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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: new upgrade system.
Thread: new upgrade system. This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT»
god_boy
god_boy


Known Hero
posted January 22, 2003 02:31 AM bonus applied.

new upgrade system.

there are only a certain number of real mythical and medieval units right? and we certainly don't want any made up ones, so how do we get around this problem and get new units? I've got an idea. just hear me out.

I'm going to use the example of the "castle/life" town. it is mostly human based, so of course most troops will be human.

Ok, we start off with a base unit: the recruit.
The we can upgrade him into any of the following:

note: more than one of these base upgrades can be built.

a. pikeman/spearman: bonus additional damage against large enemies eg. hydras and horsemen. takes additonal damage from archers (because they don't have shields)

b. swordsmen: has sword and shield. the all purpose soldier, ready to duke it out with man or monster. swordsmen can be upgraded then to either:
i. legion type shortswordsmen: has big interlocking shields which give them very good defence, especially against arrows, but lower attack as they have to hold smaller swords to make up for the huge shield.
ii. two handed swordsmen: no shield, so takes additional damage from archers, but really good attack (massive sword)

c. crossbowman: standard ranged unit armed with crossbow. can be upgraded into either:
i. archer: armed with bow and can shoot more shots per round than a crossbowman. takes more training so quite a bit more expensive.
ii. sharpshooter: increadible range with crossbow. can kill units outright like the gorgon in h3 or the medusa in h4. very low melee attack and defence.

d. cavalier: mounted swordsman with lances for charging. gets jousting bonus but takes addtional damage from spearmen or monsters armed with spears. can be upgraded into either:
i. knight: your classic monster slayer: bonus damage against large monsters such as dragons. gets big morale boost when greatly outnumbered by the enemy because the sense of duty and honour overwhelms them.
ii. champion: bonus damage against humanoid enemies (such as elves, goblins and trolls). always good morale.

note: the level difference is not so important here. the hitpoints that all the above creatures have are not too different, but the bonus damage that they do to certain creatures is when deploying them. also, there is no build order between different types of human units, so you can have an army of champions before any of the other structures are built. however there is an upgrade limit (see below) which means that not all your recruits can be used, encouraging you to build other structures as well.

also, obviously some creatures such as the mounted units, will be more expensive than the footmen, and footmen are more numerous than cavalry. and to prevent massive armies of sharpshooters, they will be significantly more expensive to upgrade than archers, and there is an upgrade limit (as there is only so much equipment in the training facility) therefore, you may only upgrade weekly a certain number of your crossbowmen into sharpshooters, and you can't then bring troops from another town to be upgraded in this town as the limit has been reached.

no, this is not the entire castle troop system. it's just the first level or so. there will also be other types of troops such as griffins, monks and angels which have a different upgrade system and not nearly as many upgrades as human soldiers (as this town is human based). effectively, there will only be four or so levels, but there are more creatures overall and cost will play a big part of the upgrading system.

I'm working on the other creatures at the moment, but you get the idea.
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EvilLoynis
EvilLoynis


Famous Hero
The Dark Shadow
posted January 22, 2003 03:21 AM

Keep it coming

I like the ideas so far.  The only problem I have is that your making most of the units really vulnerable, especiailly since these are supposed to be 1st and 2nd level creatures.  But some of there specialties seem to make up for it.

Can't wait to see what you do with the Necropolis.  Should be interesting.

 Maybe for the Angels they should make different classes.  Like Avenging Angel gets more powerfull the more of your units die, like a rage sort of thing. Then you have your Cupids maybe and they can seduce some of the enemy into either deserting or joining you.  Then of course the Guardian Angels, massive defence and hp, but low Attack and speed and they have the Resurection spell.  What do you think?
 And those Monks maybe become spell casters, and have spells like bless, Spiritual armor and stuff like that.
____________

"I am both selfish and instictive.  I value nature and the world around me as means to an end as well as an end in itself; at best I ... too long to display...

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ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted January 22, 2003 09:51 AM

New Upgrade Systems


Well, I believe that there can be many mythological and medieval units when one puts their mind to finding them. Many of them have not been used in the Heroes series, and it is just a matter of doing some research to acquire knowledge of them and place it into the game. That aside, your list of units for the "Knight Castle" or Haven seem pretty accurate and medieval to me.
One thing I realise with your choice of units (and NWC's, for that matter) is that they are all of english origin, from the English middle ages. While the Heroes game doesn't make distinctions upon which part of the earth the creatures are from, it would nice to see some diversity. Such as a Greek Hoplite or Phalanx. These can be closely likened to the existing units by their armour and weapons. Some creatures are from the middle ages, like knights, and some are from ancient myths, such as Hydras, Dragons, Manticores, etc.

The Base Unit:

My opinion on this is indefinite. Instead of 'The Recruit', there could be 3 different classes of creatures that begin the ungrading development. The 3 initial creatures can characterise the most important elements of a creature in the game. Since no creature-statistics information has been released yet, I can only judge off previous Heroes'.
For the Chaos Town:
Imp: Damage Dealt. If an attacking creature upgrade is chosen, the creature will do more damage than usual. (Of course, each creature has a base damage)
Rogue: Attack/Defense. The upgraded creature's attack and defence ratings will be boosted.
Gnoll: Hit Points. The upgraded creature's Hit Points will be boosted.
I am not sure about even my own idea at the moment, it may not fit in well with the Heroes V game itself. But it is destined for many changes, therefore maybe anything can be feasible....

The Upgrading System:

Your idea sounds very interesting, especially since it is still in the beginning stages of development and difficult to insert a whole new upgrading system into the world of Heroes of Might and Magic V.
There are a few queries I have about your idea, but I will address them later.

I think it is commendable that you have pondered up 3 creatures for each upgrade class-except the Pikeman.While I understand it is difficult to find alternative upgrades relating to this creature, the upgrading system will be unbalanced if there are 3 upgrades, 3 upgrades, 3 upgrades, and then 1 upgrade to choose from.
Although, I do think that 3 is a good number to work with in terms of the amount of alternative upgrades.

I take it that there will be about 5 upgrading classes to advance with. I think that these levels all have something to do with the original creature of the group, such as swordsman, legion, 2 handed swordsman. Given the (presumed) 5 upgrading class, X 3 creatures in each class makes 18 creatures per town-but the main aspect is... How many of these are recruitable?

The Level Difference:

I agree. With your system of upgrading, the levels become almost non existant, as there is no "set path" as such that one must follow. It is pretty much at the decision of the player. This I think, has the potential to add more strategy and interactivity if the idea is implemented correctly.

Also, the related-but different classes enhances the uniqueness of their special abilities, and really makes you think about the situation much more than in other Heroes'. The choice of 3 creatures instead of 2 can be a great change. It makes one think about the opponents, and which one of the creatures is best suited.

A question that has come to mind in this situation is: Will all the creature upgrade classes be selectable? If they are, I believe this will detract from the strategy aspect of the game a little bit, since having less base creatures means that one will have to think much harder to decide which creatures classes should be chosen.

Also, my guess is that the 3 creatures in the upgrading categories are not scaled in levels, such as 1->2->3? I am pretty sure they are not, but I don't think it has been made clear.

"as there is only so much equipment in the training facility)"

Then can one buy structures to increase the maximum capacity of that town? Maybe to bring some of the initiative back to constructing Citadels, Castles instead of Forts, building these will increase the amount of facilities it has to upgrade units.

"which have a different upgrade system and not nearly as many upgrades as human soldiers (as this town is human based)."

I believe the upgrade system should be the same for all types of creatures. Since you say it is a human based towns, why not just have more human based creatures instead of changing the upgrade system altogether? If you decide to change the upgrading system for just a handful of creatures, most likely the system of upgrading won't coexist very well.

Overall, I think that this idea has a great deal of potential and if it can be refined, should be a really laudable idea to place into the game. (If the NWC producers view the idea totally finished.)
____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

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god_boy
god_boy


Known Hero
posted January 24, 2003 01:53 AM

Quote:

One thing I realise with your choice of units (and NWC's, for that matter) is that they are all of english origin, from the English middle ages. While the Heroes game doesn't make distinctions upon which part of the earth the creatures are from, it would nice to see some diversity. Such as a Greek Hoplite or Phalanx. These can be closely likened to the existing units by their armour and weapons. Some creatures are from the middle ages, like knights, and some are from ancient myths, such as Hydras, Dragons, Manticores, etc.



Some really interesting points there. I will try to address them as i can:

The problem that i find with putting human units from other origins (eg. greek) such as hoplites into a human town is combining them effectively with medieval units. I might seem a bit strange with a hoplite standing next to a fully armour-clad swordsman. we'll see how we can get around that. maybe more than one town with human soldiers. Also, I believe that if we have both hoplites and their corrosponding medieval unit, then there will have to be some differences between them.

Quote:

The Base Unit:

My opinion on this is indefinite. Instead of 'The Recruit', there could be 3 different classes of creatures that begin the ungrading development. The 3 initial creatures can characterise the most important elements of a creature in the game. Since no creature-statistics information has been released yet, I can only judge off previous Heroes'.
For the Chaos Town:
Imp: Damage Dealt. If an attacking creature upgrade is chosen, the creature will do more damage than usual. (Of course, each creature has a base damage)
Rogue: Attack/Defense. The upgraded creature's attack and defence ratings will be boosted.
Gnoll: Hit Points. The upgraded creature's Hit Points will be boosted.



Your idea about having three base units seems pretty sound. I was thinking that we should add special abilities to these creatures instead of just boosting up their statistics. I reckon this will make the decision making process more interesting.

Quote:

The Upgrading System:

I think it is commendable that you have pondered up 3 creatures for each upgrade class-except the Pikeman.While I understand it is difficult to find alternative upgrades relating to this creature, the upgrading system will be unbalanced if there are 3 upgrades, 3 upgrades, 3 upgrades, and then 1 upgrade to choose from.
Although, I do think that 3 is a good number to work with in terms of the amount of alternative upgrades.



I've been working on the pikeman dilemma and came up with some new pikemen:
a.throwing pikemen (yeah, lame name. you guys could probably come up with something better): fast infantry unit. still does extra damage against cavalry. they are fast and are able to throw their light spears a short distance essentially making them a ranged unit. this would make them more effective agaist swordsmen type infantry as there is no retaliation if they throw their pikes/spears. very vulnerable to archer attacks though.
b.heavy pikemen: really massive pikes (like what the orc armies had in lord of the rings 2 movie) fifteen feet long. i'm told that this forest of pikes is actually very effective in stopping arrows. these guys would do lots of damage to large monsters and charging troops but are whithered by humanoid or other small or medium creatures as they can get between the sprears and attack the vulnerable spearman, who has little defence due to the weight of his massive pike.

Quote:

I take it that there will be about 5 upgrading classes to advance with. I think that these levels all have something to do with the original creature of the group, such as swordsman, legion, 2 handed swordsman. Given the (presumed) 5 upgrading class, X 3 creatures in each class makes 18 creatures per town-but the main aspect is... How many of these are recruitable?



All of the base troops (ie. those derived from the recruit such as the base crossbowman and swordsman) can be created. however, only one of the further improvements can be taken (ie. bowmen OR sharpshooters). and the upgrade limit for the further improvement will be lower than the upgrade limit for the base unit. what this will mean is that say that 30 of your recruits can be trained into archers. however only maybe 7 of these can then be trained into sharpshooters or 10 into bowmen. this will mean that the bulk of your units will still be the base unit and the upgraded ones more of an elite squad. This will of course mean that the average army has to carry around more troop stacks, which in turn means that the battlefield will have to be larger.

Quote:

A question that has come to mind in this situation is: Will all the creature upgrade classes be selectable? If they are, I believe this will detract from the strategy aspect of the game a little bit, since having less base creatures means that one will have to think much harder to decide which creatures classes should be chosen.



Overall there will be 8 recruitable creatures in just this human section of this town. The upgrade limit should get rid of the redundancy of the unupgraded unit found in heroes 3. Although all 4 creature class dwellings are buildable, the allocated number of recruits meant that not all of the upgrade slots will be usable. so you can either spread your recruits thin over all 4 classes, or focus on just two or so. i believe most will take this approach.

Quote:

Also, my guess is that the 3 creatures in the upgrading categories are not scaled in levels, such as 1->2->3? I am pretty sure they are not, but I don't think it has been made clear.



About levels: i'm suggesting that the human units are only the first level. the growth rate for these will then be much higher than higher level units. I'm working on the other units as we speak.

I hadn't intended for the different types of human units to be on a different level. however, i think that one on one, a cavalier should alway defeat a swordsman etc. but a cavalier will be quite a bit more expensive than the swordsman, and the upgrade limit will be lower.

I think the upgrades should be more for an ability adding bonus and parhaps only a small amount of increment to statistics.

Quote:

Then can one buy structures to increase the maximum capacity of that town? Maybe to bring some of the initiative back to constructing Citadels, Castles instead of Forts, building these will increase the amount of facilities it has to upgrade units.



thats a great idea. capacity adding structures. i like it.

Quote:

I believe the upgrade system should be the same for all types of creatures. Since you say it is a human based towns, why not just have more human based creatures instead of changing the upgrade system altogether? If you decide to change the upgrading system for just a handful of creatures, most likely the system of upgrading won't coexist very well.



yup working on it.


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ouse
ouse


Adventuring Hero
old man river
posted January 24, 2003 03:10 PM

hummmm.... if you dont mind me interupting, i think that i could provide some units,

phalanx- a greek warrior in plate armor, tower sheild and a 10 ft lance, good defence and can keep an enemy at bay,

cheribin (cupids)- i like your ideas on these guys

Serafin- as far as i know these are the superior angels, six independent wings and i guess swords...

suicide creatures- i think it would be useful to have an expendibe, low level unit with an explosive straped to his back,

and just a question, will it be possible to send more than one rank of creatures into battle at one time, if so, then those guys with two handed swords (claymores) would be invaluble...
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god_boy
god_boy


Known Hero
posted January 25, 2003 02:23 AM

sure its possible to send more than one troop into battle. what would be the fun if we couldn't?

ok, to fill in some more life/haven upgrades:

Level 2:
Griffins as a base unit. (recruits cannot be sent into battle. the base griffin can) All griffins also do more damage to mounted enemy units as griffins are the natural enemy of horses in mythology) These can be also created into:
a. Hippogriff: has the rear of a horse instead of a lion. Has a bonus to speed. Can carry riders of the following:
i. Hippogriff cavalry: takes a swordsman unit (so you must either train a swordsman first or have a swordsman class slot available to create a swordsman) This is effectively two units displayed as one. They have the combined statistics of both units but to join the two, there is an upgrade cost (for animal handling training and gear). Once joined, the two cannot be separated.
ii. Hippogriff archer: similar joining concept to hippogriff cavalry. however, you can either shoot OR use a melee attack. Shooting from a flying hippogriff will cause less damage than an archer shooting from the ground due to the unstable platform. Only the upgraded archers can be used (not crossbowmen as they cannot reload on a hippogriff) a melee attack from a hippogriff archer will do the damage of both the base hippogriff and the the archer's melee damage (1/2 ranged damage if that rule still applies)
b. Royal Griffins: Larger meaner and more royal looking griffins. This is a straight upgrade so there is a slight bonus to all aspects of the base griffin. These are the shock troops of the haven army. they can be deployed quickly to break up enemy tactics. Royal Griffins can be upgraded into:
i. Heavy Royal Griffins: These are the oversized specimens resulting from selective breeding. Their speed is somewhat decreased but their hitpoints are boosted along with their attack, defence and damage. These are classified as large monsters and so take additional damage from spear wielding troops.
ii. Light Royal Grififns: Leaner versions of th royal griffin. These troops are FAST. Because of their ability to zip around, they only take half damage from archer units. ideal for an antiarcher role.

Ok, here's something different that may add a bit more to gameplay. what do you think of a two leveled battlefield?
The first level would be the ground. Then there is a second level which is the air. Flying units in the air has to take a turn to get up there but once up, can only be attacked by ranged units on the ground, other airborne units, or spell casting units. Of course, to attack, they would have to get back on the ground, at which time they can be attacked by normal melee units. This would give an added advantage to airborne archers such as the hippogriff archer in that they can deal damage from the relative safety of height, even though the amount of damage is less.

Level 3:
Acolytes as a base unit. Medieval history was pretty religion based, so this would have to be part of the haven army. Acolytes themselves cannot be placed in battle but can be upgraded into:
a. Monks: The base monk is pretty weak and useless. They have even lower statistics than swordsmen. their only real advantage is that boost troop morale because of the religious vigour that they invoke. They really have to be upgraded to be somewhat more useful. Therefore, no more acolytes should be trained into monks than there are enough upgrade spaces for one of the further upgrades.
i. Warrior monk: These are elite martial arts warriors. They don't carry weapons but instead fight just with their hand. They are exceptionally agile. However, because their growth is relatively low compared to infantry, they are more suited at taking out enemy heroes. The warrior monk's attack, defence and damage are unusually high, and this makes up for their low hitpoints. Warrior monks have the special abilit of dodging attacks, so they have the chance to ignore damage much like a minotaur in heroes 4.
ii. Zealots: Religions fanatics which have to ability to cast a range of damage spells and invoke the wrath of god. They are able to reduce the hitpoints of all creatures in a single stack by 25%, much like the aging ability of a ghost dragon, once per battle.
b. Clerics: The cleric has the ability to heal units. The base cleric has this power to a small degree. Cleric statistics are very low and they should be used for a support role only. They can be upgraded into:
i. Priests: Priests have the healing power to a much higher degree. They can cast a range of healing spells. Once per round, they can fully heal the top units of every stack. This ability can only be used by once which means that if there are multiple stacks of priests, after the spell is cast, it cannot be recast by another stack. The healing power of priests depend on their number.
ii. Bishops: Bishops are vengeful towards the pagan enemies and as a result, has a range of spells which impede the enemy. The strenth of their spell depend on the number of bishops in the casting stack. Therefore, a large stacks of bishops could slow the enemy to a virtual halt, or if large enough, bring morale so low that most of them freeze in battle. However, as with Zealots, and the rest of the cleric class, bishops should be kept in the back line as they are very vulnerable to physical attacks.

Watch out for the angels, coming up in my next entry. Don't hesitate to inform me if you find any fault. Cheers.

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ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted January 25, 2003 12:26 PM

Continuation of New Upgrade System


I must congratualate you on your efforts, God_Boy. The product of your thoughts, one of the new upgrade system, is probably the best new idea I have read about. If this system can be expanded, and placed into whatever NWC have in store for Heroes V and its mechanics, it could work very well. But since not much is known about Heroes V it is difficult to foresee what is ahed, exactly.

"I might seem a bit strange with a hoplite standing next to a fully armour-clad swordsman."

Given time, I think people will come to realise that it is OK. In Heroes I, Dwarves(Norse) stood next to Elves(Myth) and Druids(English). These three creatures are different, but are stilled classed in the same castle, and I believe it worked well. Also in Heroes III, Dwarves and Dragons were in the same castle. I think the differences between a Hoplite and a Knight are minimal compared to what we have observed in previous series of Heroes. While the armour is different, they are both humans and both fight in the same manner.

"maybe more than one town with human soldiers."

I don't think so. I see not too much wrong with this except that the fans and players of Heroes do not like to have even one town of totally human creatures. They think it is plain and they need some 'fantasy'. I know this because I have spent a year and a half on this board reading and posting to similar conversations.

"I was thinking that we should add special abilities to these creatures instead of just boosting up their statistics. I reckon this will make the decision making process more interesting."

I also believe that doing this will be more beneficial. Beneficial in a way that the special abilities can further influence the choice of creatures, by deciding which specialty would be most needed and with what creature.

"I've been working on the pikeman dilemma and came up with some new pikemen:"

Your suggestions are commendable. I won't change them but modify what you have done in terms of the alternative pikeman upgrades.
a)Spearman: (I'm not confident that 'spearman' is a better name' Spearmen throw their javelins (their only propulsion is by hand, therefore, they are short ranged) and hit other targets. Quicker unit than the pikeman, but not overly fast. No melee penalty. Their javelins deal x2 damage to centaurs (reciprocates).
b)Macemen: Slower units that damage opponents with an elongated mace. This mace is able to stun the opponent. While the attack and damage is high, the defence and speed are low. Macemen also have above average HP because of their strength. Takes x2 from ogres(reciprocates).

"All of the base troops (ie. those derived from the recruit such as the base crossbowman and swordsman) can be created. however, only one of the further improvements can be taken (ie. bowmen OR sharpshooters)."

Hmmm. I was under the impression that the three creatures that can be recruited are all of (roughly) equal strength and therefore the player must decide out of those three instead of just the two. Because, it would seem unecessary to have the base then the a) unit, then two upgrades. Why couldn't it go from the base to i) and ii)? I believe that it would be more strategic to decide from 3 creatures instead of 2. This will result in 8 creatures per town.

"what this will mean is that say that 30 of your recruits can be trained into archers. however only maybe 7 of these can then be trained into sharpshooters or 10 into bowmen."

I do not believe this can work. For this, one would need 24 slots for the 24 creatures in each town. I think that the player should have to choose one of the three according to what is the most effective.
In the other possibility, will it mean that you must build one structure and then according to how strong the creature is, the numbers become lower. So imagine I begin with 60 base units, I can either build the Archer dwelling for 30 archers, the Bowman dwelling for 10 bowmen, or the Sharpshooter dwelling for 7 Sharpshooters. I could either have 53 or 30 left over. Also, I would imagine that the left over base units can be used for other dwellings upgrades. My question is-will there be a dwelling for base units? (I should imagine so, but I would rather have your confirmation)

"Although all 4 creature class dwellings are buildable, the allocated number of recruits meant that not all of the upgrade slots will be usable. so you can either spread your recruits thin over all 4 classes, or focus on just two or so. i believe most will take this approach."

All 4? Wasn't it all 8? I'm not sure what you are referring to with 4. Anyway, if you say most will take the concentrated amounts of creatures, I think that it will depend on how many enemies you face. For instance, if it is a 1 vs. 1 or 1 vs. 2, you can concentrate the army since their is not so much diversity. But if it is an 8 player match, then you will have to spread you recruits to all of the 8 creature dwellings.

"Ok, here's something different that may add a bit more to gameplay. what do you think of a two leveled battlefield?"

I'm not sure. But as far as I know, NWC are moving away from two levels and reverting to Heroes II style gameplay. My own reason for being against 2 levels in a battlefield is as follows:
I believe that flying units get enough distinction as it is. They are able to fly over walls and over other units (like knights in chess). They are the most unique type of unit in the battlefield. I think it would detract too much from the other units if the flying units have their own 'special' combat in the air. The archers will barely reach them, while the walkers won't be able to at all. You might find yourself in trouble if you don't have any flying units.

As for your choice of units: I'm not sure about Hippogriffs (I know that Hippo in Greek is Horse) but I think a more mythic creature can be pondered up. Apart from that, I very much like the usage of church folk as well as the rebellion of monks and Zealots and such, it adds a bit of flair to the religious side of the town and its units. There is a diverse range of specialties also.
I am eagerly waiting for the arrival of the Angels. I hope this post doesn't slow you down too much in your endeavours.

Keep up the great work, God_Boy!
____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

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EvilLoynis
EvilLoynis


Famous Hero
The Dark Shadow
posted January 25, 2003 01:11 PM

Now I Know Why I Am Not Designing These Games!

    I have to say this before we all get carried away by all this.  Have  either of you thought about how hard it will be too give equal series of upgrades too all alignments?

    The humans would have to be the easiest of these alignments too create I would think.  Just think how difficult it would be to do this for all the creatures in the Preserve or Nature alignment.  Necropolis would probally be pretty okay though regarding upgrades.  I am also wondering what we can do with those Black Dragons other than give them back all there upgrades from Heroes2.  Green Dragon too Red, Red too Black.

    Also if we are going to have all these creatures I think we need to see a secondary skill for it.  Kind of like the Tactics skill.  Or have it correspond with the level of your hero.  But there might be some arguments about that, because if your main hero gets killed and you still have alot of troops at home with a new hero you might not be able too use them all.

    Also one thing I would like too see is a Customizable hero too start with, or just being able too choose them again.
____________

"I am both selfish and instictive.  I value nature and the world around me as means to an end as well as an end in itself; at best I ... too long to display...

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god_boy
god_boy


Known Hero
posted January 27, 2003 07:05 AM

Quote:

a)Spearman: (I'm not confident that 'spearman' is a better name' Spearmen throw their javelins (their only propulsion is by hand, therefore, they are short ranged) and hit other targets. Quicker unit than the pikeman, but not overly fast. No melee penalty. Their javelins deal x2 damage to centaurs (reciprocates).
b)Macemen: Slower units that damage opponents with an elongated mace. This mace is able to stun the opponent. While the attack and damage is high, the defence and speed are low. Macemen also have above average HP because of their strength. Takes x2 from ogres(reciprocates).



Your suggestions are certainly better than mine. However, the thing that concerns me is why spearmen have a distict opposition agianst centaurs and macemen against ogres. Maybe if these were not made so distinct, like spearmen against all humanoid archery units, and macemen against all large humanoids, then there would be more strategic value for this pikeman class. This would definately give each of the classes a distinct strength and weakness, which promotes discipline in the tactics of a human town.

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Hmmm. I was under the impression that the three creatures that can be recruited are all of (roughly) equal strength and therefore the player must decide out of those three instead of just the two. Because, it would seem unecessary to have the base then the a) unit, then two upgrades. Why couldn't it go from the base to i) and ii)? I believe that it would be more strategic to decide from 3 creatures instead of 2. This will result in 8 creatures per town.



Yeah, I was trying to address the redundancy of the base units found in heroes 3. After all, who would want a swordsman when they could have a crusader. That pretty much puts out half of the a hundred and something creatures by the time all the upgraded structures are built. Therefore, I tried to somehow restrict the number of upgraded units that can be bought, so that there is a feel of an elite group. If the upgrade limit does not seem feasible, then the upgrade can perhaps be made restrictively expensive. Either way, I would like to see a main army of the base unit (lets use the example of the crossbowman) and then a smaller unit of sharpshooters. There is enough distinction between the base and the upgraded units to allow a decision between which one to have in an army. The crossbowmen would be numerous and cheap, which means that they will be well suited to dealing with infantry, while the sharpshooters, because they are a smaller group, will do less damage, but the instant kill ability, would make them ideal for taking out high level creatures. By doing this, there are two decisions that must be made: to choose either the archer or the sharpshooter, and deciding how much should be dedicated to your sharpshooter devision. obviously it wouldn't be realistic to have all your crossbowmen upgraded to sharpshooters due to the cost restriction (sharpshooters should be quite a bit more expensive to train than crossbowmen). This would make them very tempting to masses of low level enemies, to which the specialty has no real effect.

Just to clarify. Say we start off with 60 recruits per week. These recruits cannot engage in combat. Then, up to 40 of them can be upgraded into spearmen. 30 of them can be upgraded into swordsmen (as swordsmen need more training than spearmen but they are able to take on a more diverse range of enemy units). 30 can be upgraded into crossbowmen. And 15 can be upgraded into cavaliers. Of course, if you don't want any spearmen or cavalry, you don't even have to build their relative structures. Obviously, since there are only 60 recruits, not all of the upgrade spaces can be used if all the structures are built, so allocation of how many recruits will go into each class will be a major decision. Then if we just take the example of the crossbowmen (I have a certain fondness of ranged units), say if all of the crossbowmen spaces are taken and you have 30 crossbowmen, then you can further upgrade 10 of these into archers. This comes to having 20 crossbowmen and 10 archers. Therefore your larger army will still be crossbowmen. These will be expendible as they are cheap and plentiful. If all your crossbowmen are killed, you can get another thirty next week. Your archers, however, are not. They are expensive to train. Each archer/bowmen does twice the damage of yoru crossbowmen as they can shoot twice a round. However, they are very vulnerable as they they still have the same number of hitpoints and there are less of them. Therefore, you might not even want to build any bowmen if your enemy has many fast melee troops which can make short work of ranged units because its a waste of gold. On the other hand, if you just want the ten archers, then you can upgrade just 10 recruits into crossbowmen then upgrade these into archers. So, to sum it up, the upgrade, although more powerful, is not necessarily better than the base unit. This is where decisions must be made.

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I do not believe this can work. For this, one would need 24 slots for the 24 creatures in each town. I think that the player should have to choose one of the three according to what is the most effective.



For the first level creatures of the haven town: There are 3x4=12 creatures but only 8 of them will be buildable. You can have the base unit and one of its upgrades. So it is effectively choosing two of the three units. However, I don't believe that all 8 of these units will be built as your 60 recruits will then be spread pretty thin.

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In the other possibility, will it mean that you must build one structure and then according to how strong the creature is, the numbers become lower. So imagine I begin with 60 base units, I can either build the Archer dwelling for 30 archers, the Bowman dwelling for 10 bowmen, or the Sharpshooter dwelling for 7 Sharpshooters. I could either have 53 or 30 left over. Also, I would imagine that the left over base units can be used for other dwellings upgrades. My question is-will there be a dwelling for base units? (I should imagine so, but I would rather have your confirmation)



I would imagine that there was a dwelling for base units too. Its a sound idea. This way, if you don't want say spearmen in your army, you don't even have to build the spearman dwelling, as I mentioned above.

Ok, we'll use the example of 60 base creatues. then if you upgrade the 30 of them to crossbowmen (that's the limit). You would have 30 recruits left over to train into cavalry, spearmen or swordsmen (that is, if you have built those relative dwellings) With you 30 crossbowmen, you have three choices:
1. Leave them all as crossbowmen. You have a ranged unit and don't have to spend quite a bit of extra money to get something fancier.
2. Build the Archer dwelling(An extention of the crossbowmen dwelling like h3 upgrades). Then you train up to 10 of your crossbowmen into archers, giving you 20 crossobowmen AND 10 archers. The 10 archers will mean that your 30 ranged units do 33% more damage than the original 30 crossbowmen as archers do double damage. However they are expensive.
3. Build the Sharpshooter dwelling instead of the archer dwelling. Train up to 7 Sharpshooters to leave you 23 crossbowmen and 7 sharpshooters.

Alternately, if you don't want crossbomen, you still have to construct the crossbowmen dwelling and one of the two further upgrades but just train enough recruits into crossbowmen so that all of these can then be trained into the further upgrade.

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All 4? Wasn't it all 8? I'm not sure what you are referring to with 4. Anyway, if you say most will take the concentrated amounts of creatures, I think that it will depend on how many enemies you face. For instance, if it is a 1 vs. 1 or 1 vs. 2, you can concentrate the army since their is not so much diversity. But if it is an 8 player match, then you will have to spread you recruits to all of the 8 creature dwellings.



There are 4 creature classes and each of these has two extra upgrade, though only one can be chose, so yes, there are 8 creatues in total. To the second part, I agree, it would depend on the type and size of the map, and the enemy towns to depend which if not all of the base creature classes to build.

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I'm not sure. But as far as I know, NWC are moving away from two levels and reverting to Heroes II style gameplay. My own reason for being against 2 levels in a battlefield is as follows:
I believe that flying units get enough distinction as it is. They are able to fly over walls and over other units (like knights in chess). They are the most unique type of unit in the battlefield. I think it would detract too much from the other units if the flying units have their own 'special' combat in the air. The archers will barely reach them, while the walkers won't be able to at all. You might find yourself in trouble if you don't have any flying units.



What I was thinking was, airborne units will still have to come down to the ground to attack, making them vulnerable to melee attacks for ground units then. Also, perhaps creatures with the flying ability do full damage in the air(to other airborne units) but only 75% damage on the ground (as they are not suited to fighting on their feet, so to speak). The existance of airborne units also give a whole possibility of such creatures such as dragonhunters (like in the movie dragonheart), which are mercenaries which specialise in bringing down large airborne units. Once these are forced on the ground, they are very vulnerable then. This would force many airborne units to pick on isolated stacks and such, and would add a new dimension to battles, literally. There would be arial combat and ground combat in a large battle. Anyway, these are just my dreams.

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As for your choice of units: I'm not sure about Hippogriffs (I know that Hippo in Greek is Horse) but I think a more mythic creature can be pondered up.



Rest at ease, hippogriffs are real myth units. Griffins and horses were supposed to be mortal enemies. The Hippogriff symbolizes an impossible thing.  There is an old expression  "Jungentur jam grypes equis" which means  "To cross griffons with horses", indicating an impossible scenario. They were also known as Simoorgh or Simurgh or Senmurv in ancient persia. I liked the idea of a hippogriff because it was part horse, making them ideal for a sort of cavalry.

And now, for the much awaited angels:

Level 4:
Angels: Here is just a speculative idea for angels. How about we don't make them all powerful. The reason behind this is that i think heroes 2 was attractive because of the large differences in the different towns. I want the haven town to focus on midrange troops. base angels themselves can engage in battles. Angels have exceptionally high attack, damage and speed, but relatively low hitpoints and defence. These are like h3 wolfriders and should be used accordingly. I am thinking angel growth around 3 or 4 per week because they are killed relatively easily. The presense of angels increase morale. All angels do 150% damage to all devils. Angels can be upgraded into:
a. Archangels: Guardians of people and all things physical. These units carry out the will of God for the sake of man. Archangels have a slight defence and hitpoint boost over angels, and increase the morale of human troops further. Furthermore, archangels can bless all units once per battle. Archangels can be upgraded into either:
i. Virtues: Work miracles on earth. They are bestowers of grace and valor. These have the ability to resurrect once per battle, as well as cast a variety of other beneficial spells, such as haste and cure. The amount of mana and strength of the spells depend on their number. Virtues are protectors, so has an attack decrease but a defence and hitpoint increase over archangels.
ii. Powers: Stop the efforts of demons to overthrow the world. Powers do 150% damage to all evil aligned creatures and lowers the morale of all demonic creatures on the battlefield.
b. Dominions: Through them is manifested the Majesty of God. They hold an orb or sceptre as an emblem of authority. Dominions do not concern themselves with the matters of man and strive to protect the interest of God.  Instead of giving strength boosts to other allied creatures, dominions cast spells on themselves to boost their statistics and give themselves a small selection of special abilities. This makes dominions one of the most versatile units in the game as they can change themselves to suit the situation. However, they only have enough mana to cast a very limited number of spells. Dominions are female in appearance and can be upgraded into:
i. Cherubim: The guardians of the fixed stars, keepers of celestial records, bestowers of knowledge. Satan was a cherubim before his fall. Cherubims have a much wider selection of more powerful self-improvement spells and more mana. One on one, cherubim are able to take on most enemy units. their only weakness is their inability to cope with multiple differnt units as when they engage in battle, they won't have the time to cast further beneficial spells on themselves to counter a different unit.
ii. Seraphim: The highest order, the six-winged ones, surround the throne of God. They are angels of love, light, and fire. Accordingly, seraphim can cast a range of fire spells to cull the unfaithful and can also blind an enemy stack once per battle for three rounds with their brilliance. Seraphim are also able to cast a 'song of peace' type spell which inhibits the ability to attack or cast offensive spells for two rounds. Seraphim are more equiped to deal with multiple stacks of different units than cherubim.

I think that for each different town, the types of units that they have should reflect the town's nature. So for this human town, the focus is discipline in the battlefield. Note how each unit has a strength and a weakness. This means that in combat, how the troops are deployed will have a major impact on the outcome of the battle. The troops of this town will have to work with each other closely to attack using their respective strengths and have their weaknesses guarded by other allied units. A small haven army has the potential to tackle a much larger enemy army if used effectively, but they can also lose to a much smaller army if their weaknesses become exploited.

Anyway, keep the posts coming. I appreciate the feedback.

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ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted January 28, 2003 06:24 AM

More elaborating


"However, the thing that concerns me is why spearmen have a distict opposition agianst centaurs and macemen against ogres."

Both the Spearmen and Macemen have distinct opposition is because the opposing creature is quite similar, and therefore, there is a need for competition in the eyes of the opposing creature. Sometimes, I find that Having a bonus against all creatures of a certain type is too beneficial to the creature, and besides that, doesn't exactly give you an idea as to why there is a bonus, since (I hope) all creatures are unique. This would then mean that they all have specialties and can't really be classified into a collective group such as humanoid archery units.

"Either way, I would like to see a main army of the base unit (lets use the example of the crossbowman) and then a smaller unit of sharpshooters."

OK. So the way I now see it as is as follows:  60 base units are bough. Then a crossbowman dwelling is built. 30 of these base creatures are converted to crossbowmen, which cannot in turn be upgraded again. The remaining 30 base units can be used to be upgraded or trained with the use of another dwelling, like the jousting arena. Or, the remaining 30 can be used to be trained into 7 sharpshooters. Is this correct? The question I have here is; is it possible for the recruits to be upgraded into two creatures of the same branch? If so, then it means that there will be a larger number of overall creatures. Based on what I have seen you write earlier, I would say that only two of the creatures from the branch can be chosen.

"So, to sum it up, the upgrade, although more powerful, is not necessarily better than the base unit."

Thankyou for that example, it is quite clear to me now. If one decides to invest in buying the crossbowman dwelling, the growth rate of the crossbowmen will be 30 per week, and therefore will have a supply of crossbowmen. But the two upgrades of the crossbowmen will not have a growth rate if you decide to upgrade the original recruits to the archer or sharpshooter. Therefore, the remaining recruits may be used to invest in other dwellings, but only 2 from each class may be built.

"However, I don't believe that all 8 of these units will be built as your 60 recruits will then be spread pretty thin."

Yes, but Imagine there will be a dwelling of recruits that produces a certain number everyweek to supply the dwellings that you have built with more, since you may need to upgrade the base unit of a particular branch, or even begin a new one. It could be feasible that the 8 units are built if you decide to have a diverse army that can cator for all the different town types.

"Alternately, if you don't want crossbomen, you still have to construct the crossbowmen dwelling and one of the two further upgrades but just train enough recruits into crossbowmen so that all of these can then be trained into the further upgrade."

Ok, so this then means that crossbowmen can be upgraded, but only to one of the two that are there. So, if you choose archers, they can't be converted to sharpshooters, and I would think if you build the archer dwelling, you cannot then build the sharpshooter dwelling also.
Also, if you don't want the crossbowmen at all, one will just buy 10 recruits and upgrade them to crossbowmen (instead of 30) and then all of the crossbowmen will become archers, instead of just some.

"What I was thinking was, airborne units will still have to come down to the ground to attack, making them vulnerable to melee attacks for ground units then."

OK. I fully understand what you are saying, and I think that your idea is good and will make the flyers not so much 'all-powerful' and actually take away from their powers on the ground. This will give flyers the incentive to have their combats up in the air, where flyers do full damage. As you say, only dragonhunters are able to reach the flyers in the air, and bring them down onto the ground. The only thing I see wrong with this idea is that if the flyers stay in the air the whole time and have flyer vs. flyer battles, it could detract from the activeness of other units on the ground.
Also, NWC stated that they would not be having 2 levels and reverted to the old 1 level Heroes I and II methods.

"The Hippogriff symbolizes an impossible thing. There is an old expression "Jungentur jam grypes equis" which means "To cross griffons with horses", indicating an impossible scenario."

Sure. Yes, I actually study Latin at school, and therefore know some of these old sayings. But, one thing with the name, if the saying is Latin and the name is Greek, how did the two connect? It could also be an Equusgriff.
It is good to know that the Hippogriff is a real mythological creature, because I have seen people write 'Hippogriff' previously, and it sounds like a slightly untrue name, but I am glad that the creature is genuine, and has meaning.

"How about we don't make them all powerful. The reason behind this is that i think heroes 2 was attractive because of the large differences in the different towns. I want the haven town to focus on midrange troops. base angels themselves can engage in battles. Angels have exceptionally high attack, damage and speed, but relatively low hitpoints and defence. These are like h3 wolfriders and should be used accordingly. I am thinking angel growth around 3 or 4 per week because they are killed relatively easily. The presense of angels increase morale. All angels do 150% damage to all devils."

Yes, I also liked Hereos 2 because the towns were so different, and there was no set pattern like Heroes 3 or 4, which made the game rather random and also different and fun to play. The game was at times spontaneous. 3 or 4 Angels per week sounds fair, I think it would be better to have 4, and therefore resulting in an even number. Although, it really depends on how the upgrade system coexists with the rest of the game.
You are using the old method, too. All angels do 150% damage to all devils. To me, that makes more sense than Angels do 150% damage to all demonic units. This is because devils are the arch nemesis and it would be more logical to deal the extra damage to just the devil and not the whole army. I also take it that this 150% damage reciprocates.

Your creature choices, once again, are imbeccible, God_Boy. I enjoyed reading their detailed descriptions. Ones like, The keepeer of celestial records, the guardians of the fixed stars, surround the throne of god, and others. All Angel types seem to have a great mythological story behind them, and what's more, you have made the unique, which in my eyes, is one of the most important aspects in creature.

"I think that for each different town, the types of units that they have should reflect the town's nature."

I believe that this idea is very logical, God_Boy, by doing this, a Chaos town could really be chaotic, not only in its creatures, but in the way it manages the castle, the battles, and the overall kingdom. Order could also be very order, and nature, very natural. They could all blend in with the town's nature to create a more believable scene.

Your ideas throughout this thread have been very laudable, God_Boy, I urge you to keep up the excellent work. I know I'll be here to reply to them, so don't feel as though nobody's reading.

Continue your excellent endeavours. (I might also begin work on a Chaos town later on-if that is OK with you)
____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

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god_boy
god_boy


Known Hero
posted January 29, 2003 02:23 AM

Quote:

Both the Spearmen and Macemen have distinct opposition is because the opposing creature is quite similar, and therefore, there is a need for competition in the eyes of the opposing creature. Sometimes, I find that Having a bonus against all creatures of a certain type is too beneficial to the creature, and besides that, doesn't exactly give you an idea as to why there is a bonus, since (I hope) all creatures are unique. This would then mean that they all have specialties and can't really be classified into a collective group such as humanoid archery units.



By giving the spearman class troops a distinct advantage against a certain collective group (large monsters and cavalry) but balancing this with a distinct weakness against another collective group (archery units and swordsmen), a player would be forced to think very carefully about how he deploys his troops so that his spearmen for example would attack the large monster but stay out of range of heavy archery fire.

The spearmen would have a bonus against cavalry because horses aren't willing to charge onto a thicket of spears. They also have a bonus against large monsters because the length of their spears (up to 18 feet) allows them to poke the large monsters in the eyes and chest when swordsmen class creatures would be hacking at their legs. However, spearmen are vulnerable to ranged units because they don't have shields (as they need to hold their spears with both hands) and they are vulnerable to swordsmen as as soon as the swordsmen close behind the spearpoints, spearmen have nothing to block the sword blows with.

Your ideas are still good, but maybe they can be more effectively applied to less coordinated towns. The thing that keeps on nagging at me is that if the spearmen have a strength against only one unit, then perhaps they will be too similar to swordsmen, making one of them redundant.

An interesting point you brought up with not being able to broadly classify different units into collective groups because they are all unique. Perhaps being able to classify them this way would mean that to some enemies, two different unit types would react similarly, but to other enemies, they would react completely different. I'll give an example. We'll use the example sharpshooters and spearmen. They would both be classified as humanoid units. If they were fighting say a titan, both would do bonus damage to it (the spearmen would have their extra damage against large monsters bonus, and the sharpshooters would have their intant kill bonus) however, if they were fighting against a relatively small yet powerful creature, say an angel, then the spearmen would be decimated but the sharpshooters would still have the advantage. By both being human units however, maybe they would both then also recieve penalties (eg. low morale) against the undead. So I believe that these units still be unique if they are classified properly and logically.

Quote:

OK. So the way I now see it as is as follows:  60 base units are bough. Then a crossbowman dwelling is built. 30 of these base creatures are converted to crossbowmen, which cannot in turn be upgraded again. The remaining 30 base units can be used to be upgraded or trained with the use of another dwelling, like the jousting arena. Or, the remaining 30 can be used to be trained into 7 sharpshooters. Is this correct? The question I have here is; is it possible for the recruits to be upgraded into two creatures of the same branch? If so, then it means that there will be a larger number of overall creatures. Based on what I have seen you write earlier, I would say that only two of the creatures from the branch can be chosen.



I don't think that the sharpshooters should be able to be upgraded straight from the recruit, just like you can't get a crusader without losing a swordsmen in H3. So what I propose is that part of your 30 crossbowmen can either then b
e upgraded into bowmen OR sharpshooters. This means that if you want 7 sharpshooters, you have to sacrifice 7 crossbowmen so that you would only have 23 crossgbowmen left over that week when you train the 7 sharpshooters. The remaining 30 base units can be used in the other class dwellings, such as cavalry, swordsmen or spearmen.

Quote:

Thankyou for that example, it is quite clear to me now. If one decides to invest in buying the crossbowman dwelling, the growth rate of the crossbowmen will be 30 per week, and therefore will have a supply of crossbowmen. But the two upgrades of the crossbowmen will not have a growth rate if you decide to upgrade the original recruits to the archer or sharpshooter. Therefore, the remaining recruits may be used to invest in other dwellings, but only 2 from each class may be built.



Bingo! That's right on the money.

Quote:

Yes, but Imagine there will be a dwelling of recruits that produces a certain number everyweek to supply the dwellings that you have built with more, since you may need to upgrade the base unit of a particular branch, or even begin a new one. It could be feasible that the 8 units are built if you decide to have a diverse army that can cator for all the different town types.



I've thought about what you said, and I do believe your right. In a large map with many different types of enemies, you would want to spread your forces thin to cater for them all, as you said.

Quote:

Ok, so this then means that crossbowmen can be upgraded, but only to one of the two that are there. So, if you choose archers, they can't be converted to sharpshooters, and I would think if you build the archer dwelling, you cannot then build the sharpshooter dwelling also.
Also, if you don't want the crossbowmen at all, one will just buy 10 recruits and upgrade them to crossbowmen (instead of 30) and then all of the crossbowmen will become archers, instead of just some.



Right you are again.

Quote:

OK. I fully understand what you are saying, and I think that your idea is good and will make the flyers not so much 'all-powerful' and actually take away from their powers on the ground. This will give flyers the incentive to have their combats up in the air, where flyers do full damage. As you say, only dragonhunters are able to reach the flyers in the air, and bring them down onto the ground. The only thing I see wrong with this idea is that if the flyers stay in the air the whole time and have flyer vs. flyer battles, it could detract from the activeness of other units on the ground.
Also, NWC stated that they would not be having 2 levels and reverted to the old 1 level Heroes I and II methods.



That's a shame. But I still think that more should be done with the terrain. By reverting back to the H1 and H2 battlefield, the developers are just trying to attract the old players back instead of continuing to break new ground and find an even better system.

This is what I want for a battlefield:
http://www.cdmag.com/articles/025/169/shot.jpg
The above link is to a shot of the battlefield from the game Shogun: Total war. Notice how there are trees and contour in the map. Perhaps troops can move slower uphill and faster downhill. This would make tactics a much more important factor in where to place your troops at the beginning of a battle, as having the high ground is a distinct advantage. I also think that the attacking army should always have the ability to premove their troops in the same area range as having basic tactics. This is only logical as the attacking army is one one picking the when and the where for the battle and they should be able to draw the defenders into an ambush. The trees could also be used to hide troop numbers so that instead of a clear number on the battlefield, troops in the area with the trees fighting are only shown as few, lots, hoard et cetera. Obviously, elves would then also have an advantage fighting in forested areas. Anyway, that's just a thought.

Quote:

Sure. Yes, I actually study Latin at school, and therefore know some of these old sayings. But, one thing with the name, if the saying is Latin and the name is Greek, how did the two connect? It could also be an Equusgriff.
It is good to know that the Hippogriff is a real mythological creature, because I have seen people write 'Hippogriff' previously, and it sounds like a slightly untrue name, but I am glad that the creature is genuine, and has meaning.



You know, you're absolutely right. It's a Greek creature with an old saying in latin. I've never thought of that. I think that maybe its because like the Greek gods, it was also integrated into Roman mythology. The whole Roman religion was copied from the Greeks, so its only fit that they've got the old Roman creatures as well.

Quote:

You are using the old method, too. All angels do 150% damage to all devils. To me, that makes more sense than Angels do 150% damage to all demonic units. This is because devils are the arch nemesis and it would be more logical to deal the extra damage to just the devil and not the whole army. I also take it that this 150% damage reciprocates.

Your creature choices, once again, are imbeccible, God_Boy. I enjoyed reading their detailed descriptions. Ones like, The keepeer of celestial records, the guardians of the fixed stars, surround the throne of god, and others. All Angel types seem to have a great mythological story behind them, and what's more, you have made the unique, which in my eyes, is one of the most important aspects in creature.

Your ideas throughout this thread have been very laudable, God_Boy, I urge you to keep up the excellent work. I know I'll be here to reply to them, so don't feel as though nobody's reading.

Continue your excellent endeavours. (I might also begin work on a Chaos town later on-if that is OK with you)


I really appreciate your continuing feedback. Its good to know that somebody takes my ideas at least partially seriously. Angels doing bonus damage to all demonics sound logical. I had to do some background research on some of the creatures though.

By all means, work on a chaos town and post it. I would hate to have to do all the towns by myself.

Lastly I have to say that I'm probably not going to be able to post as often as I do in this thread because the school holidays are over. Its early mornings for me tomorrow.

Cheers

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ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted January 31, 2003 07:19 AM

Some deliberations


"By giving the spearman class troops a distinct advantage against a certain collective group (large monsters and cavalry) but balancing this with a distinct weakness against another collective group (archery units and swordsmen), a player would be forced to think very carefully about how he deploys his troops"

I now see your motives behind making them weaker against a collective group. By itself, your reason seems justifiable, but placed into context with the creature that you're handing it to, it doesn't seem logical in some ways. Why wouldn't spearmen be ineffective against large troops, instead of taking the moster out with a flurry of arrows, the monster could repel them because of its size, and when the moster reaches them, it would destroy them at short range, giving it a disadvantage, if anything. Having said this, the strategic side of your argument is very intriguing. It would indeed force the player to possibly even decide which troops to have in the battle, and at very least, how to deploy them, considering the positioning of the opponents' creatures, as you said.
The prospect of this is quite interesting. Only if it could be integrated into the game a different way....

"However, spearmen are vulnerable to ranged units because they don't have shields (as they need to hold their spears with both hands)"

Yes, I see your point behind this. Although, if this were to take effect, then, every character without a shield(all non-haven creatures, basically) would have lower defense or take more damage from ranged attacks. I think the creators would have addressed the fact that a creature has less armour or no shield with the creatures defense compared to attack. A spearman would have lower defense than attack for the reasons you listed. I don't see a real need for them to have a weakness against all archers, maybe a select few, though.

"The thing that keeps on nagging at me is that if the spearmen have a strength against only one unit, then perhaps they will be too similar to swordsmen, making one of them redundant."

It can be addressed. Spearmen throw spears and have long range melee attack, but it is weakened since their pikes are lighter and smaller so that they can be thrown instead of utilised in melee attacks. I think the swordsmen have not enough in common with the spearmen to make them redundant.

"Perhaps being able to classify them this way would mean that to some enemies, two different unit types would react similarly, but to other enemies, they would react completely different."

Yes, I see what you are saying here. But that 'unsimilarity' would only be recongised by some creatures and not others, which could make it slightly imbalanced, if the creatures are viewed as being different by Titans and not by Angels. It may have the capability to work strategically, but I will reserve my overall judgement, since I cannot comment on how it would work in the instance of a battle. (I'm hoping your idea is the one for Heroes V).

"So I believe that these units still be unique if they are classified properly and logically."

Yes. I've though about it a bit more, and I think it can work if the collective groups aren't of all ranged attackers, but some unique ones that would have an obvious advantage over the creature. Besides, I think that having a weakness against all ranged attacks would be too much of a downfall to make the creature a worthy addition to ones army.

"part of your 30 crossbowmen can either then b
e upgraded into bowmen OR sharpshooters. This means that if you want 7 sharpshooters, you have to sacrifice 7 crossbowmen so that you would only have 23 crossgbowmen left over that week when you train the 7 sharpshooters. The remaining 30 base units can be used in the other class dwellings, such as cavalry, swordsmen or spearmen."

I see. So that means there is a decision, and you cannot upgrade crossbowmen into both of them. That is what I had intially thought, but I needed a bit of verification. The 30 crossbowmen are expendable, so if you decide to upgrade them, some of them will be lost in the upgrade, so the constant number of 30 is retained. Also, with the weekly growth of crossbowmen you recieve, that can either be kept as crossbowmen or upgrade again every week. But regardless of how many you upgrade, the limit is 7 for sharpshooters, which means that at least, every week you'll have 23 crossbowmen.

"That's a shame. But I still think that more should be done with the terrain. By reverting back to the H1 and H2 battlefield, the developers are just trying to attract the old players back instead of continuing to break new ground and find an even better system."

I'm not sure if they're reverting to the old battlefield, but the elements of Heroes V will be more based on Heroes II and III rather than on Heroes IV for some reason. Christian didn't make it clear. He also didn't make any specific notes about battlefields, so there is some hope for a Heroes IV-like battlefield to be retained.
Yes, I think the battlefield could be enhanced, but I'd like the layout to be classic Heroes style, not the picture you mentioned, sorry. I agree that the undulations in the terrain can be changed to be made more strategic. Before Heroes IV was released, I had imagined that atop a mountain in the adventure map, the hero's radius would be enhanced since he was on a hill. Not to be. I hope this can be implemented in the Heroes V battlefield, so a ranged attacker gets more of a bonus on a hill, and a negation in a ditch.

I also agree with you about troops moving further downhill, and moving not as far up hill. As for your tactics idea. I actually suggested a new tactics skill that would allow you to accomplish that and more. It is in my Heroes V: The Future is Upon Us thread, in my initial post. I think you would agree with the main part of it.
I agree also with you on bonuses for elves in foorested areas, and hydras in a swamp, etc. Iy would add some much needed diversity to the battlefields natural obstacles and terrain.

"By all means, work on a chaos town and post it. I would hate to have to do all the towns by myself.

Lastly I have to say that I'm probably not going to be able to post as often as I do in this thread because the school holidays are over. Its early mornings for me tomorrow."

Yes, I shall begin working on the Chaos town next weekend, maybe this weekend, but I'm busy then, I'll see what I can do. Alas, the same fate awaits me. Although my school starts on Tuesday the 4th. I will also not be posting probably until the weekend or friday. I have a feeling Yr. 9 will be quite demanding....
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"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted March 09, 2003 12:12 PM

The idea has some merits, but there seems to be too many variants of each race tending. Unfortunately, the variants have different equipment and should therefore have different graphics. This will result in a lot of creatures per town, and given the fairly short developement time of h5 I'd say we might perhaps get 3-4 towns which is too few.

There are a few things in the proposal which deseves some more consideration and discussion though.

The first one is to base the creature output of a town based on the towns population and which creature dwellings / training centres it has built. You don't necessarily need to have as many creature variants as suggested above to make this work.

Some races are broad such as Humans, Elves, Dwarves and so on, and can by themselves make up a number of diverse creatures say about 3-4 per town. (Any more and there will be too many human-like creatures in the game. All base races doesn't have to be humans. The Undead town should have all Undead creatures, there could be one town with Demons and so on.)

The rest of the town could be built on alliances with other creatures. The alliance simply means that the town has a population of a second race or creature. In H4 you could 'choose' alliances by building creature generators, but in this case the difference would be that a creature generator might give rise to more than one creature being producable. Do notice that most alliances will result in one new single creature being producable.

If you build a Pegasus dwelling in an Elf town, you might get normal (non-mounted) pegasi out from it. But you would also get some elves trained to ride some of them. The dwelling itself could be seen as an "alliance" with a faction. It houses a population of Pegauses some of which can be trained for war. Any special training, need not be an upgrade to the dwelling it could be an upgrade to the Castle (or other specialized builing in the town, say a barracks or war hall), and doesn't necessarily need to show on the city screen.

(When it comes to mounts, each town could have a "stables" so each could get a 'cavalry' unit by building the stables. In fact some towns could have more than one Stables. nature has Pegasi, Unicorns and Zebras as possible mounts.)

When it comes to the number of factions allowed then they should take care to not repeat the H4 mistake with spoiling town mood. So some factions will be permissible in only one town, but others could be a bit broader and be allowed in say all "Good aligned" towns. In other worlds, if the same faction is allowed in different towns, then it should have separarte graphics representing it in each town.

The number of permissible factions in a town should depend on Castle level and Hall level, and the size of the population should depend on Hall level. (And perhaps the Nobility skill can affect this also, in addition to the growth effect it has.)

When it comes to the Magic system and the Magic pentagram... I really hope they will ditch the pentagram, and that towns will be rebuilt from scratch again. They've done so from H2 to H3, H3 to H4 so why not from H4 to H5. You can assume that the town will change a lot to H5, so don't let the H4 way of dividing towns govern the proposals you make.

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ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted March 15, 2003 09:54 AM

It is good to see someone else get a hand in this discussion......

This is an excellent idea from God_Boy, in my opinion. Unfortunately, there aren't enough people to give their opinion. I say it is a great theory, while Djive says it has its merits. One cannot make a judgement on two differing opinions, so it would be much appreciated if some more members could voice their opinions on this issue. Does nobody want to talk about the more detailed aspects of Heroes? (No offence to the people who continually post town lists with upgrades, obviously they havent seen previous threads.)

"This will result in a lot of creatures per town, and given the fairly short developement time of h5 I'd say we might perhaps get 3-4 towns which is too few."

Well, the point of the increasing amount of upgrades, according to God_Boy, was to create some diversity in the towns, and consequently, adding more creatures to each town, but still making them unique. I think Heroes V will get the needed development time, since they have a small group there at New World focusing on the issue, they may get the work done more quickly, because of the lack of conflicting opinions. 3-4 towns is not enough, I agree, but the point of having more upgrades was not to lower the number of towns in the game. It was to diversify the game, without reducing town numbers, and bringing more depth to the game. Some people thought that 5 creatures per town was not enough, and they wanted to have more control over their choices. This method allows the freedom of choice.

"All base races doesn't have to be humans.The Undead town should have all Undead creatures, there could be one town with Demons and so on.)"

Yes, the human based town is just what we were toying around with in previous posts. Of course other towns are going to have a different class of creatures as their base. Chaos can have swamp-volcanic creatures as their base, while Nature can have the forest dwellers, such as Dendroids, Elves, etc. It is all relative to what the town is moulded upon. But there also needs to be some diversity in the towns. For example, not every town can rely on one race.

"but in this case the difference would be that a creature generator might give rise to more than one creature being producable."

Yes, I see your point here. But I still believe there needs to be a few more creatures for this to work. There is not much point in having a creature generator which increases growth, but there are only 4 creatures in the town. I believe it will work best with more creatures belonging to the town. That is why in Heroes IV, creature generators gave extra creatures, since there weren't that many available to begin with.

"The dwelling itself could be seen as an "alliance" with a faction. It houses a population of Pegauses some of which can be trained for war."

Are you suggesting that when you 'merge' two structures, a (i.e) mounted pegasus would be recruited, but you are able to split the two? So if there is an elf riding it, you can split it and the pegasus will be a normal, non mounted one, and you would have another elf?

"and doesn't necessarily need to show on the city screen."

It would give the town display a bit more character, though, wouldn't you think? It is a little bit bland seeing the same structure without adding an upgrade for the entire time you are playing? I think that everything needs to be displayed, otherwise, one might take over the opponents town, and be none the wiser?

"When it comes to mounts, each town could have a "stables" so each could get a 'cavalry' unit by building the stables."

Hmmmm. I think I prefer the individual structure for a mounted creature, but instead, what if the stables act as an upgrade for the towns cavalry? I think that way, the towns mounted unit can be more unique, and not be so generic. I do like the idea of each town having a stable, since cavalry are such an integral part of Heroes.
As an extension of this, how about if the stables acted as a bonus to not only the individual creature, but their performance on the adventure map? It is unrealistic to have a horse's movement dependant on how fast the creature speeds are; what about itself? It could somehow be implemented that it has an effect on the adventure map movement too.

"So some factions will be permissible in only one town, but others could be a bit broader and be allowed in say all "Good aligned" towns."

Yes, I would agree here. I don't think that Orcs belonged in the Chaos town, or griffins belong in the Preserve. The Griffin has been mixed around, but it rightfully belongs in the knight (Haven) town in my opinion.
You are right, the towns creatures need to be individual, and abide by the town's theme. If there are any variations, they need to be in the same town, because having an Elf in the Preserve, and a Dark Elf in another town doesn't seem right, and a bit redundant, if you ask me.

The number of permissible factions in a town should depend on Castle level and Hall level, and the size of the population should depend on Hall level. (And perhaps the Nobility skill can affect this also, in addition to the growth effect it has.)

Yes, this would give the player some initiative to upgrade the fort, since there was really not any great need to upgrade unless you were under siege. By having the population of the town rely on the castle, it will elevate its importance to as high as it should have been in Heroes IV. I believe a castle provides more than just fortifications.
I think that there should be more than one entity influencing the population level. The breeding pens+hall would be an example. Just having the hall as the sole definer of the towns population makes it a bit too important. There need to be other structures to share the role.

"I really hope they will ditch the pentagram, and that towns will be rebuilt from scratch again."

I agree here. It gave the towns too much condinement. I like the idea of each having their own magic school, but I think that being linked to each other in such a strong way hurt the additions of further castles somewhat, and that is unacceptable for Heroes V. I think it would be beneficial to have the towns have a relation between each other, just don't make it too significant.

The Heroes III method of upgrading was too simple. The player needs to be given a choice as to which creature he wants. A cross between the Heroes III and IV upgrading system is an excellent one, as it provides decisions with structure. This is what is being conveyed by God_Boy, more or less.
____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

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Debowy
Debowy


posted March 15, 2003 10:11 AM

I have my own ideas for upgrading system as I did in the Haven and Necropolis threads. You start with a creature and you can upgrade it to two styles of his town, for example in the Haven town you can upgrade creatures to be good or evil, or in the Necropolis town you can upgrade your creature to be undead or demonic.
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shankara
shankara

Tavern Dweller
posted March 18, 2003 03:52 AM

>> forgive me for saying this but good_boy's upgrade system sounds very like the upgrade system in the disciples series where you hire and initial melee, ranged, mage or support unit and then build structures that will allow them to upgrade to a different creature.

>> example, (disciples, empire town) you can hire a squire then build either
a> stables - to upgrade it to a knight (+hp, +damage)or
b> chapel - to upgrade it to a witch hunter (+immunity to mind spells)
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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted April 03, 2003 10:00 PM
Edited By: Djive on 3 Apr 2003

Quote:
Well, the point of the increasing amount of upgrades, according to God_Boy, was to create some diversity in the towns, and consequently, adding more creatures to each town, but still making them unique.


But the creatures are too different to be based on the same animations. It's better to have two entirely different creatures, than one base plus one upgraded creatures. If upgrades can be made by a simple colour mutation or similar then there's time to make more creatures. But with the suggested system it means one less unique creature to have one more upgrade.

Quote:
For example, not every town can rely on one race.


I was suggesting one main race, with alliances to other suitable races. It's done that way in AoW2 so it's not impossible.

Quote:
There is not much point in having a creature generator which increases growth, but there are only 4 creatures in the town.


So if you say get 50% growth increase for your hydras, then you think that is a small thing? I disagree. You balance the growth percentage against how many creatures will be affected by the growth increase, and the levels of those creatures.

Quote:
Are you suggesting that when you 'merge' two structures, a (i.e) mounted pegasus would be recruited, but you are able to split the two?


You are not merging the creatures. You are just training them together. A rider is trained for a suitable mount. Of course a trained mounted rider could have been substituted for one mount and one 'walker'.

Quote:
It would give the town display a bit more character, though, wouldn't you think?


Not really. You get the option in the menu where you manage which creatures you produce/train. Your dwellings produce elves, and produce pegasi. The dwellings don't produce mounted pegasi. They are trained together. Not bred together.

Quote:
Hmmmm. I think I prefer the individual structure for a mounted creature, but instead, what if the stables act as an upgrade for the towns cavalry?


The hen or the egg. My take: you need a stables to produce mounts before you can train any cavalry. Thus, no stables => no mounts => no cavalry. If you have upgrades to the stables then that could allow upgrades to your cavalry.

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Lordskeleton
Lordskeleton


Adventuring Hero
The really REALLY bad guy
posted April 03, 2003 10:41 PM

I believe bowmen should have an alternate attack of an arrow-carpet. Covering several squares like the cyclops yet delivering less damage due to unaccuracy as well as fewer arrows per target. In close combat it would be dangerous to carpet-shoot (Braveheart: Won't we hit our own troops? Yes, but we'll hit theirs as well) and archers would be more gambling once the battle has begun. Except for say dragons and other large easy-to-hit creatures. Sure you could close in to get a clear shot... Incoming scotsman!
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ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted April 04, 2003 11:21 AM

Some final comments

It was unfortunate that God_Boy was not able to elaborate on this idea more. Since it was a very good one in my opinion, and I would have been happy to have this system in use in Heroes V. But as I know, high school is a very difficult stage and that must take priority. I will try to carry on this idea in other town ideas I may have in the future.

Shankara:

"example, (disciples, empire town) you can hire a squire then build either
a> stables - to upgrade it to a knight (+hp, +damage)or
b> chapel - to upgrade it to a witch hunter (+immunity to mind spells)"

Shankara, even though I have only ever played the Heroes Series, and not Disciples II, AOW II, or whatever, I can see by your example you have. From what information you have given me, I can conclude that God_Boy's idea is similar, but it is much more comlicated, as different decisions must be made, and it goes further than just a squire which goes to either knight or witch hunter.

Djive:

"But with the suggested system it means one less unique creature to have one more upgrade."

But you fail to remember that this system is unlike the previous Heroes upgrading systems. Just because it belongs to the same class (such as knights) it doesn't mean the upgrades are 'power knight' or something weak like that. Instead, they are trained in different areas and the upgrades are quite different from each other. Such as in the 'Angels class', there are many types of creatures, who all differ greatly from each other, and therefore, their battle appearance will also look considerably different. However, it will not look as different as no upgrades, but it should seem as different as upgrades come. Redundancy was one of the issues God_Boy was trying to eliminate, but at the same time, still have a unique and strategic upgrade system. I think so far, he has lived up to the promise.

"I was suggesting one main race, with alliances to other suitable races. It's done that way in AoW2 so it's not impossible."

OK. I see that you have elaborated now. I can see how it can work now. You are suggesting that (example) dragons are the base race for the chaos town, and they have other alliances, (i.e. Hydras wyverns basilisks, etc.) If this is so, I see no harm in that, but I think two related races per town for this upgrade system.

"So if you say get 50% growth increase for your hydras, then you think that is a small thing? I disagree."

It is a big thing. I said that there is no point having a creature generator to increase growth. I think the way that it worked in Heroes II, where every town had a structure that would increase the growth of creatures, not a creature generator. Of course I think that a growth modifier is important, just not enough so that every creature dwelling needs one.

"A rider is trained for a suitable mount. Of course a trained mounted rider could have been substituted for one mount and one 'walker'."

Ah, yes. I see what you are trying to convey now. Your idea here seems quite logical, and I have confidence that it can work in the grand scheme of things. Training two similar creatures together does reduce the rendundancy in the game overall, I believe.

"You get the option in the menu where you manage which creatures you produce/train."

If you put it that way, then instead of having it shown as apart of a war hall, why not have them upgraded together, but with the addition showing on the individual structure. I can't imagine all the creatures going to the war hall or some other place within the town just to get some extra training. Also, if it is not shown on the screen at all, how will you know you have bought it at first without checking?

"you need a stables to produce mounts before you can train any cavalry. Thus, no stables => no mounts => no cavalry."

Not necessarily. I think that they could still function together, but not as well. A horse and a peasant to begin with, then it can be upgraded to a nightmare and a knight. You can still have a horse and a peasant without having the stables. But, I can see where your coming from, it is the chicken and the egg, as you said.

Lord Skeleton:

"I believe bowmen should have an alternate attack of an arrow-carpet."

While this seems to be a good idea, I don't think the bowmen should have that useful ability. Maybe a more powerful ranged attacker like a cyclops could have it, but not a bowman. Even if it hit your own troops, it would be a bit too powerful, and probably too easy to fire without your own troops getting hit.

If there is interest, keep posting. (If God_Boy returns, which he probably will during our holidays (we're both in Australia) then this topic may gain some more life.)

Thanks for posting, anyway.
____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

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DonGio
DonGio


Promising
Famous Hero
of Clear Water Mountain Clan
posted April 04, 2003 01:04 PM

Hi, all.

For some reason, I’ve managed to miss this thread up until now. I think God Boy’s suggestion an intriguing one, and one that could very well work for HOMMV. It may be too late to change the course of events now, but I’ll give my views on this anyway.

I really like the basic idea. Having one “ordinary” unit and one specialized (elite) seems is appealing.

However, from what I understood, you’ll be able to produce 8 different units for the first level alone. And even with a decreasing number of choices for the higher levels, this will result in many more creature stacks than we’re used to in each army.

Now, I’m not saying this is necessarily a bad thing, but it will make the game more complex in every way, speaking in terms of for example more animations, more balancing issues, the challenge to make each unit truly unique and so on.

It would also presuppose a bigger battlefield than seen in previous games, but I was hoping for that anyway (I think both the Total War and AoW games’ battlefields could work for HOMMV).

Maybe the first level could do with only three initial upgrades (maybe merge the pikeman and the swordsman)?

I also agree with God Boy on the whole categorizing issue. I think units should have (dis)advantages toward different groups of creatures rather than specific ones. If properly categorized, this should not only work nicely, but extremely well, I think, as I feel God Boy’s example with the sharpshooters and spearmen proved.

I also love the way you (God Boy) try to stay as faithful as possible to the creatures’ mythological origin when designing your units.

A little side note to the one who mentioned dwarves as a creature from norse mythology: Dwarves are actually not mythological creatures! They exist in real life (gasp!)!

This posting takes up needed time, as mentioned, but I might get the chance to ponder and post more thoroughly during the Easter holidays.

And good to see fellow students of latin! I’m on my first term, so I’m not fluent yet , but still, it’s fascinating.

Dixi
DonGio

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There are 10 types of people: Those who read binary, and those who don't.

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