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| Thread: Upgraded upgrading system |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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gvozdengrom
Known Hero
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posted September 09, 2009 06:35 AM |
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Upgraded upgrading system
First of all, bear in mind that this is all still in development.
That out of the way on to the bussiniss.
The basic idea is we have only a single non-upgreadable dwelling for each tier, and four upgrade paths that depend upon a number of buildings within the city/castle, but there is only a limited number of 'building slots', or perhaps that the more you build the more expensive the buildings get. Ofc, the higher the tier the more buildings are required. I still have not worked that part out to my satisfaction.
The paths have twofold purpose. One is to give more diversity and customization in army building. The other is that eah of the paths corresponds to one of the primary hero stats, and depending on the predominance of certain path within the army,the hero would get bonuses. There would be several bonuses, depending on the number of tiers of the same path, and which exactly tiers are of that path. If creatures of the same tier, but diferent path were encountered in the same army, the more numerous, or higher health would be the only ones counted for that tier.
I've roughly cathegorized the paths as:
a - Heavy arms (which corresponds to attack)
b - Light arms (defense)
c - Support (knowledge)
d - Magic (spellpower)
So far, I've only worked out the lineup for the haven. I knocked down the number of tiers to 6, since I believe any more would be plain ridiculous; as it is there is a pool of 30 units per faction.
T1: Peasant - The ordinary man of the kingdom, conscripted in the times of war
Dwelling - Howel
T1a: Spearman - The ordinary soldier with basic combat training
NB (necesarry building or buildings) - Barracks
T1b: Yeoman - A freeholding farmer, who defends his land
NB - Fields
T1c: Herbalist - A medic offering his baisc skills
NB - Apothecary
T1d: Hedgemage - A spellcaster of limited capabilities.
NB - Mage guild#1
T2: Bowman - Enlisted person skilled in archery
Dwelling - Target ranges
T2a: Arbalet - Equiped with heavy crosbows that can pierce almost anything.
NB - Barracks; Blacksmith
T2b: Longbowman - The best of archers are given longbows and trained to shoot almost as one
NB - Barracks; Bowyer
T2c: Forester - Skilled scout that can scurry almost anywhere
NB - Fields; Lodge
T2d: Marksman - It is suspected that Marksman's uncanny accuracy is due to magical aides.
NB - Bowyer; Mage guild#2
T3: Swordsman - Higher class of comoneer, capable of afording lessons in swordsmanship
Dwelling - Practice yard
T3a: Squire - A skilled swordsman, geared up with quality armor and weapon by his knight master.
NB - Blacksmith; Armorer
T3b: Footman - A member of a household guard
NB - Armorer; Guardhouse
T3c: Sargent - An expirienced warrior who supervises standard troops
NB - Barracks; Guardhouse
T3d: Vinidicator - A zealous fighter who glories in battle
NB - Armorer; Chapel
T4: Acolyte - A novice in the ranks of church
Dwelling - Chapel
T4a: Templar - A warrior dedicated to the protection of the faith
NB - Armorer; Seminary; Chapterhouse
T4b: Witchunter - one who ranges wherever he needs to fight rogue spellcasters
NB - Loge; Seminary; Courthouse
T4c: Cleric - A priest dedicated to preservation of life
NB - Apothecary; Mage guild#3; Seminary
T4d: Inquisitor - Dreaded destroyer of heresies
NB - Mage guild#3; Courthouse; Dungeon
T5: Cavalier - As of yet unproven knight
Dwelling - Chapterhouse
T5a: Champion - Mightiest of knights attain the honorific of a Champion
NB - Armorer; Castle; Tourney grounds
T5b: Horse Archer - Light cavalryman who harries his foes from distance
NB - Bowyer; Trainer's yard; Horsemaster's office
T5c: Paladin - Knight of a holly order
NB - Armorer; Seminary; Cathedral
T5d: Gryphonrider - Fearless man that manged to tame fierce gryphon for his mount
NB - Loge; Trainer's yard; Aerie
T6: Angel - Divine messenger born on majestic wings
Dwelling - Altar of Light
T6a: Archangel - Divine warrior, sent from heavens
NB - Seminary; Castle; Cathedral; Hall of heroes
T6b: Hashmallim (Dominion) - Lord amongst the Angels
NB - Castle; Capitol; Cathedral; Dominin gate
T6c: Erelim (Throne) - Living symbol of God's justice and authority
NB - Seminary; Courthouse; Cathedral; Seat of Angels
T6d: Seraph - Embodiment of divine light
NB - Fields; Apothecary; Mage Guild#5; Sacred Pyre.
Note that Forester is suposed to be mele, and capable of traversing one and twofield obstructions on the battle map, and witchhunter is capable of teleporting.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted September 09, 2009 06:50 AM |
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Too complex for my liking, two upgrades work fine.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted September 09, 2009 10:04 AM |
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I like this, but I think it will be too complex to come up with 4 upgrades for each unit.
What I would rather see is a complete reworking of the unit upgrade system, so that you don't upgrade in the traditional way to a "new" unit, but rather that your units gain new levels and learn new "skills", a bit like the heroes.
This would be a bit similar to WOG approach, but I'd want more freedom, so that in reality it would be more like Civilization IV unit upgrades. Here you have a wide range of different paths for each unit, for instance you can learn Combat 1-5, which increases basic strength, then you can learn Woodsman 1-3, which adds bonuses like strength and movement when fighting in forest, City Attack 1-3, which gives bonuses when attacking cities, you can learn Medic 1-2, which heals unit and allied units, etc.
The brilliant part of the Civilization system is that when you reach higher levels in a skill, the bonus you receive is BIG, while level 1 typical is a minor bonus. Thus, it pays off to decide on a path to aim at (offensive, tactical, supportive), and then develop fully along this path to receive maximum bonus.
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What will happen now?
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted September 09, 2009 10:40 AM |
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What happens when you mix two stacks with different abilities (say one has attack 2, the other only has attack 1)?
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted September 09, 2009 10:48 AM |
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Quote:
What happens when you mix two stacks with different abilities (say one has attack 2, the other only has attack 1)?
Yes, that is the problem that makes this not transfer directly to Heroes. I haven't found a good solution to that yet, otherwise I would have worked further on the concept.
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What will happen now?
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted September 09, 2009 11:02 AM |
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Man, I love you! I LOVE complex systems, finally, I seem to be not alone here 
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted September 09, 2009 11:10 AM |
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Edited by MattII at 11:12, 09 Sep 2009.
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Yes, that is the problem that makes this not transfer directly to Heroes. I haven't found a good solution to that yet, otherwise I would have worked further on the concept.
Well my thought on the issue was for experience just to upgrade unit stats (attack and defence primarily, but maybe others as well like initiative and minimum damage, and some special abilities like Mana Steal and), so adding new creatures in wouldn't lead to this sort of issue (each stat would have an experience upgrade level, so when the experience evens out you only lose stats).
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Man, I love you! I LOVE complex systems, finally, I seem to be not alone here
complex systems are all well and good, but if you make them too complex many casual gamers will simply give up trying to understand them, which could lead to a drop in sales.
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted September 09, 2009 11:15 AM |
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I alwas though thtere could be some switching...there are some games I know which have that...you choose something like "simple mode" or "advanced mode" and with the first, you can enjoy a simpler game, while the second gives you lot of options, choices and commands.
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gvozdengrom
Known Hero
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posted September 09, 2009 02:20 PM |
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@alcibiades - I'm working on it myself, and frankly, I don't see all that much problem so far
@Jiriki9 - Long live complexities 
@MattII - Homm has casual players? Where had those sprung from?
Joking aside, let's be honest here people. All I'm doing here is playing around. If all you want to say is i dislike it, or it would never work, without any argument to back it up, all you are doing is impersonating petulant children. It's up to you to take it as you will.
Coming next - Sylvan
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Malgore
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 09, 2009 04:11 PM |
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While it seems to be a further development of the existing upgrade system, it is in fact an attempt to bring new unit varieties. I cannot say that it is bad, but two issues will arise immediately:
1. It will definitely pose strong balancing issues since presented concepts for each tier differ strongly. Why to have 4 unbalanced and unspecified units instead of having balanced two?
2. Another issue concerns Faction gameplay style and design - having many alternatives is good but at the same time distinct unit features should be presented to make faction look unique. Wouldn't it be a clone army battle?
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted September 09, 2009 06:37 PM |
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Quote:
1. It will definitely pose strong balancing issues since presented concepts for each tier differ strongly. Why to have 4 unbalanced and unspecified units instead of having balanced two?
I understand your concern on this point, and while I agree that balance can be an issue, focusing on specialising each unit in different areas evens this out, because the need for a specific use may even out the disadvantage of one being a bit less powerful, if that happens to be.
I think some of the most blatant ballance bugs in TotE comes from units with the same purpose - excellent example would be Master Hunter (offensive shooter) and Arcane Archer (better offensive shooter), which obviously makes the Master Hunter obsolete.
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What will happen now?
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gvozdengrom
Known Hero
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posted September 11, 2009 09:32 PM |
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Quote:
I understand your concern on this point, and while I agree that balance can be an issue, focusing on specialising each unit in different areas evens this out, because the need for a specific use may even out the disadvantage of one being a bit less powerful, if that happens to be.
My thought exactly.
Quote:
2. Another issue concerns Faction gameplay style and design - having many alternatives is good but at the same time distinct unit features should be presented to make faction look unique. Wouldn't it be a clone army battle?
No, since not all paths would use the same model as the originall unit. That should be pretty obvious with this lineup.
Now, onto the bussiness. If you don't mind, I'll skip dwellings and NBs this time. If you do mind, say so, and I'll put them in.
Sidenote: I'm a bit late with this because I decided to rework it. I originally intended for treants to be the top dogs here, but than realized it would make too much fuss. Then I deliberated dragons vs phoenixes, and then decided to go with my preferance there.
T1: Pixie - A fast small woodland spirit
T1a: Dryad - Spirit of the tree, her skin is bark, and her hair the blossoms
T1b: Sprite - A lively and oft mischievus fairy
T1c: Sylph - Fairy of wind, often cursed by archers for her habbit of disrupting their shots
T1d: Will'o'Wisp (Wisp) - The most secretive of the fairyfolk, it uses mind affecting magics to protect it's habitat
T2: Satyr - A merry but lazy and wanton gotman, bound as all of his kin to the woods
T2a: Faun - Strong and fiercly protective, Fauns share little of the merry demanour of their cousins
T2b: Se'irim - Gotmen who had their woods devastated become vengfull Se'irim
T2c: Pann - Ancient gotman that is capable of unleashin a blood curdling screem.
T2d: Puck - The most devious and eldirich variety of goatmen
T3: Elf - Skill with bow comes easy to all elves, even those too young to find a true calling of their own
T3a: Bladedancer - Fighting with cat like agility, uncanny accuracy, to an untrained eye, it actually appears that theese elven swordmasters actually dance with their opponents
T3b: Hunter - Swift armed and sure sighted, theese masters of the woodsmanship can launch two arows before any other archer could have even pulled an arrow out of quiver.
T3c: Sharpshooter - Slow and deliberate, arrows fired by Sharpshooter fly at any range with same devastating force, usually to offer missle support to their comrades.
T3d: Treewarden - The Mothertrees themselves sometimes call upon certain of the elves to act as their protection.
T4: Elder - High repute and wisdom are the hallmarks of an elven elder
T5a: Unicorn guard - Only the most respected and virtuous of the elves have the privilege to be born in battle by the majestic Unicorns
T4b: Windrider - The swiftness of theese pegasi born warriors trully lives up to their name
T4c: Druid of the Leaf - Member of the quiet and nutritive druidic sect
T4d: Druid of the wild - Members of this sect concentrate their studies upon the caothic and destructive powers of the nature
T5: Treant - Great beeings of sentient wood.
T5a: Briarwood (Briar treant) - Dark and menacing Briarwoods cruel thorns rend metal as easily as they do flesh
T5b: Sapspitter - Although not much damaging, the sap is so sticky it slows down anything, and as bonus it splashes upon impact
T5c: Tangleroot (Tangler) - Many a foe had found out just how dificult it is to move when a Tangleroot is in vicinity
T5d: Elder Oak - There is no beeing alive that knows more abouth the ways of nature then theese ancient treants
T6: Firebird - Mighty and nearly imortal birds that protect their woodlan habitats from fires and foes.
T6a: Simurgh - The most gargantuan of firebirds, for it's ferocity and loyalty it is also known as dog-bird
T6b: Phoenix - The only of firebirds that is always sheeted in flames
T6c: Huma - The Huma bird is considered to be a compassionate bird and it is named as bird of fortune since its touch is said to be auspicious
T6d: Bennu - The bird of creation and renewal, bennu's power is that of the sun itself
Coming next - necropolis
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted September 11, 2009 09:58 PM |
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Edited by bixie at 22:01, 11 Sep 2009.
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all seems very interesting. your making the situation more rpg as well as strategy.
i would alway thought it was the fauns that were playful and the satyrs were war-like
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Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted September 11, 2009 09:58 PM |
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Edited by MattII at 21:59, 11 Sep 2009.
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Okay, i still think 4 upgrades is really a bit complex, but this looks pretty good.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted September 12, 2009 09:32 AM |
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You somehow messed up with the numbers - one Unicorn (tier 5) is listed among the Druids (tier 4), and then Treants have become tier 5 instead of tier 6 and Phoenii tier 6 instead of tier 7.
Descriptions are fine, but what about abilities? What will be the details of each unit?
@MattII> To answer your previous concern about the system I suggested, the best solution I can offer when you mix stacks would be something like this:
Stack A is upgraded along path 1.
Stack B is upgraded along path 2.
If you mix the stacks, you simply take the average experience along each path. Let's for example assume you gain "levels" along each path similar to Hero, so that to gain levels each units requires:
Level 0: 0 XP
Level 1: 1000 XP
Level 2: 2200 XP
Level 3: 3400 XP
So let's assume, we have two stacks of Peasant:
A = 75 Pesants, level 2 offence, 2400 XP each.
B = 25 Pesants, level 3 defence, 3600 XP each.
When we mix them, we get 100 Pesants with the following experience:
75/100 * 2400 XP + 25/100 * 3600 XP = 2700 XP
So the stack of 100 Pesants are level 2.
Next question would be: Which skills do they know?
This is more difficult, because they each bring something to the table. Taking average we have:
75/100 * 2 levels of offence = 1,5 levels of offence
25/100 * 3 levels of defence = 0,75 levels of defence
So I think a solution could be to say that they have:
1 certain level of offence
+ 40 % chance of having another level of offence (0,5/(0,5+0,75)), or
+ 60 % chance of having another level of defence (0,75/0,5+0,75))
So they have either level 2 offence, or level 1 offence + level 1 defence.
I know it's not picture perfect, but it could work.
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What will happen now?
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted September 12, 2009 01:40 PM |
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Quote:
You somehow messed up with the numbers - one Unicorn (tier 5) is listed among the Druids (tier 4), and then Treants have become tier 5 instead of tier 6 and Phoenii tier 6 instead of tier 7.
No, that's all in the right place, the tier 4 upgrades are a Unicorn rider, a Pegasus rider and a couple of Druids. There is no tier 7 (check with the Haven on the opening post, 6 tiers).
Quote:
I know it's not picture perfect, but it could work.
It could work, but it's complicated, and could be quite random, which is why my idea only boosts attributes.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted September 12, 2009 02:36 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
I know it's not picture perfect, but it could work.
It could work, but it's complicated, and could be quite random, which is why my idea only boosts attributes.
I think in reality, most times it would not be random. First of all, 9/10 times you'd mix a stack with experience with another stack with NO experience (i.e. newly purchased) - in this case, experience will simply scale down as ratio between the units. This is exactly in WOG.
In the rest, normally one stack will be much larger than the other, and will dominate. Thus, if you have a big stack along offensive line and a much smaller with defence, when they merge, the defence perk will simply be likely not to carry over, because chances between the two branches will be heavy towards offence.
So I think the number of times it will be really random will be quite few.
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Berny-Mac
Promising
Legendary Hero
Lord Vader
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posted September 14, 2009 03:13 AM |
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I like this, but perhaps we can shorten this to maybe three upgrades. As for the xp idea, just scrap it, it's even more complicated, instead, why not upgrade units with better equipment like with Homm5 artificer.
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Skyrim RP? YES!
Here it is!
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted September 14, 2009 03:50 AM |
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Because Artifier is a racial skill. I also fail to see what is so complicated with experience (in the WoG sense, not in the way Alcibiades has described).
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Berny-Mac
Promising
Legendary Hero
Lord Vader
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posted September 14, 2009 04:01 AM |
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well, i was talkign about Alcibiades's plan actually
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Skyrim RP? YES!
Here it is!
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