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Hex
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 15, 2015 10:37 PM |
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Not that I suggest you did this ... wait, did you? 
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Sligneris
Supreme Hero
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posted April 15, 2015 10:42 PM |
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I actually did. Frankly, the situation really called for it.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 15, 2015 10:44 PM |
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted April 15, 2015 10:55 PM |
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Galaad said:
I do not understand what you are talking about at all, what do mean, "players avoid randomness"??? It is exactly as Stevie said, depending on the game, your hero will not develop the same way, and you will simply adapt and make the best out of it, and there's the thrill.
Yes. depending on game hero will develop diferently. That's what randomn skill system does. That part is true, and can't be diferent. Prerequisites do not change this at all. They do change one thing tho.
Here is what I mean by "players are avoiding randomness". When you play the game in H5, you are offered certain skills at random. Those skills are actualy not "completly random", but some have higher chance to show up. So far I hope this is all known.
Now. The second part. By picking right skills/perks in right order, you can influence the chances to get the skills you want. This I hope is also clear. Now the prerequisites: Certain perks are "secret perks". They are more powerfull (not always) than "basic" perks. To get to them, you need to first get prerequired perks. Example from top of my head: If you want to have cold steel as a knight, you must first have perk: master of ice from destruction skill, else it will not show up. I hope you still folow to here.
So, folowing top example, there are 2 ways to make "cold steel" show up. First way (unlikely). You play along and by chance, happen to pick destruction magic, and also decide to get "master of ice". Then, you get offered attack, and because attack seems cool, you also choose it. This choices you did just for kicks, with no grand plan behind it. And behold, next time you level up, the "secret" perk "cold steel" shows.
This is, as you can immagine very unlikely to happen, as most people don't just select skills and perks just with no purpose. Also, note that, if you select all 3 "basic" perks of attack skill, you get yourself locked out of option for "cold steel".
So you go for the second option. You do some research. You go to celestial haven, and look at the skill-wheel. You see "cold steel" and decide, that's a good skill to have. Normaly, you would not go for destruction magic, as you don't want to develop nuker, but now, you do ... because you know to get "cold steel". In other words, you plan your "build" in advance. Now back to point of skill chances. I hope it's not too confusing.
If you pick your skills and perks in right order, you can maximazie your chances to get "cold steel" to show. Just keeping in mind, that you always choose destruction magic before attack if possible for instance.
By doing all of this, you can actualy prety reliably get Ultimate skill every long game. Sometimes randomness will screw you, but you can generaly get skills, that you plan on getting. Just like if the skill-wheel was not random. Yes you can. And players do ... because they want to win - specialy in case of multiplayer.
What I want to say is: When playing H5, players generaly don't pick skills at random, but put much taught into what skills to get, effectively working to maximizing chances of their planned build. In short ... they are avoiding randomness.
Here is a quick question ... or rather a taught. Immagine, if skills and perks in H5 would be completly random. No skills would get higher chance ... yea, that wouldn't work well ... noone would be able to get even stuff like "power of speed" let alone Ultimates. Prerequisites makes you plan your "build".
And plannning = oposite of random
A good system is not a system, that is your enemy, and you treat it like an obstacle. I want to fight my enemy as obstacle, not skill-wheel.
now ... am I against random skills? Havens NO. But I am in favour of more of a ... H3 system, where there were no prerequisites. H3 was not in depth as H5, and had comperativly few skills, it's true. But is had better implementation. Not saying it was better. It was just implemented better. 
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted April 15, 2015 10:58 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 23:00, 15 Apr 2015.
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I got it with Steyn's post but thanks.
I think Heroes 5 took the system one step further with perks and IMHO it only needed a better implementation and we would have had the best skill system ever, probably. I guess it will be for Heroes 8.
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The_Green_Drag
Supreme Hero
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posted April 15, 2015 11:06 PM |
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Zombi_Wizzard said:
The_Green_drag said:
I probably won't survive on the hardest difficulty because I'll be ignoring their strongest skills and my army won't be strong enough 
Why would you ignore them? So you will level magic skills on might hero  ? Why not pick diferen't class if you want diferent skills? And if you start with random hero (and you should), you can select skills, which that class is particulary good at.
I would ignore them because I don't want them. I do not like warcries at all. Stronghold is my favorite faction and prefer playing might over magic but don't want to use warcries, which 2/3 might heroes specialize in. Same nonsense with Academy might heroes. I can't just play how I want without ignoring one of the blademage's main skill is Primemagic. If we could just pick main skills this would not be a problem.
They're changing might heroes to play like magic, imho.
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted April 15, 2015 11:12 PM |
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Zombi_Wizzard said:
And plannning = oposite of random
bullsnow. good planning takes randomness into account. would you say you never plan anything in XCOM? no, because that game is all about planning despite being very, very chance-based. You utilized the randomness to your advantage. it doesn't always work (hence it being chance) but the ability to plan doesn't take that away. I would argue the opposite. Planning is necessary: you need to be prepared for any outcome.
plans are useless though 
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 15, 2015 11:18 PM |
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Zombi_Wizzard said:
What I want to say is: When playing H5, players generaly don't pick skills at random, but put much taught into what skills to get, effectively working to maximizing chances of their planned build. In short ... they are avoiding randomness.
Here is a quick question ... or rather a taught. Immagine, if skills and perks in H5 would be completly random. No skills would get higher chance ... yea, that wouldn't work well ... noone would be able to get even stuff like "power of speed" let alone Ultimates. Prerequisites makes you plan your "build".
And plannning = oposite of random
I've told you before, you're avoiding a certain outcome, not randomness. You're fighting randomness by being smart about your skill selection, for the purpose of a better outcome. Avoiding randomness is not even possible, unless you set the game to have no randomness at all. And no, planning is not the opposite of random. Chance (random) and strategy (planning) is a thing for many games.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted April 15, 2015 11:35 PM |
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Elvin said:
Nonono. The hired artist could not meet his pointless-spikes-per-hero quota so he pasted that bone on his face because there was no room elsewhere.
Is it possible to add more there? jeeeeeeeeeeez
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted April 15, 2015 11:38 PM |
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Storm-Giant said:
Elvin said:
Nonono. The hired artist could not meet his pointless-spikes-per-hero quota so he pasted that bone on his face because there was no room elsewhere.
Is it possible to add more there? jeeeeeeeeeeez
There is a Polish song called "Wszystko się może zdarzyć", which roughly translates to "everything is possible" and since I really like I believe that yes, there can be even more spikes. 
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted April 15, 2015 11:40 PM |
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Pawek_13 said:
I believe that current number of abilities per skill (six), when some prerequisites would be added, would provide enough place for both randomness and strategy.
What makes you think that?
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted April 15, 2015 11:46 PM |
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Galaad said:
Pawek_13 said:
I believe that current number of abilities per skill (six), when some prerequisites would be added, would provide enough place for both randomness and strategy.
What makes you think that?
My own experience with Heroes V, both base game and ToE. 
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted April 15, 2015 11:48 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 00:05, 16 Apr 2015.
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted April 15, 2015 11:52 PM |
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Galaad said:
Thanks but I asked you to expand a bit
I know. I will most probably do that tomorrow because soon I'm going to sleep.
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Sligneris
Supreme Hero
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posted April 15, 2015 11:57 PM |
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Personally, I'm curious whether they're going to change those mechanics and if yes, what is going to be the end result.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted April 16, 2015 08:03 AM |
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Storm-Giant said:
Elvin said:
Nonono. The hired artist could not meet his pointless-spikes-per-hero quota so he pasted that bone on his face because there was no room elsewhere.
Is it possible to add more there? jeeeeeeeeeeez
...How do you feel about literal boners?
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted April 16, 2015 08:07 AM |
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Elvin said:
...How do you feel about literal boners?
wold that be boners for bones?
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted April 16, 2015 08:26 AM |
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Pawek_13 said:
There is a Polish song called "Wszystko się może zdarzyć", which roughly translates to "everything is possible"
Even into space?
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted April 16, 2015 08:38 AM |
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Galaad said:
I got it with Steyn's post but thanks.
I think Heroes 5 took the system one step further with perks and IMHO it only needed a better implementation and we would have had the best skill system ever, probably. I guess it will be for Heroes 8.
Yep. H5 wasn't bad at all, so let me be clear on that. But it had certain dissadvantages, which could be refined further, and if H5 would serve as a basis, and those prerequisites would be changed (not removed necessarily, coz some of them DID work well, but only SOME of them. Ultimates were to much I think), then we would now have a good system. H6 realy was mistake, by removing all H5 begun, and started a new. A terrible mistake if you ask me.... Like you said - we hope for H8.
Stevie said:
I've told you before, you're avoiding a certain outcome, not randomness.
There is no certain outcome in H5 skill system. In any random system there's no certainty which could be avoided. What you ARE avoiding is ending with bunch of random skills/perks in your hero's arsenal. Which is EXACTLY what random skill system DOES. You are avoiding randomness.
Stevie said:
You're fighting randomness by being smart about your skill selection, for the purpose of a better outcome.
Or .... fighting against randomness ... this works too. To me it's just semantics. But yes, this is what I meant with avoiding randomness. BUT! In H3 ... if you look, you actualy DO make smart decisions, that make better outcome. In H5 this isn't the case. it's more or less that you plan your build in advance and then most of the time make it, but some times not. In short ... you are not "fighting" randomness as much but are more "fighting the system itself".
If you want to develop your Ultimate perk, like ... Nature's Luck or Unstoppable Charge or Urgash's Call, you MUST prety much do exactly the thing which you said (and I agree) you don't want in a random skill system .... you MUST cherry-pick the right perks/skills allong the way. How else would you get those Ultimates then?
Funny thig is ... if in H5 I WANTED those perks (which a lot of times weren't worth it), I could get them ALMOST ANY GAME. Only diference being that sometimes I got them latter, and order in which I got skills/perks was diferent, but end result the same. So I ask ... How is this diferent to a non-random cherry picking? Only that sometimes it fails, even tho not often. In other words the system sometimes screwed you over. Result of this was, that in most games, I ended up picking same skills: Dark Magic for Necro, Destruction Magic for Dungeon, Light Magic for Haven ... etc. Prerequisites for me killed the main thing about random skill system - it felt like non-random wheel, that you must find loops in to get what you want from it.
Now look back at H3 for contrast. It also had random system, and it worked, just like you said random system works. You make smart decisions, to end up with something good, but diferent each time you play. Your hero, has various skills there, that you take for whatever reason. There is less "min-maxing", but more in finding compromise. This is all because there's NO prerequisites, and therefore NO REASON to cherry pick.
Imo - Best route would be random skills and non-random perks, that have prerequisites INSIDE skill only. Ultimates would not exist, but instead, EACH SKILL should have "ultimate perk". This is what I was hoping for back in the day, as it seemed natural evolution of H5 skill system - it fixes almost all problems, while it retains almost all advantages of H3 like random skills.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted April 16, 2015 09:35 AM |
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Zombi_Wizzard said:
If you want to develop your Ultimate perk, like ... Nature's Luck or Unstoppable Charge or Urgash's Call, you MUST prety much do exactly the thing which you said (and I agree) you don't want in a random skill system .... you MUST cherry-pick the right perks/skills allong the way. How else would you get those Ultimates then?
Funny thig is ... if in H5 I WANTED those perks (which a lot of times weren't worth it), I could get them ALMOST ANY GAME. Only diference being that sometimes I got them latter, and order in which I got skills/perks was diferent, but end result the same. So I ask ... How is this diferent to a non-random cherry picking? Only that sometimes it fails, even tho not often. In other words the system sometimes screwed you over. Result of this was, that in most games, I ended up picking same skills: Dark Magic for Necro, Destruction Magic for Dungeon, Light Magic for Haven ... etc. Prerequisites for me killed the main thing about random skill system - it felt like non-rand
Why do you keep harping at it in an "all-or-nothing" fashion? You keep stating that H5 was much too convoluted and complex, so it has to go completely to make it workable? It's the same mindset the folks at UbiSoft seem to have: the system of H5 was set up too complex, so let's scratch it altogether!
Why not have "Ultimates" that depend on perks in only 3 or 4 skills (looking at the 10 you have in Heroes7)? Why not have multiple skills combining into multiple different "Ultimates" for the same Hero? Why not have perks with prerequisites that say "you need to have perk X OR perk Y to get this particular perk"?
That makes it easier to get such an "Ultimate", less chance for the RNG to screw you over on the next-to-last level-up option provided for instance; it has a lesser footprint on the skills you have to choose, since overall less skills and perks are required for each "Ultimate", giving you much more room to get other skills and perks on the side of your path to that "Ultimate".
And besides that flip of the coin that you need to get an "Ultimate", the random element also means that the order in which you get your skills and perks varies from game to game. Especially in the earlier stages of the game, this forces you to adapt your playstyle to whatever skill and perk offers you got in those first levels. You might want Destructive for Dungeon, but in one game it might be offered on level 2, while in another game it gets offered on level 6, for example.
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
