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| Thread: Why |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV |
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Minion
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posted July 19, 2008 06:57 PM |
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And so have I said that here for example animals already have some rights. I am not sure what you are asking here. Why isn't every society a copy of american society?
Why create rights? Why try to get woman equal rights as men do? The reason is because we believe in fairness. Can you imagine of people, who don't see animals merely as property? Just try. That will explain to you why we have (some) rights for animals.
One major factor is doing something against anothers will. We know for a fact that animals do not want to be killed, don't want to feel fear or pain. Why would we impose things on them they don't want? Simply because we can? Might makes right is a horrible ideology.
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"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
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mvassilev
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posted July 19, 2008 07:41 PM |
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Why create rights? Why try to get woman equal rights as men do? The reason is because we believe in fairness.
No, the reason is that society has more to lose by denying them rights than by giving them rights.
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Can you imagine of people, who don't see animals merely as property?
Yes.
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We know for a fact that animals do not want to be killed, don't want to feel fear or pain. Why would we impose things on them they don't want? Simply because we can?
Because we are humans. When human will goes against non-human will, the human will should triumph, simply because it is human.
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TheDeath
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posted July 19, 2008 08:49 PM |
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No, the reason is that society has more to lose by denying them rights than by giving them rights.
This is the problem. If, for example, black people are lazy and don't want to work, while they have food (let's say from aliens), then society can be better off by enslaving them, but that doesn't mean it is an ok thing to do.
Don't bring the non-aggression principle, please, let's say that the black people don't even understand your language, how are you supposed to expect the same non-aggression from them? The non-aggression principle should apply to animals.
Remember, just because someone else does something to you (e.g: eats you), and that someone else is inferior, doesn't mean you have to respond the same (since you are able to reason and suppress your instincts, thus you are superior).
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mvassilev
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posted July 19, 2008 09:36 PM |
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then society can be better off by enslaving them
Are we ever going to have new subjects for discussion, or are we going to talk about the same stuff over and over again?  I said that society wouldn't be better off enslaving them, because we can tell that they are sentinent creatures, and that it would set a dangerous precedent ("If we can do it to them, why can't we do it to everybody else?")
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Remember, just because someone else does something to you (e.g: eats you), and that someone else is inferior, doesn't mean you have to respond the same (since you are able to reason and suppress your instincts, thus you are superior).
We have to suppress our instincts when it's in our interest to do so. But when someone aggresses against me, they can expect no mercy.
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TheDeath
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posted July 19, 2008 09:40 PM |
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("If we can do it to them, why can't we do it to everybody else?")
Because the law says so? Or because that "everybody" else wouldn't be good for society to be enslaved (since they e.g: are productive anyway)?
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We have to suppress our instincts when it's in our interest to do so. But when someone aggresses against me, they can expect no mercy.
Oh yeah, especially if that someone else is inferior (let's say that its mad guy), can you be angry at him? He didn't even know what he is doing, let's say... 
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mvassilev
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posted July 19, 2008 11:28 PM |
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Because the law says so?
But it's impossible to enforce the law with 100% efficiency.
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Or because that "everybody" else wouldn't be good for society to be enslaved (since they e.g: are productive anyway)?
It would be exceedingly difficult for society to make such relatively subtle distinctions. Society is not agile; it is cumbersome. It can't provide extremely specific morals; it can only be general. And in view of such limitations, it's better to be on the safe side.
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Oh yeah, especially if that someone else is inferior (let's say that its mad guy), can you be angry at him? He didn't even know what he is doing, let's say...
Hey, if someone attacks me, it doesn't matter why they're doing it. I'm going to defend myself with reasonable force.
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Minion
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posted July 19, 2008 11:44 PM |
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Why create rights? Why try to get woman equal rights as men do? The reason is because we believe in fairness.
No, the reason is that society has more to lose by denying them rights than by giving them rights.
We are talking about different things as usual. If a womans pay here is 85 cents for every 1€ a man makes, the pay is not equal. It is not about the fact that woman can't live with that money they make, they are doing fine. It is about the principle of fairness. Why should a woman get less pay for the same job? She shouldn't.
Some people have the ability to extend compassion beyond their own species. Some people have no compassion, all they see is productivity and numbers. They may even look at humans that are handicapped and think they shouldn't be part of the society as they don't improve the productivity of it...
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We know for a fact that animals do not want to be killed, don't want to feel fear or pain. Why would we impose things on them they don't want? Simply because we can?
Because we are humans. When human will goes against non-human will, the human will should triumph, simply because it is human.
Might makes right is a horrible ideology.
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"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
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del_diablo
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posted July 20, 2008 12:06 AM |
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Laws and rigths exist because humans ended up defineing what is wrong, what will hurt the public, etc. We got laws so we can live in peace. The strenght of the law will depend on how hard society will enforce it however.
Lets say group A makes slaves of group B. Group B will then try to figur out a way to liberate themself and have revenge on group A.
There is a reason why when you keep supressing people you make rules so they do not have a chance to gather. Look how Capricorne was invented, just image what the supressed part could end up doing today!
And what about the gifted people that gets supressed? This is part of the reason why non-equal rights will hamper(alot) society's evolution.
However, this tread is starting to reach Expert Offtopic soon
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mvassilev
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posted July 20, 2008 02:02 AM |
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We are talking about different things as usual. If a womans pay here is 85 cents for every 1€ a man makes, the pay is not equal. It is not about the fact that woman can't live with that money they make, they are doing fine. It is about the principle of fairness. Why should a woman get less pay for the same job? She shouldn't.
Whoa. Whoa. Back up there. This is a very interesting topic too, but not directly related to what we are talking about. If you're talking about government jobs, then I agree, it's wrong. But if you're talking about jobs in the private sector, the employee and the employer have a contract. The contract says that the employee is going to work a certain amount, and the employer is going to pay the employee a certain amount. And the employee will get paid as much as the contract says they will get paid. If their coworkers are getting paid more or less, it doesn't matter, because only what it says in the contract matters. And besides, since women are more likely to quit a job, and since people are less efficient when they start a job (because they have to get trained and used to everything, etc.), it may sometimes make sense to pay them less.
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Some people have no compassion, all they see is productivity and numbers.
Again, you're overlooking emotional benefits.
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Might makes right is a horrible ideology.
We can do what we do because of who we are. If cats, for example, were as intelligent as us, I'd fully expect them be trying to do the same thing for the species of cats.
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del_diablo
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posted July 20, 2008 11:16 AM |
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And besides, since women are more likely to quit a job, and since people are less efficient when they start a job (because they have to get trained and used to everything, etc.), it may sometimes make sense to pay them less.
WHAT?! Explain a bit more, and some refferances please.
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted July 20, 2008 12:45 PM |
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Well, the topic is getting sidetracked. The point behind all this was that when we build our society here, we try to be fair to everyone (not of course happening at the moment, striving there...) That was an example, of course if the applicant cannot do the job as well as another, the pay can be less. But if there is no reason, except that she is a woman, that is not to be tolerated. Same if he was gay, and the employer fires him for that reason and not his incompetence.
You may not feel that we should consider animal rights. But I can't feel that way. I am, as is most of humanity, responsible for extinction of species. I can live with that. In the future, I do want to minimize the harm we are doing to animals and nature. Your excuse "we are human" is a lousy one, it gives us no right to destroy this planet nor to mistreat our fellow earthlings.
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"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
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TheDeath
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posted July 20, 2008 02:13 PM |
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Again, you're overlooking emotional benefits.
That is perhaps the only thing that makes humanity "intelligent"
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We can do what we do because of who we are. If cats, for example, were as intelligent as us, I'd fully expect them be trying to do the same thing for the species of cats.
Whoa whoa slow down. If you think Intelligence has anything to do with self-interest, then you are wrong -- that is actually the opposite of being evolved, since it's what the most primitive organisms do (they are selfish). For example, there are a lot of people like me that care about nature without any 'benefits'. And let's say that we are both just as intelligent. Who is more "evolved" in mentality? Well, you think like an animal that pursues it's own self-interests and selfish instincts, but I suppress them (in a way). See? I am different thus you can say I am more "evolved" mentally than animals. Intelligence has absolutely nothing to do with selfishness. Actually, the more intelligent you are, the more 'reasonable' you are, thus you can understand the difference between selfishness (e.g: subjugating to your instincts) and altruism. That is, you can't say animals are "evil" since they can't really understand that difference. However, you can understand, and if you pursue the same things as animals, then pardon I don't think you get the point of intelligence. This is why we are not "innocent" like a child (in religions) or an animal, because we can understand the difference between being selfish and caring. That means, our reason enables us to choose between: doing what animals do, or being better (mentally obviously)... This is why I consider people that think only about their self instincts devolved, not more than an "animal".
And please don't tell me that we are animals (mentally) since you have an example right in front of your eyes: me Am I not a human since I disagree with you? I may be an animal biologically, but not mentally, since I can reason about selfishness and I can choose the path opposite of it -- that means I don't use my instincts, and I have no excuse to say "I am innocent" like a child or an animal that doesn't understand. This is one of the many things that religion is important -- I'm not talking about any supernatural existence, I'm talking about the "morals" of it and the view at mentality.
And as for your cat example, I disagree -- if extremely intelligent aliens would encounter us, I am 100% positive they will look at us and see how selfish and "devolved" we are, how "animalistic", and that's a bad thing, because we can understand the difference thus we are not innocent and we don't have that excuse. That is a lot worse than being just "an animal"
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted July 20, 2008 02:15 PM |
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Whoa whoa slow down. If you think Intelligence has anything to do with self-interest, then you are wrong -- that is actually the opposite of being evolved, since it's what the most primitive organisms do (they are selfish).
That's debateable.
Social evolution is very complex.. maybe we would be better off if we were alone
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DagothGares
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posted July 20, 2008 02:15 PM |
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Every man can and will be an island.
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mvassilev
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posted July 20, 2008 03:13 PM |
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del_diablo:
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WHAT?! Explain a bit more
Well, women are infinitely more likely to have children than men are, aren't they? And it is usually (though of course not always) that if one parent quits a job to take care of a child, it is usually the mother. So all that training goes to waste.
Minion:
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if there is no reason, except that she is a woman, that is not to be tolerated
The reason is not that she is a woman, but that she is statistically more likely to quit.
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Your excuse "we are human" is a lousy one, it gives us no right to destroy this planet nor to mistreat our fellow earthlings.
Well, then we must simply agree to disagree.
TheDeath:
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If you think Intelligence has anything to do with self-interest, then you are wrong -- that is actually the opposite of being evolved
So you say.
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For example, there are a lot of people like me that care about nature without any 'benefits'.
If you ignore emotional benefits, of course.
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Who is more "evolved" in mentality?
Your mentality is newer, but that doesn't make it better. Remember that one of the oldest species on Earth is the cocroach, and it's still thriving.
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That means, our reason enables us to choose between: doing what animals do, or being better (mentally obviously)...
Intelligence allows us to pursue our self-interest better and more efficiently.
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And please don't tell me that we are animals (mentally) since you have an example right in front of your eyes: me
You are a prime example of heavy reliance on emotional benefits.
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TheDeath
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posted July 20, 2008 03:28 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 16:30, 20 Jul 2008.
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Did you really have to split and make so many quotes? 
My mentality may be "newer" and the fact that you use the "So you say" proves that you didn't even take the time to read my arguments. With intelligence comes responsibility -- that is, you are no longer "innocent" of not knowing the consequences. If we are using the same (instinctual) mentality as animals, we are not only "no better" than them, but we are actually worse, for we can understand and suppress our instincts, they rarely can.
That is the important difference that I use to classify those that do not as reply in the same manner as others who don't understand (thus are innocent) "better" (if you know what I mean).
Also, survival is not characteristic of intelligence. It's what you do and think (since intelligence = think) that matters, not how long you "live"
EDIT: Simply put, intelligence grants you capability to be "different" than an animal (e.g: suppress your instincts and do something they won't do in return to you), and if you don't use this "capability" then you are not using the 'intelligence' word properly.
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Reborn
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posted July 25, 2008 01:37 AM |
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Dude,
World is a Crule place and we need to do sonething - but everything we do will not match what those childrens suffering.
poor kids.
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