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andiangelsla...
Disgraceful
Famous Hero
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posted November 08, 2001 08:44 PM |
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oh and i forgot...to maxym: he didnt find a way to beat him, he found a way to steal the victory he earned by playing better, and even if it would have been luck...guys its a game, you are not supposed to use EVERYTHING to get a win, you are supposed to be good sports and make game fun for both sides
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rychenroller
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted November 08, 2001 09:08 PM |
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Why do you guys have to rehash this old, tired thread 
Yawn
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Myctteakyshd
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Phantom1500
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 08, 2001 09:41 PM |
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Same old thread is back and it's as absurd as ever.
How can you expect your opponent to not do everything in his power to win and still feel satisfied about a game?
How do you expect to learn to play if you just play a friendly game and sit there and build up, go fight, and end it. The game only gets fun when people start actually thinking of the dirty little things they could do to pull off an upset and not sit there like monkeys clicking buttons fighting the comp, meeting clicking some more brainless moves in one fight and saying good game. I personally get angry that someone wasted my time and couldn't even make the game remotely interesting and I know many other feel same way. There is nothing cheap about any of these tactics and now that people are too tired about arguing over hit and run new things arise.
I had games where i was blowing someone away bad and had no way to lose untill my opponent did the re-blind thing on me and i lost. Since then I always looked for it, so no one ever was able to pull it off again. Next i had a game, which was a Grandmaster game with Lichking there  , where i was surely gonna win, but man, opponent did the re-berserk trick and I lost. Great, no point in complaining that was the last time I ever lost to that technique. All these technique's considered cheap only work well if you don't think about it and don't prepare and then just complain. It's rather sad. Had a game with rychenroller for a tourney, where we played for 13 hours straight and game was gonna be decided by whether his uni's get morale or not. Is this all luck? No, just a great game like all of heroes. Sometimes you lose cause there is nothing you can do, too bad, sometimes you get hit and ran and there is nothing you can do, too bad, most times someone tries to pull this and you turn it around on them and you can sit there smiling while they say GG and have to suck it up. Most of the losses come from doing something stupid yourself anyway, at least that is how it was for me. The amount of times I lost to berserk tricks, having 1 arch and opponent having 1 gold and 3 speed boosting arts, forgetting armies, not counting logistics, etc is huge, while to hit and run it was twice. So please everyone close this thread and stop the complaining, you think it's cheap don't use it, you get hit and run suck it up. STOP WATERING DOWN HEROES WITH STUPID RULES
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted November 08, 2001 11:24 PM |
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Iīd like to add that Lich Kingīs post becomes completely absurd if you look at the setting of the mentioned game. Random map at expert difficulty: Tower versus Necropolis. Necro could donate his 10000 starting gold pieces to Tower here and still have the better position. To have any small chance at all here, you must make use of more subtle tactics as Tower. What else? Engage 2000 Skeletons in hand-to-hand combat?
And Destro, why on earth do you end your movement 2 squares way from the opponentīs INFERNO CASTLE?
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destro23
Promising
Famous Hero
Keeper of GrongGrong
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posted November 09, 2001 05:15 AM |
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Lews lmao
4th online game...
never would now
--------------------
The Dead Walk!!!
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wiggy_wam
Promising
Famous Hero
local pirate
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posted November 09, 2001 05:44 AM |
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from my experience, there is a difference between honor and fairness. There is also a difference between dishonorable and fairness.
In my opinion, hit & run is neither honorable nor dishonorable. It's just fair.
Using any legal tactic, including hit & run, cannot be dishonorable.
Then again, what is honor? I'd say it's honesty.
The ONLY way I'd find hit & run dishonorable is if THEY proposed the rule, and broke it without warning.
An honorable player, if he uses hit & run tactics, would let the opponent know at the beginning of the game that he allows such a rule, and that he will likely use it if necessary. <--- thereby not surprising the opponent when such happens.
And again, an honorable player will not refuse such an offer, unless they REALLY hate these tactics.
I believe most people (who don't use hit & run) see hit & run as a "cheap shot". It fits all the criteria for a cheap shot. But a cheap shot always comes without warning, and if these people knew that such would likely happen, then they wouldn't find anything dishonorable about it.
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Defreni
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted November 09, 2001 02:39 PM |
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Ouch Wiggy_Wan.
U just nailed it there
That is exactly my position to the matter aswell.
I usually agree to no H&R if my opponent says it. Why? U might ask, well to get an enjoyable game.
But if it was dishonorable to use al the tactics, we might aswell, take out Blind Berzerk etc. aswell as D-Door Arma and Fly that has allready been taken out of most TOH-maps.
Btw, concerning Lichkings game, well ur opponent should have seen it coming the minute u threw Anti-Magic on ur Titans, thats the same as casting prot from fire on ur unit, its a sure give away that something nasty is on its way 
Defreni
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Prometheus
Adventuring Hero
Knight of the Oracle
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posted November 10, 2001 07:43 PM |
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Wave
Wow
I log in to check my email today and my mailbox is full of retro messages that people have replied to my post here. I guess that feature started working suddenly. This thread is still alive and well! Amazing. I remove myself from having anything to say here because I havent played Heroes in over 6 months. But I did want to say "Hi" to all you crazy Heroes addicts. 
:eeks around to see if Mocara and Salamandre are still around.
Prometheus
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Mocara
Famous Hero
what?
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posted November 14, 2001 12:42 PM |
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peeking back
Still here.
In fact I sent you an email just yesterday.
I think you would enjoy playing some of these really cool ToH players like Defreni, Wiggy, Maxym, Lord of Kaos and many others.
The pure style of play will clearly never die.
Hell I even play russians Antal and IvanIvanIvan on maps like Beltway and 7Lakes.
Very little has changed afterall =)
So when will you play again?
-Mocara =)
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wiggy_wam
Promising
Famous Hero
local pirate
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posted November 15, 2001 02:10 PM |
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i don't know if you'd like to play ME ... my isp is still unstable like a biotch. 
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Mocara
Famous Hero
what?
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posted November 15, 2001 03:09 PM |
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Lich's game
Woah.
I missed Liches post.
First off he attacked YOU.
You used what you had to.
If someone breaks in your house do you say "Well I have that shotgun but I don't wanna do that."?
No. They die or you die.
Red is a cool guy. He didn't cry about it. Red beat me on boomerang w/a hit and run. And it was my fault. I walked right into it.
And I congratulated him just like he did you.
Was he forced to attack you?
Was he unable to expose the area he was walking in with a scout?
I know there is a small clique of people who like to call stripping the game of all strategy is called "honor" and maybe you were looking for some pats on the back from that lil group.
But as you can see people who play heroes and actually enjoy having to be prepared for possible spell combos far outweigh those who think all there is to heroes is build and fighting.
Nice posts Defreni, Lewis Therin, Maxym and Phantom.
Little wonder players as good as you guys also have such intelligent NON MALICIOUS opinions =)
-Mocara
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reverendmorr...
Junior Member
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posted November 20, 2001 06:01 AM |
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Good to see this thread is alive
Well mocara,glad to see you are an avid defender of the true virtues of the game.Good for you!True virtues being smart gameplay by utilizing tactics,not hiding behind silly,cowardly rules.If people out there desire heroes to have silly rules built in,maybe ask 3do to put out a special "wuss" edition or something.As I have said in an earlier post,if its in the game,better use it or you'll just end up whining like a chump when its used on you.Bottom line? C'mon,people!! Arm yourselves! If you don't like being beat with a stick,grab a gun .But I see people are still insistant on making tissue manufactures rich by crying all day. Do you guys see Mocara crying? He was getting the hell beaten out of him with the hit and run before half of us were playing online. But no,he decided to master such tacics to both use them and solve them.You wanna talk honor?Honor is when you find the resolve to get back up and come back smarter and tougher from having your ass handed to you.By the way-i'm working 70 hrs a week but soon i'll have the time to play again(for those who wondered). See Ya!
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Mocara
Famous Hero
what?
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posted November 20, 2001 11:14 AM |
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Wuss edition..lol...ill buy that one =)
-Mocachino
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted November 20, 2001 04:24 PM |
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Turning to darkside....not quite
Well as impossible as this topic is to win, it is useless to try so I think its better to just concider this a post of sharing and debating experiences about the dreaded H&R and other low down dirty tactics.
The fact is this game has several tactics that people have found in the game to exploit. Here are a few:
1- Summon + Shackles + tons of spell pts.
This = almost sure doom to the other guy if you use this. If you have the better spell power and higher spell points there is very little that can be done to beat this tactic. Often used as a last ditch effort to ressurect your self from a sure loss due to fact your opponent has either outplayed you or has gotten double production or he just plain got alot more goodies and better artifacts. What ever the case, the only way to win now is to summon 1000 Earths. Is this cheap, hmm most say so. I also think it to be cheap. But lately I have used it. Mainly cause if I dont they will use it agasint me. And if you think about it, the other guy was lucky enough to get double town production, I got shackles and summon =) However I gladly agree to not use it if my opponent who I trust requests not to. BOTTOM LINE THIS TACTIC LIKE H&R HAS ALMOST NO COUNTER TO DEFEND AGASINT IT. Unless your recanterschaaf and have recanters magically pop up on your map.
2 - Kill the catapult/Block the castle gate
This one is funny. I have lost tons of games to this, and yes I still attack them in castle lol =) Some times you have to attack them in castle, either that or let them get stronger and stronger. It always amazes me the people who complain about Castle sitters. I will sit in my castle if I am not prepared to fight yet. Alot of times my opponnet arrives at my town about 4 days before I have all men purchaces or I am still building guild etc. basically not really ready to put on the best fight I can. So they expect me to walk outta town voluntarily with pants down so they can squash me? LMAO. NOT. As soon as I am ready I will glady come outta town for main battle, dont get me wrong I hate town sitters to, but only the ones who sit there when they are all ready and dont plan on coming out EVER! That sucks. Ofcourse there has been some games where I was strong MAGIC hero and my opponent had Hack or Tazar with 30+ to attack and defense and he expected me to fight him in open ground. * chuckle * It boils down to if we fight outside I LOSE no contest, if we fight inside he loses with no contest. So who gets the benefit? In this case it should be a draw unless one of the players wants to take a chance and put it all on line and either storm in or storm out! =)
3 - Day 1 Rush attack!
This one is terrible. The person with benefit of going first gets to buy new weeks troops and attack opponent before he gets new weeks troops. Ofcourse this is not fair, but yet you still have people that claim it to be 100% fair. There is NO defense against this, just hope you have enough firepower to overcome his extra men.
All of these tactics I mentioned are dubbed " Part of game " but IMO the tactics are questionable. Sure I use a couple of them sometimes, but no matter how questionable these tactics are they are by far do not compare to Hit & Run. Unless you are blessed with faster creature or the proper artifacts placed on map...there is NO defense for it! H&R would be not as bad if there was some signifigant cost to the person doing it, i.e. surrendering you lose 1/2 your creatures you are carrying and substantial gold, that way you wouldnt beable to do it over and over. Doing it once is bad but atleast you can deal with it is when people use it as there only strategy for the game that is not right. Just my opinion.
Hopefully HOMM4 has addressed these issues and improved upon them so the are not as easily exploited. But I guarentee it wont take long for people to find some nasty tactic in H4 to exploit. =)
Jinxer
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Motorschaaf
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
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posted November 20, 2001 06:16 PM |
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Hehe
Quote:
Unless your recanterschaaf and have recanters magically pop up on your map.
.
yup that recanter loves me
Surrender-with-Imploschaaf
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Ichon
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted November 20, 2001 06:19 PM |
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Ehh...
The only thing you mentioned which isn't counterable is the red first day attack.
If you face a summon and shackles... then just make sure you kill all enemy units not elementals. It'll take awhile for them to get enough by repeatedly casting to grind you into the ground, so kill all their other units, then you both lose main hero and artifacts and start over even- for this reason never sit in castle and wait to be sieged if you can avoid it, and also always try to attack during your turn, not wait to be attacked not even just for initative, but so you can run a scout hero in to test for shackles, recanters, or red orb, or any counter to special spell you have. Then once scout died, send in a H&R if you can, then finally main hero...
Oh, and if you find he has shackles and you suspect the summon trick, that is the time to wait at max distance you figure from his main hero so he must attact without H&R or scout testing you(which he will do as so sure to win with his unbeatable summon strategy)then kill off both heroes. Now he has to end turn and when game data updates you get first chance to go thru heroes in the tavern and rehire his hero even, or- once I did this and got both heroes! =)
I am sure you mentioned some other things, but really outside of 1st day rush nothing is unfair, you just have to be prepared and know the possible methods you need to be rdy for.
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zsa
Famous Hero
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posted November 20, 2001 07:02 PM |
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Yep, u r right Ichon, Hit n Run can be countered even if it is not that easy.
I belive that 1st day rush can also be countered - kill one or more of his chain heroes or attack him day 7. That's not that impossible.
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Phantom1500
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 20, 2001 09:37 PM |
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If you are defending a castle with elementals you do not lose your main hero even if you have nothing but elementals left, you can rehire him from tavern. He will have no troops in the slots and i guess that is only time you will ever see that and if you go and attack something with no troops in slots, he just dissapears. (had to try it). that happens you become pretty much impossible to defeat. I had maybe 5 games we had to call draws cause both players can't siege the other one. It's actually pretty cool, gives heroes a little variety and happens so rarely, it's much better than any win. Elementals are just the best spell, they can fully abuse all implosions and air orb chains. Going for that strategy is still a huge risk though, cause if you go all magic and don't get the spell you are pretty much dead.
On jinxer's comment : going for an all elemental strategy like you explained starts having it's flaws right when you begin it. It's like flipping a coin, you get the spell you will probably win, you don't will certainly lose. Such odds still give you 50/50 odds which obviously makes it a poor strategy choice. I feel like if someone gambled on me like that and got it, they deserve the win. No luck, no accidents, you just get beat by the odds sometimes. That gave the games so much variety though and that's what i liked best about heroes. Why do you guys think it's cheap? It's just like anything else.
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jex
Known Hero
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posted November 20, 2001 09:51 PM |
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eles
If you surrender with just elementals left, costs zero gold.
You will be in the tavern with no troops, hehe glitches are fun to find
I think using elementals and shackles are fine btw 
In one game my opponent was nerco(showdown3) and I was tower. Week2 was 'week of the bone dragon' - so in the final fight we had about even stats. However he had 1200 skeletons, and 14 ghosties(wk4). He gave me enough time to get HH and shackles. He had the recanters but did NOT use it for some reason. In this case it was his own fault. My slow ass tower creatures were all dead after 2 rounds - 6 titans dont hold up well versus 14 ghosties that go first! I felt a little bad at first, but once he told me he had recanters and didnt use it, I couldnt stop laughing. When you have 1200 skeletons, 14 ghosties, and expert tactics versus tower. You ALWAYS use recanters. btw I didnt get implode in my guilds, but he did!! All the luck was in his favor, but he still lost, lmao.
Imo, this just goes to show that he should have played better to win, either by not giving me till week4 or wearing his cloak. hmmmm I guess skill decided this game then....and I thought closed maps were all luck
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Defreni
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted November 20, 2001 10:42 PM |
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Hehee Jex, I think most TOHers agrees that all maps takes skill. Its just that if u put 2 equally good players on a closed map, it comes down to luck
Oops, guess that goes for open maps and randoms aswell. Hehee Just couldnt resist it. 2 equally good players, its always luck, or stupid mistakea
Defreni
Who just enjoys open maps more, that has nothing with skills to do
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