|
|
Ovni
Tavern Dweller
|
posted April 06, 2003 08:25 PM |
|
|
Sieges
i haven't found any thread talking about sieges...so, what about sieges?
i dont like all towns having the same castle for sieges... its good for "LIVE town" but other towns having that castle...(for example nature town living into a castle isn't very real) so, why not make diferent sieges for diferent towns?
for example, necropolis town:
-without castle
-some stacks of skeleton/zombies are raised at the begining of every round
-half movement for attacking units
-negative moral
-some units can suffer panic (paralyzed some rounds)
so, when you attack an undead town, you will fight vs A LOT of skeletons/zombies, your units can suffer negative moral/panic...it's more real. it's not hard work to do this, and it adds some strategy (if your enemy is playing undead you have to use flying creatures because the don't have that movement penalty...or...)
what do you think?
p.d: sorry for my inglish... 
|
|
Magus
Hired Hero
Warper of Time-Space
|
posted April 07, 2003 01:50 AM |
|
|
I think that is an excellent idea, for a life town maybe all friendly units are healed a bit and undead are damaged, and order casts random beneficial spells on your army, etc.
____________
So was the land riven by Chaos and Destruction, and so it was cleansed from existence. I did this, the Magus of Ly'kail, Magus of the Sylvan Kingdoms.
|
|
Marelt_Ekiran
Promising
Famous Hero
Watcher of All
|
|
posted April 07, 2003 03:01 AM |
bonus applied. |
|
I think the castles should keep the basic features, like a wall, a drawbridge and towers, but you are right about adding aditional things. A complaint that I often heared about HOMM4 was that the fortification upgrades were too expensive in comparison to the results. So the features added should look like this:
All fortifications:
Fort --> Wall and a drawbrige with 50HP. 25% attack and defense added for attacking through walls.
Citadel --> Drawbridge with 100HP. 50% attack and defense added for attacking through walls. One archer's tower with a 100% boost in attack and defense (not added to defense of wall). Adds some kind of moat, which have to be crossed, before reaching the gate. All ground troops have to wait one turn in the moat before proceeding.
Castle --> Drawbridge with 150HP. 100% attack and defense added for attacking through walls. Three archer's towers with a 100% boost for attacking through walls.
Life:
Fort --> 2+ morale for all friendly troops. Spell tower randomly casts the bless spell on a stack at the start of each round.
Citadel --> 4+ morale for all friendly troops. Spell tower randomly casts bless, spiritual armour, retribution or mirth on a predetermined group at the start of each round. Adds a moat which lowers enemy attack by 30% while in there.
Castle --> 6+ morale for all friendly troops. All creature are permanently under the bless spell and regenerate 25 HP per turn. The spell tower now shows a spell book with the previously mentioned spells, to be operated by player. The moat now lowers attack and defense by 30%.
Order:
Fort --> All enemy creatures -1 speed and movement. Spell tower randomly casts blur among your troops.
Citadel --> All enemy creatures -25% speed and movement. Spell tower randomly casts blur among your troops and randomly ice bolt, cowardice or power drain (if applicable) on an enemy stack. Entering the moat has a 30% chance of getting frozen for two turns.
Castle --> All enemy creatures -50% speed and movement. The spell tower casts a controlled cowardice, ice bolt and power drain at start of each turn. All friendly creatures have a blur spell and entering the moat has a 50% chance of freezing.
Nature:
Fort --> +2 luck and +1 speed and movement for all friendly creatures. Every turn, a certain number of wolves is summoned.
Citadel --> +4 luck and +2 speed and movement for all friendly creatures. Every turn, a certain number of tigers is summoned. The moat consists of plants that ensnare anyone who walk on them. An ensnared stack cannot retaliate.
Castle --> +6 luck and +3 speed and movement for all friendly creatures. Every turn, a certain number of griffins is summoned. The moat now also gives the victim a 30% drop in defense.
Chaos:
Fort --> -2 luck for all enemy targets. The spell tower randomly casts the bloodlust spell.
Citadel --> -4 luck for all enemy targets. The spell tower randomly casts the bloodlust spell and randomly a magic arrow spell on an enemy stack. The moat causes fire damage to any creature that touches it.
Castle --> -6 luck for all enemy targets. The spell tower casts a controlled fireball spell. All friendly targets are under influence of bloodlust and the battlefield is randomly covered with landmines, which only the defender can see. There are always landmines in the piece of land between moat and gate.
Death:
Fort --> -2 morale for all enemy targets. The spell tower randomly curses an enemy target.
Citadel --> -4 morale for all enemy targets. The spell tower randomly casts curse, disrupting ray, weakness and sorrow on a player-determined stack. A moat is placed which causes damage to any stack entering it.
Castle --> -6 morale for all enemy targets. All enemy targets suffer from the curse spell and the spell tower can cast a controlled weakness, sorrow, disrupting ray, aura of fear, magic leech (determine a caster to accept mana) and raise ghost. The moat now poisons the victim.
Might:
Fort --> +10% attack and defense for all friendly targets throughout the battle, added to wall bonus. One shot from the arrow tower.
Citadel --> +20 % attack and defense for all friendly targets throughout the battle, added to wall bonus. Two shots from the arrow tower. The moat decreases defense by 25%.
Castle --> +30 % attack and defense for all friendly targets throughout the battle, added to wall bonus. Three shots from the arrow tower. The moat decreases defense by 40%.
*Note. The spell tower or arrow tower should perhaps not be included in the initial deal, but can be purchased additionally. I always like to have a lot of buildings to be build in a town. In HOMM4, the building was basically done after you had the level 4 dwelling. I like a bit more resources on the map and then keep upgrading your castles more and more. More information gatherers, more possibilities in the tavern, better defenses, more levels of creatures (we're getting 6), more unique buildings per city.
____________
Perception is everything.
|
|
Magus
Hired Hero
Warper of Time-Space
|
|
posted April 07, 2003 09:59 PM |
|
|
Another addition to castle defense could be militia if your castle is attacked unguarded. If the enemy is of an opposite alignment and he captures the town, the people could rebel.
P.S. Is there any way to attach a file to a post? Thanks in advance.
____________
So was the land riven by Chaos and Destruction, and so it was cleansed from existence. I did this, the Magus of Ly'kail, Magus of the Sylvan Kingdoms.
|
|
Saruman
Famous Hero
On academic leave
|
posted April 14, 2003 11:20 PM |
|
|
Siege Weapons
Those are my thoughts exactly Marelt_Ekiran. Although all those benifets should make the castle more expensive. Some more ideas: I think the spell tower should actually be the mage guild, so that you could cast all the spells within. With this in mind, Mage Guild levels 1-3 only should be allowed with a fort, 4-5 with a citidel, and 6 with the castle. The tower on which the creatures stand should be purchased seperately, and all alignments should be able to build fortifications with their own benefits (Such as spiked barricades, a wider wall so that troops can stand on it, etc.).
Related topic: Siege weapons. I was very disapointed when 3DO took away the siege weapons. Here are my ideas:
Siege Engineers' Workshop
An in-town only building, depending on structures in town, allows for the purchase of certain siege weapons, depending on the town.
The Gate
The attackable (Units only) gate should be removed. Bring back the drawbridge that can only be destroyed by catapult.
Mangonel (Traditional Catapult)
Slows army by 25% on adventure map. Launches 1 stone each round at walls/gate. 30% miss chance. Takes three successful hits to knock down wall.
Mechanical, Large(+40% HP/Defense)
Onager
Upgraded Mangonel (Siege weapons can only be upgraded at a siege workshop, and adventure object)
More hit points/defense than Mangonel. Launches 1 stone each round. Slows army by 30%. 25% miss chance. Takes two successful hits to knock down wall.
Mechanical, Large, Armored (+25% Defense)
Trebuchet
Availible only at Siege Workshop. Reduces army movement by 50%. Launches 1 shot every 2 rounds. 30% Miss chance. Takes one successful hit to knock down wall. Attacks towers (Including Spell Tower/Arrow Tower) Takes 2 successful hits to take down one level of spell tower/3 hits to to take down arrow tower. Can attack ground with specific area effect for each alignment. Cannot move.
Mechanical, Extra Large (+50% HP/Defense), Weak points (5% chance that attacker will do 100dmg to Trebuchet)
Battering Ram
Attacks walls/gate/units. Reduces army movement by 40%. 50% penalty to dmg to units. 50% bonus to walls/gate. Up to 4 units can garrison inside for +250% Ranged Attack Armor and +10% bonus to attack of ram vs walls (Culmative).
Mechanical, Large, Low attack (Cannot attack units on other side of walls/on towers.)
Capped Ram
Upgraded ram. Slows army movement by 45%. 6 Units may garrison inside for +300% pierce armor and +15% bonus on ram attack vs walls. Greater attack, HP, and Armor (Both types).
Ballista
Availible to all towns, Life town mill need to find another unit to replace them.
Ballistics (Skill)
Increases attack, defense and rate of fire of siege weapons. Expert or higher allows for player control of catapult-type siege weapons.
Alignment variations
Siege weapons are slightly different in attack, defense, HP, etc. depending on the town. The battlefield model is also different for each town. Some siege weapons cannot be purchased by certain alignments.
____________
Thank god I'm an atheist.
|
|
Marelt_Ekiran
Promising
Famous Hero
Watcher of All
|
|
posted April 15, 2003 12:21 AM |
|
|
Take a look at my journal at the Guardian's Grove a bit later today. I will be posting my ideas for the new Life town there. The new town contains 6 levels of two creatures each. I've taken away the ballista and added a number of magic and angelic creatures. A special form of ballista is available at the Alchemist town.
Also, if the battle machines are to be brought back, it should be limited to an attacker of castle walls (although the HOMM4 system was not that bad) and an attacker of people. Both with perhaps one or two upgrades. Too many of these non-creature things on the battlefield would be to complex (because you have to add the machines in addition to the creatures).
____________
Perception is everything.
|
|
Saruman
Famous Hero
On academic leave
|
|
posted April 15, 2003 12:27 AM |
|
|
Simple solution: Siege Slots
Siege slots would be special artifact slots. each hero would only have 3.
Rams take up 1 siege slot.
Mangonels/Onagers take up 2.
Trebuchets take up all 3.
Ballistae take up 1.
____________
Thank god I'm an atheist.
|
|
Ghost_of_Lor...
Adventuring Hero
The first Holy Ghost
|
posted April 15, 2003 02:19 AM |
|
|
I think all those sieg weapons is a bit accesive...
____________
|
|
Lordskeleton
Adventuring Hero
The really REALLY bad guy
|
|
posted April 17, 2003 10:05 PM |
|
|
Not to mention, a sudden feeling of AoE II in the back of my head. I'm all for the siege units but why not stick with the original ideas from Lotrealm2 with catapult, battering ram and siege tower. If we're going for the advanced constructions I'm sure there must be some ideas that haven't been implemented by AoE II.
____________
Vad gagnar det en människa om han vinner hela världen men förlorar sin själ?
|
|
nasty
Known Hero
castor nebun si orb pe cinste
|
|
posted April 17, 2003 11:42 PM |
|
|
I think that indeed the castles should be different...they should be like this:at the nature castle...the whole castle should be made of trees(greentrees...that are not cut)...and on top of them like the turrets there should be dendroids..protecting the castle throwing with sones or wood into the enemy or elves...or gargantuas.(and some parts of the wall should be alive retaliating when the units atack)
At the necropolis town it should be like this:the walls of the town should be entirely made by bones and some spirits of the people that got killed there..the bones should have life in them..moving their arms from the wall and when a life unit stands next to the wall and those hands touch him they drain life from him.Also in the turets there are liches defending the town(there should get back those protectors from the 3 turets).
The order town should have walls made by magic...flowing magic...that keeps the enemies away..it would be harder to
knock down and the siege weapons are useless...
there should be different siege weapons for every castle.
ex:for the castle catapult.
for the preserve there should be a creature that digs holes benith the castle walls.(it would take him a couple of rounds).or the gargantua that throws boulders on the walls
for the necropolis there should be a catapult that throws acid on the walls destroing it quickly.
for the barbarians there should be another cyclop creature more peacefull that would only "harm" walls.
for the assylum there should be a chaotic creature very powerfull that rips of pieces of the wall(by the way the walls can be attacked like in hIII).
....so in that manner the fantasy would become greater and...more animated than using the basic siege weapons...i'm sure the preserve didnt use catapults.
____________
You can trick me with food.Possesions mean nothing to a navajo.
|
|
ThE_HyDrA
Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
|
|
posted April 18, 2003 05:17 AM |
|
|
Interesting topic
It is no surprise to us that the meaning of 'siege' in the Heroes series has changed significantly throughout the differing versions, namely, Heroes III and IV. The two systems both had their merits, and it was certainly intriguing to view the different strategies that these two methods could bring about. Heroes III sported the catapult, as we know, and Heroes IV introduced the Heroes world at least, with a gate. Now, I know there are opinions which differentiate on this debate, and therefore difficult to tell which of the two methods is more beneficial or efficient. I'm not going to attempt to answer this, instead, I'll merely state my opinion.
Heroes III, like preivous series before it, utilised the catapult process in order to infiltrate towns in a 'siege'. It had worked very well in all series, and it provided enough strategy, and luck for that matter, to keep the outcome of the siege unpredicatable. Another positive point is that it encouraged, or even enticed the hero to develop a skill that would help it in the siege, i.e. ballistics. This was an important skill that was shown through siege combat, and it could help determine the outcome in favour of the attacker. The catapult method also allowed for several ways of entry, and even able to attack creatures in the towers. Catapults were very intrumental in the result of a siege combat.
The inclusion of the gate in Heroes IV was quite a good one, in my opinion. However, it is not significant enough to replace the versatile catapult. However, the engine of the gate worked surprisingly well in the context of the game, with the main positive sections being 50 damage maximum, and only hand to hand attacks. But, the gate provided the only entry to the siege, and made it increasingly hard for the army to penetrate the walls. Also, the creatures in the towers were not able to be touched, except for the spells, and these were only for a magic hero. While it is a good idea, it needs to be complimented with something.....
What I am suggesting is that we combine Heroes III and IV, and therefore extract the best parts from the two, and hopefully create a more balanced and strategic siege combat. I will explain each of the specifics (Catapult, Gate, Overall Siege Combat) below:
Catapult:
This weapon should work in a similar way to Heroes III. There should still be a secondary skill (ballistics) devoted to it to make the siege combat more in-depth and more reliant on hero and army strength. Depending again on the level of ballistics, the catapult will take one or two shots to detroy the wall. Also, on higher levels of proficiency, it will be able to target the towers, and on the highest level, the player will be able to control it totally.
The catapult can be destroyed, like in previous series, although it cannot attack the gate a la Heroes III I believe it was. Also, if no level of ballistics has been studied, the catapult can miss the wall. This suggests the catapult is more of a weapon for the might heroes, and thus making them more vital to possess in sieges.
Gate:
The gate, again, will work in a similar manner to that of Heroes IV. It will take 50 damage, maximum, and controllable from the inside by the defenders of the castle. However, a change is that it can be attacked by ranged attackers. The reason for this is that they are useless since it would be ludicrous to attack tower dwelling creatures (mainly rangers) and usually impossible to reach people inside the wall. However, the catch is that they only do 1/4 of their full damage. And still have to abide by the maximum of 50 damage rule.
The gate can also be used as a drawbridge by the defender, and if a creature happened to be defeated on the gate while it was in the drawbridge position, it will stay across the moat, and a pathway for both sides.
Moat:
The moat will not function in a close fashion to its previous counterparts. It will not lower the creatures statistics if they happen to dwell in it for a turn. Instead, it lowers their movement and speed by 2. I believe it was too much of a penalty for staying stationary in the moat. Also, on top of the negated 2 speed and movement, it takes an extra turn to get out of the moat, and the -2 speed and movement persist a turn after that.
The moat is purchased as a part of the citadel, just as the towers are bought with the castle. This, in my opinion, will make the two upgrades of the fort a more precious commodity than they were in Heroes IV.
Overall Siege Combat:
I believe this merging of the two systems should work quite well, since there could have been something to compliment them previously, as solely relying on one aspect to infiltrate the castle weights the object too heavily.
There will be three towers, however, they will not be in the Heroes IV position, instead, in the Heroes III formation, but the computer controlled creatures do not occupy those areas. Nothing does until you place them there during combat. The central tower deals more damage, and less damage is dealt to it since it is further away. It takes one turn to enter the tower/s.
Also, I believe that every castle should be unique, not only in the styling of the castle, but each castle has their special bonus, which is beneficial to the defender. Something like:
Chaos: All spells do 25% more
Death: 10% Necromancy is in effect
Life: Morale of all creatures heightens by 2
Order: Spells cost 2 points less
Nature: Summoned creatures are retained after battles
Might: Walls, Gate, are 25% stronger
While it is only a theory, and will continue to be, I believe that it will fair quite well if it were to be placed into the game.
____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”
|
|
Magus
Hired Hero
Warper of Time-Space
|
|
posted April 18, 2003 03:53 PM |
|
Edited By: Magus on 18 Apr 2003
|
Hydra, with the different bonuses that come with the castles, would these be buildings (like storm, rainbow, abbey, tavern in I-III) or just intrisic to the alignment?
Another thing I just thought of is to make the sieges actual sieges. When you prepare to attack a castle, you wait outide, stopping the flow of men, armies, and resources in and out. Taxes(town income) would not be collected. You may choose to attack when you arrive, or you could choose to wait for the double effect of sapping their resources and to build your own siege weapons. the ideas I have for siege weapons:
Catapult: obvious purpose, can be destroyed, with master/grandmaster ballistics can target creatures(with little accuracy)
Siege tower: Attaches to enemy wall and acts as a connection between the two sides. can hold 1 stack. stack can use tower like heroes IV castle towers if not connected. Can be destroyed, doing severe damage to stack it carries
Battering ram: only creatures with a special can actually attack a gate. the battering ram can assist in breaking down the gate. can be destroyed.
In addition, there needs to be more diverse types of castle defense. Cauldrons of boiling oil, deathtraps, and more magical things corresponding to the alignment of the town.
All for now
____________
So was the land riven by Chaos and Destruction, and so it was cleansed from existence. I did this, the Magus of Ly'kail, Magus of the Sylvan Kingdoms.
|
|
nasty
Known Hero
castor nebun si orb pe cinste
|
|
posted April 19, 2003 11:32 PM |
|
|
You think only at catapults ,batering ram,ballistics....why dont you think about things that could introduce you into fantasy...i dont think the mages used catapults...or the nature town...they used creatures to attack a town...they came through forests...they couldnt pick a catapult...imagine my ideea that i wrote last time...wouldnt it be great to have more magic...not just catapults,balista...more fantasy...diferent siege weapons for every castle.
____________
You can trick me with food.Possesions mean nothing to a navajo.
|
|
Magus
Hired Hero
Warper of Time-Space
|
|
posted April 20, 2003 03:35 AM |
|
|
I was keeping with more mundane things there, took most of them from Lords of the Realm II, but for magical ones, many you suggest would just be creatures who could damage walls (cyclopes in HoMMIII). Also many spells (Earthquake) could be used for siege combat. That's not to say there shouldn't be magical siege weapons, Tinker gnome designed cannons and explosives would be nice...
____________
So was the land riven by Chaos and Destruction, and so it was cleansed from existence. I did this, the Magus of Ly'kail, Magus of the Sylvan Kingdoms.
|
|
Lordskeleton
Adventuring Hero
The really REALLY bad guy
|
posted April 20, 2003 12:12 PM |
|
|
Or we just introduce the BFG to the Heroes series.
____________
Vad gagnar det en människa om han vinner hela världen men förlorar sin själ?
|
|
Magus
Hired Hero
Warper of Time-Space
|
|
posted April 20, 2003 03:55 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Or we just introduce the BFG to the Heroes series.
Isn't that what a tinker gnome designed cannon is?
____________
So was the land riven by Chaos and Destruction, and so it was cleansed from existence. I did this, the Magus of Ly'kail, Magus of the Sylvan Kingdoms.
|
|
Lordskeleton
Adventuring Hero
The really REALLY bad guy
|
posted April 20, 2003 08:11 PM |
|
|
Death gnome of quad damage and destruction. Think we have a lvl 6 creature here?
____________
Vad gagnar det en människa om han vinner hela världen men förlorar sin själ?
|
|
valkyrica
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted April 21, 2003 02:13 AM |
|
|
saruman you can't implement age of empires units in heroes, it just doesn't work that way ..., next thing you'll know you may want to send out peasants to cut the trees down from the adventure map for wood and bring mountains down for gold and ore
____________
I'm Guybrush Threepwood, mighty pirate
|
|
Dingo
Responsible
Legendary Hero
God of Dark SPAM
|
|
posted June 15, 2003 09:27 PM |
|
|
Sounds like a good idea. Like in H3 all the towns had the same siege defenses except the tower. I think in H5 all the towns should have different sieges because the castles and towns are different. Great Ideas
Moderator's note:This topic has been closed, as it refers to an older version of the game. To discuss Heroes 3, please go to Library Of Enlightenment, to discuss Heroes 4, please go to War Room Of Axeoth, to discuss Heroes 5, go to Temple Of Ashan.
____________
The Above Post/Thread/Idea Is CopyRighted by, The Dingo Corp.
|
| |
|
|
