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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted April 16, 2015 10:43 AM |
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Maurice said:
Why do you keep harping at it in an "all-or-nothing" fashion? You keep stating that H5 was much too convoluted and complex, so it has to go completely to make it workable? It's the same mindset the folks at UbiSoft seem to have: the system of H5 was set up too complex, so let's scratch it altogether! 
I said that was mistake. H5 was good skill system, but there were flawas. I can see most perks were ok, but ultimates were the worst part. So ... not "all or nothing" but more like ...
Zombi_Wizzard said:
random skills and non-random perks, that have prerequisites INSIDE skill only.
You have random skills because you want to avoid cherry picking Ultimates REQUIRE a lot of cherry picking.
Here. I drive a convertible (yes I do). Do you think main purpose I use my car is to carry 4 people with loads of luggage, and to go skiing in the mountains?
Yes it is feasible to do that, with a lot of adjustments (only skis would be problematic a bit.... also ... 2 people in rear would realy have to squeze), but that's not why I decide to go for convertible. If that would be my purpose (and if I had the cash ofc), I would opt for a SUV instead! Much better.
Same with skills. If there is cherry picking involved in greater extent, I want them to be non-random. Otherwise it feels like a system where you are encouraged to cherry pick, but are only held back by the randomness ... and even that at not big extent. Imo Ultimates were biggest downside of H5 skill-wheel for this veary reason.
Maurice said:
Why not have "Ultimates" that depend on perks in only 3 or 4 skills (looking at the 10 you have in Heroes7)? Why not have multiple skills combining into multiple different "Ultimates" for the same Hero?
Because you run into things like this:
The_Green_Drag said:
I would ignore them because I don't want them. I do not like warcries at all. Stronghold is my favorite faction and prefer playing might over magic but don't want to use warcries, which 2/3 might heroes specialize in. Same nonsense with Academy might heroes. I can't just play how I want without ignoring one of the blademage's main skill is Primemagic. If we could just pick main skills this would not be a problem.
What if I don't want that particular 3 or 4 skills? What, if they don't appear untill im lvl 20 and enemy is dead? I also agree whith his end conclusion: If you could only pick your "main" skills yourself than this would not be a problem. Indeed. If that part would not be random, then Ultimates all the way.
OR. My proposal ... I don't claim it's the best, but how I see it it's obvious solution: Make ALL skills have ULTIMATE PERK for that particular skill. THEN make skills RANDOM. Problem solved. Maybe you could have 3 or something "ultimate points" so you choose which skills you use them on.
EDIT: Actualy that is not "my" proposal, since I remember some guy suggested this very thing way back. I can't remember his/her name tho. But I do think this is realy a way to go.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted April 16, 2015 11:56 AM |
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Edited by Maurice at 12:15, 16 Apr 2015.
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Zombi_Wizzard said:
You have random skills because you want to avoid cherry picking Ultimates REQUIRE a lot of cherry picking.
But that was the way it was set-up in Heroes5. Stevie and I have been argueing for a while now to (severly) loosen up on those requirements so you actually have much more freedom to choose other skills and perks, besides the few that you need to build up to an Ultimate.
(Edit: Just to check, I opened the H5 Skillwheel for Bloodrage, but other skillwheels are similar; besides the Racial it requires 3 additional skills - Leadership, Attack and War Machines - with 3 perks in each, along with all perks in the Racial. That's 3 skills and 12 perks for the Ultimate, which is simply way too much and way too restricted. End edit.)
This extra room you have also automatically accomodates for skillpicks that don't contribute to that particular Ultimate (but maybe to another), so you don't get blocked off due to one bad ( = a skill offer without prerequisite skills in that mix) level-up offer down the road.
Quote:
What if I don't want that particular 3 or 4 skills? What, if they don't appear untill im lvl 20 and enemy is dead?
If you don't want those skills, you likely also don't like the particular Ultimate, but would rather work to one of the other available ones. As I see it, an Ultimate is some sort of culmination or apogee of the underlying prerequisite skills; so, if you don't like those underlying skills, I doubt the Ultimate is something you'd be using.
And if your enemy is already dead by level 20, the game is short enough to not be bothered by Ultimate skills to begin with, regardless of their design. Ultimates only play a role in games that last somewhat longer, which implies larger maps and campaigns with carry-over Heroes.
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted April 16, 2015 12:41 PM |
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How about a combination of random skills and non-random perks? I'm thinking about a hybrid skill system, where once you level up you have to pick between 2 secondary skills and you also get 1 perk point. Every skill would have several perks like in h5, but you can select which one you want the moment they are available, without having to "waste" a level up to select one. So basically you get one random skill and a perk of your choice every level-up.
Let's use an example: your Hero has 3 skills so far: offense, logistics and war machines, all of them on basic/novice level, after he levels up he gets to chose between advanced offense and basic leadership, you select the second. Now besides you got a new skill, you also got a perk point to spent on one of your abilities, now you got to chose a perk from the 4 skills you got, or to keep it for another skill. In order to balance this system, it would be required to put a cap of let's say 2 perks out of 5 total perks for every skill, while perks require different levels of the skill in order to be unlocked (basic, advance, expert), or a total cap of X perks per Hero, so you can select all perks from a skill.
I believe this system keeps both the randomness but also allows better customization, it could also work with h5-like prerequisites, you could save the perk points until you get enough skills to define your strategy.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted April 16, 2015 12:53 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 12:56, 16 Apr 2015.
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Not wanting to be rude with Ubi, but wasn't this already suggested, back in h5 times?
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted April 16, 2015 02:25 PM |
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Edited by Pawek_13 at 14:34, 16 Apr 2015.
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Galaad, as promised, here is my explaination why I believe that in random skill system 6 is an optimal number of abilities.
Remember when have you played Heroes V? I don't mean ToE, I mean the vanilla version. A few months ago I decided to do a playthrough through all the campaigns, so it meant that well-known teritiory of ToE had to be abandoned, so nearly all of its modifications, including changes in skillwheel, were absent from my experience for a couple of months.
In vanilla version of Heroes V maximum number of abilities per skill was limited to 5. Moreover, most of the campaign heroes had no access to Ultimate skills. This was truly a refreshing experience! That number of abilities gave enough randomness, so that every set of skills felt unique and it also gave quite enough space for strategy because you had any possibility to plan what skills you will pick, unlike in ToE, where you have to pray or pay a lot at Memory Master to get what you want.
I don't want to say that vanilla skill-wheel is perfect, it has a host of its issues: too big number of skills required to get an Ultimate, meaning four plus racial skill; some abilities needed an ability from different skill that needed ability from different skill that needed
ability from different skill (yes, it was that convoluted). Overall I believe that system in ToE is better but in terms of number of abilities per skill vanilla skill system is better.
So, from that I came up to a conclusion that 6 abilities (or maybe seven, to add a little bit more variety) is very good and balanced number of abilities.
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husham123
Famous Hero
Yes
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posted April 16, 2015 02:44 PM |
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I never used to play other Heroes than 3, but in my opinion all are awsome, and with each advance the Heroes become more awsome, and I like the Heroes 7. Now my 2 favorite games are Homm3 and Homm7.
Still, my CD/DVD Driver is broke, and could buy the game, but couldn't install it. Does anyone know an alternative link ?
Thanks in advance, and specially for the creators of Homm7  
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted April 16, 2015 02:47 PM |
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Pawek_13 said:
A few months ago I decided to do a playthrough through all the campaigns, so it meant that well-known teritiory of ToE had to be abandoned, so nearly all of its modifications, including changes in skillwheel, were absent from my experience for a couple of months.
Wasn't it so that you could use the ToTE changes (like caravans and creature accumulation in dwellings) in the original campaigns? I remember playing through them that way.
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Avonu
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
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posted April 16, 2015 02:48 PM |
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husham123 said:
Now my 2 favorite games are Homm3 and Homm7.
OK... Who of you invented time-travel device/spell and why i didn't know anything about it? 
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"When someone desires information, they come to me."
"Details are everything."
Pipiru piru piru pipiru pi!
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted April 16, 2015 02:52 PM |
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husham123 said:
I never used to play other Heroes than 3, but in my opinion all are awsome, and with each advance the Heroes become more awsome, and I like the Heroes 7.
Now my 2 favorite games are Homm3 and Homm7.
partial to Homm2 and Homm13 myself lol
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted April 16, 2015 02:52 PM |
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LizardWarrior said:
How about a combination of random skills and non-random perks? I'm thinking about a hybrid skill system, where once you level up you have to pick between 2 secondary skills and you also get 1 perk point. Every skill would have several perks like in h5, but you can select which one you want the moment they are available, without having to "waste" a level up to select one. So basically you get one random skill and a perk of your choice every level-up.
Let's use an example: your Hero has 3 skills so far: offense, logistics and war machines, all of them on basic/novice level, after he levels up he gets to chose between advanced offense and basic leadership, you select the second. Now besides you got a new skill, you also got a perk point to spent on one of your abilities, now you got to chose a perk from the 4 skills you got, or to keep it for another skill. In order to balance this system, it would be required to put a cap of let's say 2 perks out of 5 total perks for every skill, while perks require different levels of the skill in order to be unlocked (basic, advance, expert), or a total cap of X perks per Hero, so you can select all perks from a skill.
I believe this system keeps both the randomness but also allows better customization, it could also work with h5-like prerequisites, you could save the perk points until you get enough skills to define your strategy.
That's basicaly what I was saying ... yes. Also Galaad is right that it was suggested in H5 times ... I liked this idea then, and I like it still. To me it's best of both worlds, and natural development of H5 system. Unfortunatly Ubi diecided to not evolve H5 system, but instead started from scratch  . I wonder who told them that was good idea? Not only skills, they decided to scrape lots of good ideas H5 started and begun anew (like secondary upgrades, initiative etc.) ... I'm not expert at development but ... isn't that kinda counter-productive?
Also with Ashan. H5 Ashan was diferent (some would say a lot better) than H6 Ashan. Why didn't they stick with what they had and just improved it then? Waste of resourcess if you ask me.
verriker said:
partial to Homm2 and Homm13 myself lol
Yep Homm 13 was good ... they did a lot of retconing from Homm 12 tho ...
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted April 16, 2015 04:48 PM |
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husham123 said:
I never used to play other Heroes than 3, but in my opinion all are awsome, and with each advance the Heroes become more awsome, and I like the Heroes 7. Now my 2 favorite games are Homm3 and Homm7.
How can you consider something you've never played to be awesome? 
Quote:
Still, my CD/DVD Driver is broke, and could buy the game, but couldn't install it. Does anyone know an alternative link ?
Since Heroes7 isn't available yet (contrary to popular belief), you can't install it in whatsoever way. Besides that, do you still buy hardcopies? Most games I play these days are all downloads, mostly from Steam. No more hassle with CD's and DVD's  .
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the_green_drag
Supreme Hero
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posted April 16, 2015 05:02 PM |
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The new hassle is dealing with steam! Man do I miss CDs! Hope the collectors edition comes with the hard copy
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted April 16, 2015 05:09 PM |
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the_green_drag said:
The new hassle is dealing with steam! Man do I miss CDs! Hope the collectors edition comes with the hard copy
It probably does with the artbook and the soundtrack and the statue and other such things.
However you'll still have to hassle with Uplay.
Still it's a step up from hassle with Uplay and Steam together.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted April 16, 2015 05:14 PM |
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Edited by Pawek_13 at 17:17, 16 Apr 2015.
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Maurice said:
Wasn't it so that you could use the ToTE changes (like caravans and creature accumulation in dwellings) in the original campaigns? I remember playing through them that way.
Some of them were present like Autosaves and Necromancy from ToE but sadly, there were no caravans.
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the_green_drag
Supreme Hero
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posted April 16, 2015 05:15 PM |
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Yes it is. I lost shades of darkness through such a hassle. I'm glad h7 only requires activation. My Internet connection isn't great but it shouldn't be an obstacle in the way of me playing heroes.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted April 16, 2015 07:03 PM |
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Minastir
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 16, 2015 07:09 PM |
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Dave_Jame said:
Imani the Warchief
She looks to human :-(
I have been watching too much House of Cards or she reminds me of Robin Wright 
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fuChris
Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
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posted April 16, 2015 07:09 PM |
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Dave_Jame said:
Imani the Warchief
She looks to human :-(
Which human is she looking to?
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"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted April 16, 2015 07:14 PM |
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Dave_Jame said:
Imani the Warchief
She looks to human :-(
Her in-game portrait is much less humane than her on that fanart.
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted April 16, 2015 07:20 PM |
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the_green_drag said:
The new hassle is dealing with steam! Man do I miss CDs! Hope the collectors edition comes with the hard copy
Same here ... tho, on other hand, Steam makes things realy practical (also cheaper in some cases), to buy from. GoG aswell. Still ... I do miss the sense of "ownership" CD's gave you.
It could be a problem with todays games. Well, not todays but games get generaly biger in size, so in future, they would need to come on 5 or maybe even 10 DVD's or so ... or blu-ray (which again is a questionable investment at this point). This was same with floppy disks. Some games came on like 8 floppies ... I had Doom on 4 (but lost 2 of disks ). Later same thing happened with CD's and now DVD's.... In future this will not happen tho, as the sky is limit - so I get why hard media (hard media? LOL Idk how to say it) is dying and replaced by digital media.
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
