players laugh. (This is a game and you partly play because it's fun.)
- The H4 Vampire is just fine.
- I don't mind insects, plants or animals. A healthy amount of these are both to be expected and desired.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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vladpopescu79
Promising
Famous Hero
a vampire of taste
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posted June 27, 2003 03:36 AM |
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Just to disagree with Djive:
Actually the cannon is not older than 1200 AD.
The first usable cannon in Europe is used in the siege of the Constantinopole, by the turks (under the Mehmet II). The date is 1453. 29 may.
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MANE, TEKEL, FARES
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CountZero
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 27, 2003 05:02 AM |
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Quote:
I would ban from heroes:
-no "updated to nowadays" creatures like vampires in tuxedo
But the H4 vampire is such a sharp dresser and emits such a cultured "Blah". He is a joy to command.
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IYY
Responsible
Supreme Hero
REDACTED
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posted June 27, 2003 05:11 AM |
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The H4 vampire tux might have been a bit much, but I did like the H2 vampire who also had a similar not-quite-so-medieval look.
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Lordskeleton
Adventuring Hero
The really REALLY bad guy
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posted June 27, 2003 10:06 PM |
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Quote:
/Anything that comes from the real world and came into existance after 1200 AD Quote:
Pop quiz:
During which century did king "Dracul"(his nickname) order some peasants to be impaled with their heads placed upon spikes for his amusement during dinner?
I'm all for banning the crossbreeds, though it would be fun to see a crocophant. Also, I don't believe leprechauns belong in any army. If anything, they are not soldiers, you can't compensate that by letting their numbers go into inflation. I mean, in H2, when you saw a leprechaun, you, at least I got the feeling that this was the place where he'd decided to remain for the moment, being bullied of his allowance once a week for the wellbeeing of my realm.
Now all of a sudden, there are hundreds of them. Add to that their sudden bloodthirst, and I start to think somethings gone terribly wrong. I don't care if they make me laugh, as soon as they leave their peaceful little glen, they are as good as dead. Better they stay in the forests and stop multiplying like there is no tomorrow.
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Vad gagnar det en människa om han vinner hela världen men förlorar sin själ?
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vladpopescu79
Promising
Famous Hero
a vampire of taste
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posted June 28, 2003 01:21 AM |
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"Pop quiz:
During which century did king "Dracul"(his nickname) order some peasants to be impaled with their heads placed upon spikes for his amusement during dinner? "
I live in the same town this king did. So I know the answer. But mind that "Dracul" was not a king, and it was not him but his son that did that. Moreover, mind that he did not do that for amusement. What you know is only the slander of his enemies. It is more to it than that.
My quiz: what is it that I'm talking about? 
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MANE, TEKEL, FARES
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Lordskeleton
Adventuring Hero
The really REALLY bad guy
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posted June 28, 2003 10:17 AM |
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Well, after what I've been told, he's the one that started the whole count Dracula myth. And the reason I posted was because I wasn't sure whether he lived before or after 1200AD. Suppose you know? Anyway, since you live there, do you know the real story about him and his son? Cause this is only what I've read.
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Vad gagnar det en människa om han vinner hela världen men förlorar sin själ?
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vladpopescu79
Promising
Famous Hero
a vampire of taste
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posted June 29, 2003 01:23 AM |
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Quote:
Well, after what I've been told, he's the one that started the whole count Dracula myth. And the reason I posted was because I wasn't sure whether he lived before or after 1200AD. Suppose you know? Anyway, since you live there, do you know the real story about him and his son? Cause this is only what I've read.
No, that's not really true... all started with his son, and the story (absolute fiction=Dracula) is based upon the rank of his father and his deeds. But not as you know them. Vlad Tepes (he's the son) lived and ruled around 1450.I promise to write it for you (I've already wrote it sometime last year, I tried to find it for you and give you the link but I couldn't...) but not now...Thanks for your understanding. (and there is no relationship between him and me even if we're the same nationality, forname and live in the same town... )
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MANE, TEKEL, FARES
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Lith-Maethor
Honorable
Legendary Hero
paid in Coin and Cleavage
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posted June 29, 2003 01:33 AM |
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more info on Vlad Tepes...
follow the black bat
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You are suffering from delusions of adequacy.
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Gerdash
Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
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posted June 29, 2003 06:51 PM |
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hmm.. why just 1200? ok, the vampire thing is older than the dracula, but what about e.g. knight armor? should it be earlier than 1200? i am all against cannons, though. cannons is one of those stupid things that nwc has not done and hopefully they are not even considering that.
imho a creature can be ugly, but not in a stupid way like the spawn. i guess a medieval artist would have been driven out of any castle or house or worse if he painted something like that. i think i remember that even the impressionists got criticised when they first appeared much later.
i completely agree about not including the creatures from modern fantasy fiction and sticking to their mythological origins instead, and even about sticking to the mythology in europe (imho the goblins in homm2 would have been better without the native american look).
btw isn't the origin of boar-headed orcs or razorbacks connected to the fact that some barbarian people (i guess it must have been celts) had figures of boars on their helms, because boar was their symbol of fearless fury. if so, imho the axe-throwing of the orcs isn't very appropriate, unless the celts were axe-throwers which i strongly doubt, especially in the context of the boar that was the symbol of fury.
and i would prefer mythological elves to tolkien elves anytime. but did non-tolkien elves fight much? people talk about leprechauns not being a proper military creature, but what about faeries? some creatures, including faeries, should not attack directly imho, maybe some illusionism or summoning would be a solution for those.
what's wrong with insects? imho arachne is a perfect mythological insect. some insects just aren't mythological and there's no need to discriminate the mythological ones because of them.
btw about crocophant.. if it would be an elephant with a crocodile's head, it would too much resemble an existing mythological creature. the egyptians had a creature with head of a crocodile, mane of a lion and hindlegs of a hippopotamus, i don't remember what the forelegs were.
and finally, if we have an army of elves and faeries and druids and it feels ok, why shouldn't we have an army of dendroids? ok, maybe the name '..droid' looks modern, 'walking tree' or something might be better?
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what is the safest way to pass your time? heroes community -- your posts won't affect almost anything
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vladpopescu79
Promising
Famous Hero
a vampire of taste
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posted June 29, 2003 10:31 PM |
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Gerdash, I agree almost perfectly with you.
About the cannons, I still am very afraid, because nwc was really not that far as you imagine from including them (mind that they introduced 19'th century pirates, cyborg-looking dragons and tuxedo-vampires). The disaster was not far away.
Spawn is something that I've never encountered before, at least not in that "unshaped" shape. Horrible. And not by far related to the demons/necros, unless the name accounts for 95% of the creature.
Ranged Orcs are indeed unapropriate. In my scheme of town proposals I included them as melee fighters. Tolkien was closer to reality this time.
i agree that fairies and leprchauns should be pacifyers rather than warriors.
Dendroids and pegasi are a "must return".
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MANE, TEKEL, FARES
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silx87
Supreme Hero
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posted June 29, 2003 10:47 PM |
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I'm not against plants and humans and animals.
boars and wolves have been in homm since h2!
and humans!one town more concentrated on humans is actually nice IMO,like h3 castle or h4 haven,I would still like to see human knights in h5!but no more than 1 human castle,and not entirely a human castle!angels and griffins are nice if they fit.
I agree that too many creatures that look same are a bad idea!no more than a few dragons,no more than the 4 elements.
But I would definately like to see the upgrades back!not on all cre4atures but like h2:some creatures could be upgraded,others not.maybe 2-3 creatres could be upgraded twice.
and machines?like ballistas and catapults?they were nice in h1-3,also the ballista was good in h4,but like already said,not more than 1-2!I wouldn't like to see 2 kinds of catapults and 3 kinds of ballistas with different names!
Moderator's note:This topic has been closed, as it refers to an older version of the game. To discuss Heroes 3, please go to Library Of Enlightenment, to discuss Heroes 4, please go to War Room Of Axeoth, to discuss Heroes 5, go to Temple Of Ashan.
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