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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted November 23, 2001 07:43 AM |
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Rychenroller, I agree with you that there are happier ways of losing, but what´s the alternative?
Hit and run is probably the best, often the only way to fight heroes with Diplomacy skill, Expert Summon Earth Elemental or random map necromancers who grow thousands of Skeletons. If you remove it from the game, now you have to do something about the Diplomacy heroes, who´ve become too strong. You ban them, too. Now the Logistic specialists are way too much above the others - so they´re also banned. But after that, what do we have to equal Solmyr and Deemer? Let´s exclude the level 4 spellers also. And of course all Death Knights and Necromancers, and the summoning spell ...
That´s why I like to keep the game intact. I would have been happy about a patch that adds to surrendering some sort of reparations cost, if the surrendering hero has caused more losses than he has suffered. This would even make the aspect of buying oneself free more realistic. But implementing rules IMO creates more problems and imbalances than it solves.
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madmartigan
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
who will never walk alone
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posted December 02, 2001 02:31 PM |
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again hit & run
I find it very silly that it is not "hit and run" if your opponent hits and then runs telling you that "you have attacked me"
So what? Imagine a hero with 1 gold dragon and a huge armageddon. So do you have to wait for him to attack you to kick him out of your lands?
Or is it not again hitting and then running if you attack him and he casts his armageddon and then flees?
In my opinion, "hit and run" is running after hitting. Therefore, "no hit and run" rule may be described as this: "no offensive spell casting (not even magic arrow) on the round you are gonna flee; if you have cast an offensive spell, you cannot surrender/flee from battle on that round"
Regards
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wiggy_wam
Promising
Famous Hero
local pirate
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posted December 02, 2001 06:09 PM |
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hmmmmmm
good definition ... however I've applied that one before, and ALL my opponents broke it, saying either "it was an accident" or "I forgot".
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- wiggy ... who has a crush on Rob's models. Well ... the ones his age (18-26) 
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insatiable
Supreme Hero
Ultimate N00bidity
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posted December 03, 2001 12:58 PM |
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Let's not fight any more..why don't we just promenade-together- around these beautiful forests and magic springs,riding our beloved horses,,,why we fight?.. name it 'desert peace'/'hey Melodia,cummon over my place-have a coffee..careful of the flies, they sting like dragons'
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madmartigan
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
who will never walk alone
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posted December 03, 2001 09:31 PM |
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I know that too :-)
I know what U mean Wiggy. They just make up excuses after seeing that their main is going to die.
The reason why I hate this "h&r" thing is that I am the leader of a barbarian clan. And certainly stronghold does not have the fastest creatures in the whole game. A lvl7 creature with 5 speed is a joke.
However, they breed like insects, and Stronghold heroes are likely to get att. rather than spell pow. or knowledge. When I get my behemots on week2 day 1, and catch my opponent with 30-40 centaurs, harpies, and 15-20 elves or beholders or whatever, he casts 1 lightning on round 1, and then casts another killing 1 beh, and then flees. When I remind him that we agreed on no "h&r" he says "U attacked me" or "This is not hit and run, I have my full army".
And then I eat my brains out :-)
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wiggy_wam
Promising
Famous Hero
local pirate
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posted December 04, 2001 12:46 AM |
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yep, that sums it up 
that's one reason I play with H/R allowed ... to avoid those arguments.
There are ways to defeat H/R, but it's not easy, and you DO NOT want to carry around a big bad main with lots of troops, because that'll only encourage a H/R.
The most exciting games I've ever played were those where my opponent has a hit/ run main (Solmyr) ... and I would plan my assaults around him, which would involve scouts and power-scouts. (pawns & knights instead of queen/ king)
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- wiggy ... who has a crush on Rob's models. Well ... the ones his age (18-26)
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Ichon
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted December 07, 2001 08:47 AM |
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Ugh
Attacking with only Behomeths is just asking to get them killed by a lightening. Besides, I think it's much better to attack with a battle mage who has lightening and thunder birds/wolf raiders, and some goblins the speed and spells usually can kill other town early. Save those Behomeths. They aren't any good until Ancients anyway. You should be able to get Ancients late week 2 on most ToH maps.
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Prometheus
Adventuring Hero
Knight of the Oracle
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posted December 07, 2001 06:54 PM |
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Group Hug
Hm.
You good folks will never agree 
I live in a great country with two strong political parties that will never agree. One party wants a strong federal government and the other wants to limit federal power.
I see a similarity in Heroes. One party wants rules to limit tactics/gimicks/dirty tricks (whatever you want to call it doesnt matter) and one does not. The division into two camps was inevitable with the player insurgence that resulted from H3 and the longevity of Vesuvius' dedication to running TOH. There are strong experienced players on both sides so I say...agree to disagree. Group Hug! Respect each other and choose your opponents wisely.
Long live Heroes!
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(Prometheus is a league commentator and Heroes veteran who is best known as the only player who has actually been dismissed by his own HEROES)
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Moon
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 08, 2001 09:37 AM |
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It's really funny. The maps you play are such extremly pro H&R and then you rule it out.
On which normal map a heroe has 2X Power AND enough money/Resources to built a high Mageguild+lvl.7 upgrade? And still enough money to kick everything away, surely.
It's not a game feature, non of the maps bought with the Game are such swammed with Resources.
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wiggy_wam
Promising
Famous Hero
local pirate
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posted December 08, 2001 10:03 AM |
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Quote:
It's really funny. The maps you play are such extremly pro H&R and then you rule it out.
SOOOO true.
it all has to do with hero development vs. creature growth.
in almost ALL ToH maps, hero development WAY overshadows creature growth ... and there's almost no stopping a hero with titan's cuirass / tome of earth in week 2 or even week 3.
In any battle where creature growth overshadows hero's skills, it would be rediculous to cast implosion on 56 gold dragons, when you could cast a spell like mass bless. If this is the case, let him H / R me all he wants, he can't take out 25% of my troops even if he did hit / run 10 times.
Therefore I must ask ... if anyone hates H / R so much, why do you play the maps that foster it? or why do you MAKE the maps that foster it?
just a thought.
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- wiggy ... who has a crush on Rob's models. Well ... the ones his age (18-26)
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jiels
Adventuring Hero
LFM C'thun, pst.
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posted December 08, 2001 10:23 AM |
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Moon you have a good point, so does Wiggy
Moon, the maps on the cd aren't designed for tournament play. Imo, the maps that came with the game suck! Perhaps that's because they are week 1 games. I have been killed week 1 on those maps (CC and Warlords especially) too many times to even consider them fair multiplayer maps. I think if you look at hg, dw, hell almost any toh map, you will see much more attention to detail and thought then you will on any map that came with the cd. (campaign maps excluded, some of those were very well done)
I tend to think that most map makers don't make maps with h/r in mind. Hg is the one Wiggy likes to pick on the most and I am sure that Pandora made it without h/r in mind, if only 'cause she is a b@st@rd. This brings me to my next point; the player is what determines h/r, not a map.
Wiggy you say it's a map that makes it possible? I disagree. I have been playing rndms a lot lately and they are just as geared towards h/r as X map is. it's easy to find a box that gives thousands of exp and relics lying around. What determines if h/r is viable is the player, not the map. A good player can defend agianst h/r on any map, right?
And to make my book even larger(), it's the player not the map that determines viability and tactical aspects in all maps. A good example of my point is Mad's DOG. DOG was turned into a 2 week map by Titan 888, right?
Did Mad ever think that would happen? Let's ask him. My point is no matter how well designed a map is, it will always be the player that distorts, changes, or makes certain tactic possible.
Is it easier on Hg to h/r? Nope...
jiels (is insane)
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jiels
Adventuring Hero
LFM C'thun, pst.
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posted December 08, 2001 10:35 AM |
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LOL
gee, I must be tired. I repeated myself like a...zillion times in my last post. LOLOLOLOLOL
jiels (is tired and insane)
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Mad_Unicorn
Famous Hero
I am a mean person shame on me
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posted December 08, 2001 11:33 AM |
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HELL NO
was initially designed as a 3-4 week map sometimes 5 lol but as it got played 5 went to 4 then 4 went 3 (which is what i was most comfortable with) then stupid titan made it a 2 week map(beat me too lol showing me how) flammi almost pulled off 1 week but it was day 8 when he showed up at my tower shame he couldn't attack and i was about to pull off a hit and run (friggen bastard) drop goes flammi.... boot goes theblackknight (game never finished )
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wiggy_wam
Promising
Famous Hero
local pirate
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posted December 08, 2001 12:05 PM |
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Quote:
Wiggy you say it's a map that makes it possible? I disagree. I have been playing rndms a lot lately and they are just as geared towards h/r as X map is. it's easy to find a box that gives thousands of exp and relics lying around. What determines if h/r is viable is the player, not the map. A good player can defend agianst h/r on any map, right?
Is it easier on Hg to h/r? Nope...
a few things ...
first off, you are correct, randoms are usually just as bad, sometimes worse, sometimes better.
second ... yes a player determines H / R in a game ... but consider / compare these 2 situations:
- (week 3) alamar has spell power of 8 and knowledge of 6. One lightning bolt does 210 damage, which kills approx. 2k gold worth of damage. The damage vs. cost to recruit makes such a manouver not very efficient.
map = 7 lakes
- (week 3) a lvl 15 alamar has the tome of earth and titan's cuirass, along with crown of dragontooth and celestial necklass, giving him a total spell power of 30 ... alamar can cast an implosion doing 2550 damage killing approx 30k damage (while recruiting costs 2.5k) ... or cast a meteor shower doing 800 damage to 3 units, inflicting 2400 damage.
Such is ridiculously efficient.
map = hg, gw, and many others
third ... you are correct, a good player can defend against H / R on any map. It takes a lot of skill, and a totally different strategy. And this is why I never propose a "no H/R" rule on any map.
Yet I do accept others' request to no H/R and stick by it ... until they pull it off on me!
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- wiggy ... who has a crush on Rob's models. Well ... the ones his age (18-26)
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Moon
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 08, 2001 01:07 PM |
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I didn't say they are determined for Tournament play. At least not the med. maps. But the amount of Gold/Resources/Arts are balancing the towns/heroes/tactics in some way.
The H/R Tactic with your Archangel cost you 7500 Gold. That's a lot of money. Try to destroy that much without many Arts and only one Spell. Don't forget, that you have to pay 40.000 till the upgraded Dwelling and the others cost less.
It's not only 3 weeks and same at both sides to be perfectly fair. Two towns and a Gate with lots of Archangels in the middle is also perfectly fair and doesn't allow a week1 rush. But some towns will take a lot of time, especially those, who can't buy a wood/ore Recourcesilo.
Also the l4 scholar might is not so cool, if you don't have basically unlimited money and a Tazar or Crack Hack with 1-4 Knowledge and Power don't has much of a Ressurection.
And the Chances to get a good might, a scholar and a Lvl. 4 Held without buying 6-8 Heroes at day one isn't really great.
Finally I don't need H/R and if you want to play without, np. All Lvl. 4 Heroes out? Surely. It's still Heroes, isn't it?
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jiels
Adventuring Hero
LFM C'thun, pst.
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posted December 08, 2001 01:20 PM |
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Yay! A debate
I'm starting wake up I think......
Your right I failed to address your hero/creature growth conclusion. I will attempt to do so.
After a little thought it seems that there is no real good balance between the two. Short of limiting a hero's experience. One or the other is always going to be better and tilt the game in one direction. The question would therefore become; who prefers hero growth or who prefers creature growth?
Personally, I prefer hero, because it seems to be funner. More tactical even (in my opinion). I have played games where it's "the guy with the bigger army wins" and I don't find it as fun as one where things are more equalish.
It is called Heroes of might and magic not creatures after all. It seems only fitting that the hero is the most powerful variable in the game. This is just my opinion. And one I (hope) most people share.
The more I think about it the more it seems that hero growth is designed to be the factor in who wins and loses. Otherwise there wouldn't be Hack or Dessa, each hero would be the same. A skilled player uses their hero to more effect then most of the creatures.
7 lakes is a map I have yet to play. I intend to soon though, especially after talking to Mocara about it!  But in a game with limited hero growth, then creature type and amount will be the deciding factor, won't it? Where does luck and skill come into it? Seems to me that it would be possible to say who will win just from the start. Or am I nuts? I'm beginning to think so.
To be honest Wiggy, this comes accross as whining to me. So you've lost on maps to powerful implosions before, so have I. Do I enjoy it; no. But do I propose that the maps are wrong in some way? No, I don't (well, I do think the tome of Earth should be removed from most maps ). Someone always wins, someone always loses, by spell or creature, does it matter how? Is it the maps fault I lost? Suck it up and keep on playing. Don't play the map if you don't want to. *shrug* Seems simple to me.
I have lost lots to that darn implosion spell in some powerful hero's hands. Not once have I blamed a map for my loss! I blame my luck!!!
I'm not even close to being an expert but it seems like NWC made the game to be this way. If they wouldn't have made the relics so powerful or added the orbs you wouldn't have a point. It seems like you would rather be playing heroes 1 or 2. Creature growth was, in my experience, often the biggest deciding factor. Perhaps you should play those games instead?
Anyways Wiggy, no offense, if I have said something that bothers you, let me know and I will delete it.
jiels (writes another book!)
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Thunder
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted December 08, 2001 01:28 PM |
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These might be mentioned earlier............
Attacking player should park his/her hero far enough from the city he`s attacking unless he can attack it right away. That way defending player can hit and run at most once. With the Dimension Door and/or Fly your opponent wont virtually have chances to hit and run unless he got one of those too (although the defender might not reach the attacker with the Fly if the attacker has the Dimension Door).
Another thing that attacker, who fears/knows that opponent is hit and running, should get resistance (along with artifacts). Best hero against hit and running is of course Thorgrim but logistics heroes, like Kyrre and Gunnar, are good choices too.
Shackles of War is of course the superior way to put the teeth on hit and runners throat. Who cares if you lost some creatures when the opponent loses (one of) his/her best hero(es)?
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Moon
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 08, 2001 01:45 PM |
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In some cases far away isn't far enough. I remember a game, my Enemy kicked my Main with H/R 10+ Lvl.1 Heroes on me.
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jiels
Adventuring Hero
LFM C'thun, pst.
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posted December 08, 2001 01:48 PM |
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Thunder: Yes those and many others have all been mentioned before. It has gotten a little long hasn't it.
Moon: Your right you never said they were made for tournament play, sorry. I just wanted to point out that the maps you use as examples are not the ones used here. I do wonder if you have played these maps when you make statements like this: "But the amount of Gold/Resources/Arts are balancing the towns/heroes/tactics in some way." If you really think that then I suggest you play some of the top ranked toh players on these maps. Maybe you find it fun to be killed day 4?
And your right, there are better ways to make maps fair and balance or close them. But have you looked at all the toh maps? It seems like you have seen a few of the popular ones and picking on them. That's fine but at least realize that there is a big variety here. It should be easy to find ones you like. I suggest Bfh, try that.
The problem with making resources scarce is that increases the amount of time a game will take. Most people don't have 8 hours to waste trying to build an army or town.
The chances to get a good might, scholar, lvl 4 hero are slight no matter what! Even buying 8 heros your lucky if you can get 2 of those, that's not why people buy 8 heroes though. If you think we buy 6-8 heros for that then you are mistaken. Although that is one reason, yes. Even on a 200% dif map I try to have at least 5-6 heros out.
Most people I know don't decide on a main 'til week 2. You are really lucky if you can find a nice one week 1.
Any other questions or points Moon? I have another 40 mins 'til my scheduled game.
And as to if it's the same game....that can be argued either way and really isn't important enought to warrant the thought.
jiels (is having fun )
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Thunder
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted December 08, 2001 02:35 PM |
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Either you play on easier difficulty settings or the maps you play virtually swim on the resources!
On small and medium maps I play on the expert difficulty and on the large and extra large maps I play on the impossible difficulty.
On the impossible difficulty I usually have to hang with my first two heroes for a while. I don`t usually have money to buy extra heroes (and I buy the second one only if I have enough money and/or he or she is a good hero or a resource hero). If my first hero is even medium class and I have succeeded to develop his or her skills enough, I will keep it (atleast on as the garrison hero).
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This thread is pages long: 
