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| Thread: I don't think that HERO should get into battle, why? read more... | |
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malkia
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted May 12, 2001 11:39 AM |
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I don't think that HERO should get into battle, why? read more...
I've bought AOW days ago - and I'm playing it.
It's very different from Heroes - for example you can't have STACKS of skeletons or pikemens or whatever troop - it's more like real army type.
But you can have two or more heroes into one army, and one of your heroes is the LEADER - the one you start with.
And imagine that - my hero got killed - and GAME OVER... well i felt like... "STOP PLAYING THAT GAME"... No probably, i'll try it again... but this really make sick.
So let's imagine this into HEROES4 - your HERO goes into battle - and guess what - somebody puts a spell on him - and that's it - no more hero - no more being busy developing him and so. Even if in Heroes4 you can't cast spell on hero (which will be bad as design) then hero must be easy killed by 1000. If even designers said that 1000 whatever can't kill a hero - then 10000 should - otherwise - the game goes way too unbalanced - and way not too heroes of might and magic.
Another thing that really think is ambigitous is the fact when you have two or more heroes - which one will give the army ATTACK/DEFENSE or other skill bonuses. Okay - let's assume MAIN hero is defined from all troops - he gives ATTACK DEFENSE to all. Then the other hero next to him - should also receive it's ATTACK/DEFENSE? or not? if he receives then he'll be stronger than main hero. If not - well - don't know.
If this can be stopped I want HEROES not to be into battle.
And I don't want another heroes to join heroes.
Why if you have 1000 pikemans, your hero should take part into battle - as somebody said the game is too unreal - well this here seems unreal. Yes they are heroes - they are heroic - but how can ONE hero be stronger than 1000 of something whatever else? The GENERAL or COMMANDER always stays away from the battle - he COMMANDS, he does not FIGHTS.
Also this presumes that MIGHTY GORGONS must dissappear - cause they may fear the HERO and he may die of pneumonia - and that's bad for all of us.
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raZor_X
Promising
Known Hero
The mysterious Warlock
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posted May 12, 2001 05:09 PM |
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If you dont like some of the features in heroes4, then you play heroes3, very simple....  .
I really think that heroes fighting is a very cool thing, there is not going to be only one main hero in heroes4, but multiple of them. If one dies, there is another one. Thats why you have hundreds of them to choose from. Be optimistic, if heroes fight (all we know that), that I'm sure that 3do solved this in the best way...
raZor_X
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Valeriy
Mage of the Land
Naughty, Naughty Valeriy
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posted May 12, 2001 10:28 PM |
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There's an option in AOW saying "play after main hero dies" 
Maybe you will have a choice in H4 whether to enter hero into the battle? The battlefield is huge and I think no creature will cover it in one turn, so a hero can run just in time in almost any battle.
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You can wait for others to do it, but if they don't know how, you'll wait forever.
Be an example of what you want to see on HC and in the world.
http://www.heroesofmightandmagic.com
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pluvious
Promising
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 12, 2001 11:08 PM |
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One key to point that we don't know (as far as I know) is how homm4 will handle + bonuses to attack and defense of creatures...with multiple heroes in battle.
Will each give bonuses to attack? If so then the chances to get pluses will likely be less I would I think. Anyway, I like the idea of a slightly lesser role of heroes and having to build up more than one hero. It tends to emphasize all elements of the game rather than just building one tough hero to do all your fighting.
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...Pluvious...
-The Storm Before the Calm-
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Flector
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 14, 2001 02:23 PM |
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My 'Escort Hero' command idea
Malkia I agree on your concerns about fighting heroes.
In fact, just after the first h4 screenshot came out i posted a few articles about this (as a guest). See the 'Heroes 4 first screenshot AOH discussion' thread.
I will summarize my most important points from those posts:
How can my hero survive against 5 dragons (or 10, or even 50 dragons)? At some point the number of monsters and therefore damage dealt is just too big. After ONE such attack my hero dies, and in the current tactical war model there is absolutely no way i could prevent this.
High defense and resistance skills don't really help. Not only could does this have the potential drawback of making nearly invincible heroes (as was the case in the 'age of wonders' game). But also later in the game (or on larger maps) battles tend to get bigger with many more units involved. At some point the number of monsters involved and therefore damage dealt to the hero will be just too big. My fear is that in a large battle between two armies both lead by a hero, the first round will lead to the death of both heroes.
The thing that makes it extremely difficult to balance the power of heroes is that the scale of battles is just so diverse in the Heroes series.
Now if we look at AOW. In AOW there's a maximum of 8 creatures in a stack. This means there is a fixed boundary on the number of creatures engaging in battle. This makes balancing heroes power much easier. However even there it went wrong!! I don't want to spoil your fun Malkia, but AOW has a major flaw in this respect (a leader with well chosen skills is simply invincible. You can win the game by only using your leader as attacking force; even on the highest difficulty level).
However, after a long thought I have found a great solution!!
Fighting heroes can work! if...
My idea is to add the 'escort hero' command to the list of possible commands you can give your creature stacks. If you give this order to a stack they will escort and defend the hero against attacks. Enemy stacks who want to attack the hero, must first kill of the defending stack(s). In this way we can protect our heroes, without making them invincible.
I really like this idea!! What is your opinion ?
PS: Sorry for the long post. But I think this is really important.
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malkia
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted May 14, 2001 05:50 PM |
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Quote:
Now if we look at AOW. In AOW there's a maximum of 8 creatures in a stack. This means there is a fixed boundary on the number of creatures engaging in battle. This makes balancing heroes power much easier. However even there it went wrong!! I don't want to spoil your fun Malkia, but AOW has a major flaw in this respect (a leader with well chosen skills is simply invincible. You can win the game by only using your leader as attacking force; even on the highest difficulty level).[/quoute]
I bought AOW - to see how is the game - I want to start up my free source based strategy game (not so good as Heroes) - and I was searching for ideas. I really don't like AOW so much - but I'm gonna play it.
About escorting heroes - that's very good idea. You may want your hero either fight or escort.
AOW is one point ahead when using heroes in battles - because you can't put 100 goblins in one stack - and the is kind of scaled - but even with that - my heroes are very weak and they die fast.
So you really can't scale in Heroes4 HERO against any other ARMY. It's not RAMBO film to kill 1000 goblins with his knife
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Flector
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 15, 2001 09:10 AM |
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My 'Escort Hero' command idea (2)
We agree on the fact that it is impossible to scale the hero's power against ANY other army without changes in the tactical model.
However I am not sure you understood my escort hero idea.
In the tactical screen in H3 you can give commands to your creature stacks like 'attack, defend, wait'. I would like to add a new command here: 'escort hero'. Creature stacks who receive this command will move next to and defend the hero against attacks, until their next turn (off course you could give the same command again then to protect your hero for a longer time).
Enemy stacks who want to attack the hero, must first kill of the escorting stack(s).
In this way we can protect our heroes as much as we would like. I could use my 20 dragons to escort my hero. My hero is well protected then, however i cannot actively use the 20 dragons to attack. This would give room for more and interesting strategies.
In a way this WOULD scale heroes power!
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Ash-NIR
Known Hero
the Black Warlock
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posted July 05, 2001 08:38 PM |
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Actually the Heroes won't die no matter what, there are three possibilities:
1. Battle is won (Hero is ok)
2. Battle is won (Hero is unconsious [needs town to heal])
3. Battle is lost (Hero is captured by the opponent)
...and btw, it is the best change in the game (After all it is "HEROES of Might and Magic", with no Heroes in combat what is the point?)
Moderator's note:This topic has been closed, as it refers to an older version of the game. To discuss Heroes 3, please go to Library Of Enlightenment, to discuss Heroes 4, please go to War Room Of Axeoth.
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"ana:l nathrakh, u:rth va:s bethud, dokhje:l djenve"
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