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| Thread: Why is socialism so prevalent in online communities? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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DagothGares
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posted December 27, 2008 01:42 AM |
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I love you guys!
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william
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LummoxLewis
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posted December 27, 2008 01:44 AM |
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It's good to see Mvass make an effort in posting in which he doesn't continually post about things not related to the subject. Plus, his posting which doesn't include many quotes is a welcome change and is great to see.
And yes, I have read and followed this thread from when it was first created. 
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mvassilev
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posted December 27, 2008 01:49 AM |
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TheDeath:
Childish? It's childish to keep droning on about the same thing over and over again. No matter what I say, you always start, "It's unfair!" I'm tired of it. Either find some new arguments (while responding to mine reasonably) or just stop. I'm done discussing economics, politics, and philosophy with you. You will never listen.
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Vlaad
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posted December 27, 2008 03:38 AM |
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Edited by Vlaad at 16:32, 27 Dec 2008.
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Slightly off topic (sorry, mvass  ), I remember reading an article (a Google search ought to provide the name of the author) about intercultural dimensions, three of those being Individualism, Masculinity, and Power Distance. According to the article, these vary from country to country. I wonder if this theory has something to do with us seeing each other as missing half a brain in their head and being brainwashed...
Western countries such as the USA and Sweden are described as individualist, unlike collectivist China, Russia and Japan.
Masculinity actually refers to the set of values dominated by achievement, success, power, strength, etc. Inequity between genders still exists in "masculine" societies. These include Japan, China and the USA, but Russia and especially Sweden scored low on this scale.
Finally, Power Distance stands for differences between people of different status (employer/employee, rich/poor etc). Russia and China scored high, but the USA and Sweden had a low index.
In case I got it all right  is it possible that some societies are prone to capitalism or socialism? Or is it vice versa?
P.S. As for Australia, it's always neck and neck with the USA, so I guess Kooka is an exception, being an enlightened hard-working woman and all. 
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mvassilev
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posted December 27, 2008 04:08 AM |
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Is it this?
Interesting. The US is by far the most individualist country in the world. That explains a lot.
Certainly interesting stuff. But I don't really see what masculinity has to do with things, though.
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Vlaad
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posted December 27, 2008 04:15 AM |
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Is it this?
Yes! Well, not the site, but that's the topic.
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Certainly interesting stuff. But I don't really see what masculinity has to do with things, though.
A lot, actually. I understand it's not masculinity in the traditional sense of the word, more like being competitive (think the US vs. Sweden).
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mvassilev
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posted December 27, 2008 04:28 AM |
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Hmm... I read the description of masculinity, and I don't think it has anything to do with masculinity at all.
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Vlaad
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posted December 27, 2008 04:58 AM |
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Edited by Vlaad at 15:57, 27 Dec 2008.
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Hmm... I read the description of masculinity, and I don't think it has anything to do with masculinity at all.
Wiki agrees with you (and suggests Quantity vs Quality of Life, instead of Masculine vs Feminine)... although the word here has a broad meaning and doesn't refer to sexuality anyway.
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Zielevitz
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Resistance is futile!
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posted December 27, 2008 12:16 PM |
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Would it be ok to force him to help me?
I don't know.
You take a look at your dying child and tell me.
It is now answer. It is just ad auditorium sentence.
What if I really don't care about starving child in africa and I just want my family not to be hungry? Will you forbid me to be, as you call, "selfish prick"? Because, in fact, you want to
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Sure, principles can allow however much you'd like to give, but in order to assure people surviving - much like having police, which I strongly dislike - you have the medical tax as the basis.
Wrong answer. Police and army is two things that really serve EVERYONE and everyone in country should pay for those (some libertarians say even that police institution should be private but if you don't pay for protection then don't ask for help if your wallet is stolen ;p)
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Blessed be everyone who gives over that, but in order to assure a constant stream of help, you need to have a minimal, obligatory sum.
How about private foundations?
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After all, those same laws and rules which ensure paying taxes, ensure that you are paid for the work you do.
Not the same laws. Situation in Poland: 19% of my earned money I must pay just because I earned it. If I have a firm and sell for example baby boots then for every pair of boots I have to pay 22% VAT. If I want to employ someone, then I have to pay for his assurance from 700(sure of this) to 1500 (AFAIR) złoty per month. Also, 19% of money that I pay them have to be paid for earing tax. I have to pay for my assurance and retiring each month same price as for my employees.
Very often if I pay my employee 2000 zł per month, my REAL cost is about 4000 zł! Also, from his earning he have to pay another pathetic taxes, that leave him with about 1600zł. With every each thing he buy he pay price+taxes+7 to 22% vat.
So because of socialistic idiotic taxes that only feeds bureaucracy I can't earn 4000 zł but 1600! Isn't that robbery? Don't tell me fairy tales which is only ad auditorium when someone steals MY money!
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You have to realize that in order to actually OWN those personal possessions you praise so much, you need to have codes and regulations. Else, you get anarchy, which is a completely another story.
You are wrong again.
Liberal example:
I am taylor. I want to sell blue jeans for 100$. Customer comes to my shop, gives 100 bucks to me, take the jeans and leave. You are happy and next day when you meet a poor people you give him 10$ and tell him that he should buy something to eat.
Social example:
After getting a concesion, permission for economic activity, getting my identification number to pay taxes with and inspection in my shop if it is clean and whatever I want to sell blue jeans. I want sell them for 100$ just as before. Here comes a customer. He pays me 100 bucks and leaves. THEN it comes social employee and tells me "give me 75$ of your earned 100$" (don't tell me it's too much because I can prove you that I am right). Of course you tell him to go away fast  Then he takes you to prison. Now you are such a selfish prick, you don't want to help poor people! Shame on you!
Do you see it now?
What happens? I wouldn't sell it for 100$ but for around 220$ (percentage taxes) so I could have 100$ for myself. Less people would buy it because it is expensive. Most of taylors will loose everything because they won't have customers and money to live and will get a pathetic social help.
What if there wouldn't be FORCED social help? Bread wouldn't cost 2zł but 1 zł - more people could buy it, less people would be povert 
You should heal cause, not result
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No, it's not illegal to be a selfish prick. It's just illegal not to pay taxes. Whether you're personally selfish or not, that's completely up to you.
But you told that If I wouldn't pay then I am selish prick.
wouldn't pay = selfish prick
wouldn't pay = illegal
selfish prick != illegal?
:-)
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About your final argument, one's personal opinion on whether dying people should be helped or not matters as much as a Nazi's opinion that Jews have to be exterminated.
Even less people would day if you give them all you have. Don't you want to do this?
If you know better than me what should I do with MY money and what I own then it is fascism. Better take it away from me and manage it by yourself then because I am unresponsible. I don't want to do what YOU WANT me to do!
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I'm an individualist, an anarchist to some level, I support, respect and love personal expression and opinions - but in order for such freedom to function, people need to realize they have to help each other and not just look into their own plates, lest the world turns into an even greater craphole.
So let them realize. If someone is forcing me to do somethig then I think "what a fascism! I can't decide on my own!"
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Until we evolve to that stage of self-consciousness, and until we leave the "IT'S MY MONEY, I DON'T HAVE TO SHARE IT WITH HIM, WHO CARES IF HE'S POOR" attitude behind us, yeah, making us pay a few bucks in order to save lives is quite alright with me.
So pay, but dont make ME pay just because you think it's nesecarry to save the world
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And I'd feel much better if I just paid that medical tax, knowing that not only did I help someone, but I'll also be helped if need arise.
And I don't feel much better mr. ad auditorium.
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The entire system needs improvement, sure - it needs to be more efficient, have a greater coverage, etcetera - but in its core there's absolutely nothing wrong with the idea.
It is. Pressure.
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del_diablo
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posted December 27, 2008 12:22 PM |
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Hmm... I read the description of masculinity, and I don't think it has anything to do with masculinity at all.
I think it does, simply because there are not a women-supreme society out there in a manner of speaking at the moment.
I guess we can blame christianity for that? 
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So because of socialistic idiotic taxes that only feeds bureaucracy I can't earn 4000 zł but 1600! Isn't that robbery? Don't tell me fairy tales which is only ad auditorium when someone steals MY money!
What happens if you get terribly ill and need an operation?
And what is the money used on? If the goverment screws around to much at that point society is actually better of private, but if it does what it does and it does not go wrong at some point its decent.
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baklava
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posted December 27, 2008 12:27 PM |
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@Zielevitz
I promised I won't spam this thread with off-topic quote-wars. I'm a man of my word.
We can open a new thread about morals versus capital if you want.
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Zielevitz
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posted December 27, 2008 12:30 PM |
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Well, it is just compare - i both cases you take away someone's free decision about things that belongs to him. In one case it's stupid car, in second money. Maybe this money can help someone but hey, isn't it mine money and couldn't I decide if I want to help?
The money may not necessarily belong to you. You see, there's this thing called SITUATIONAL ADVANTAGE. Some people are handicapped. They have a situational disadvantage. If they weren't they would earn as much money as you. But they can't, so there's this 'unfairness' factor I keep talking about. In this case, if you become a billionaire because you had a situational advantage (NOT because of your own 'will'), then that thing does not belong to you -- it should be distributed to even out the difference between people.
This difference I keep talking about is not in their WILL. If someone WANTS and has the dedication just as someone else but can't be the same due to various factors that are out of his control (opportunities, luck, situation, etc etc), then it is unfair and the one who gets them does not deserve them ANY MORE than the other guy.
If someone would break in your house and steal 70% of what you have, then leave message "I will give it to people with situational disadvantage" what would you do? I would call police to catch bastard
Now, if I there is stolen 70% of my earnings and given to the povert and I would call a police in your oppinion they SHOULD say "You are such selfish prick!" and go back to work?
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It's not about how much you work. It's about whether or not you are in a better position/situation than someone else that you earn more. I'm talking big sums of $$$ here, with lots of 0s.
So just because I have a work you want to forbid me NOT to care about people in "situational disadvantage"?
If someone is stealing what I own then I don't care if he is in "situational disadvantage" or is he a robin hood. I'm just going to kick his ass In your perfect vision the state should be such a robin hood.
Maybe someone deserve more money than I have, but you know what? I don't care what who deserves Am I guilty that he have less money? No! So I shouldn't be forced to pay him! I can of course if I want, but I shouldn't be pressed as I am now!
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Zielevitz
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Resistance is futile!
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posted December 27, 2008 12:34 PM |
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What happens if you get terribly ill and need an operation?.
Should I force everyone around to help me?
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We can open a new thread about morals versus capital if you want
If you think that stealing ownage and free will with lot of fascism is moral - go on
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Lady_Milena
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posted December 27, 2008 01:20 PM |
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It is interesting that most of these forums are for gamers. And they attract people from all over the world – a large proportion of the human race outside America. This would suggest that it the US that are the ones that are brainwashed…
I agree on this one.
As an European, I keep on telling people it isn't like that at all. Non-Americans see Americans as very holier-than-thou beings, ignorant and arrogant to that. This isn't however, some kind of government master plan. It's much simplier than that.
You can't form an opinion or make a judgement if you haven't experienced when you judge. You can't give your opinion on food just by looking at it, without tasting it. The truth is, Americans have little opportunity to taste said food. In Europe, it is inevitable to learn more about the cultures of different nations just because countries are smaller, boundaries are easily crossed and history is all over. In fact learning a foreign language is the first, and best step to understanding other cultures and the mechanism of their society.
Geographically speaking, the US is a very isolated country. We have Canada to the north and let's face it, the two are very similar. Then we have Mexico to the south. And that's it! How many American- borns speak well another language? It's mostly Spanish and that's because of the obscene amount of immigrants coming from Latin and South America. But how about German? Italian? French? In European schools it's mandatory to study one, often two foreign languages. More or less, it DOES make you more open to the idea that other people do have a different lifestyle and indeed, they may be successful with it too.
Also see, how many of us Europeans have been never abroad? Raise your hands! Mostly teenagers there. How many AMERICAN adults have never been abroad? Not counting Canada of course. Most that I know of, haven't been overseas. And you think that doesn't influence people? Think again! Though have in mind, when it costs you over 800 USD just to fly to the closest country, can you really do it?
Next, schooling. Geography and world history are an obligatory part of schooling in Europe but not in the States. "History" in the US implies American history and this pretty much means that last couple of centuries. Some are unable to answer elementary questions such as "Is Spain a monarchy or a republic?" or "how about the Czech Republic?" or "what's the capital of Hungary?." Once again, it's not because many Americans don't want to know the answers to these questions, it's not a part of the schooling system to know.
And THEN we have news on TV. At least where I live, half of the news involve international politics. Not in the US, as far as my observations go. And then, international politics would involve the visit of the President somewhere, or the war the States are currently involved in. Very little, or nothing on other countries.
So where does this get us?
So isolated and with access to so little information at large, Americans do not have the base to make observations and draw conclusions. Most of my American friends listen with great interest when I tell them stories about the lifestyle in Europe and some even make their own research but there has to be that first sparkle to start the engine. Europeans should also have these things in mind before letting some qualifications reflect in their attitude.
It's all in the attitude people, American or European, there is no excuse for showing no respect.
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Doomforge
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posted December 27, 2008 03:58 PM |
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Also see, how many of us Europeans have been never abroad? Raise your hands! Mostly teenagers there.
There is a big difference between Western Europe and Central/Eastern Europe. I have never been abroad cause I can't afford it. And many of my mates either.
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How many AMERICAN adults have never been abroad? Not counting Canada of course. Most that I know of, haven't been overseas. And you think that doesn't influence people? Think again! Though have in mind, when it costs you over 800 USD just to fly to the closest country, can you really do it?
When it costs 200 USD but you earn 1/10 of what an average American does, it's no better, trust me.
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So where does this get us?
So isolated and with access to so little information at large, Americans do not have the base to make observations and draw conclusions. Most of my American friends listen with great interest when I tell them stories about the lifestyle in Europe and some even make their own research but there has to be that first sparkle to start the engine. Europeans should also have these things in mind before letting some qualifications reflect in their attitude.
I don't know, never met an American personally, just spoke with American guys on forums (also on HC). They never seemed dumb to me, tbh.
However, there is no justification to ignorance. Saying that "they are isolated" just doesn't cut. I'm isolated too because I'm damn poor. Why should I care about the world? Yet I still do. Even if I will most likely never see it.
Mvass: I see the point of what you pointed out, but still, doesn't it feel a bit, well, unfair that a random football player in one month earns more that your whole family earns in a year?
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mvassilev
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posted December 27, 2008 04:19 PM |
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I don't like it. But I accept the fact that I don't run the world. I accept that society is willing to pay entertainers more than it's willing to pay engineers. I'm not going to try to stop them by force. Maybe it's time for the socialists to realize that as well.
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TheDeath
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posted December 27, 2008 04:25 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 16:29, 27 Dec 2008.
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Childish? It's childish to keep droning on about the same thing over and over again. No matter what I say, you always start, "It's unfair!" I'm tired of it. Either find some new arguments (while responding to mine reasonably) or just stop. I'm done discussing economics, politics, and philosophy with you. You will never listen.
Of course i say the same stuff because you don't reply to it with something new either, just with the same janitor example.
You: A
Me: B
You: A
Me: B
can't say it's my fault, at least I replied to your example with something else (i.e my reply comes AFTER yours), but you then repeat yourself
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Now, if I there is stolen 70% of my earnings and given to the povert and I would call a police in your oppinion they SHOULD say "You are such selfish prick!" and go back to work?
That's because you think with "stealing". Stealing what you earned from your opportunities does not belong to you ANY MORE than to someone else, so it's not even stealing in this case.
Not everyone needs police, some guys can defend themselves or have a private police.
Not everyone needs schools, so we should abolish public school too.
Not everyone needs streets, so let's make them private too.
Otherwise, OMG they are mugging the citizens 
'stealing' is a definition that varies it seems, I have different views on what's stealing and what's not. Taking what you have achieved with your superior opportunities is not stealing in my opinion because you are not entitled to those opportunities any more than someone else.
@mvass:Quote:
I accept that society is willing to pay entertainers more than it's willing to pay engineers. I'm not going to try to stop them by force.
Oh need way more than just "accept" if you dare to call yourself a capitalist. Who are you to say that engineering is more important if people demand it less? In capitalistic society, efficiency is measured by what people demand and how that is supplied. Therefore, if people want to be cavemen, then supply them and it'll be in the most efficient way for society (of course entertainment isn't cavemen, but it was just an analogy). Society is nothing more than the people comprising it.
If you have 'idealized' theories about what's good for society and that people don't know what's good for them, you are not only being a socialist, but also a somewhat authoritarian one.
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kookastar
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posted December 27, 2008 04:27 PM |
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Not everyone can be rich. But no one has to be poor
Incorrect!!! Not in a capatalist society - unless you bring in slaves from somewhere to be the low income workers - or people are willing to pay $20 for a big mac. I'm not going to dwell on this because I don't really have the time to express my point clearly enough for you to understand. My comment on the 'real job' was in response to your reference - I was wondering what you actually consider to be a real job? Btw I value janitors very highly, ALOT more than plastic surgeons.
re the individualism - it is the first step in making a capatalist society of course. differentiation, putting people in boxes, then making them think they are lacking so they consume. I'm sure you know the argument.
@vlaad that sounds like an interesting article if you link it, I'd like to read it when I have the time.
re Australia as mini America - uhuh uhuh. We've finally changed governments though  Mightn't be able to turn back the clock but hopefully will slow things down a little.
Thanks for your sweet  comment - I've been asking myself if it was working 80hrs a week scrubbing/chopping, or the education that really made me so passionate about this. I guess it takes a little of both. It is very hard for people born middle class and above to truly understand the working class and below. It's easy to judge when you are ignorant.
anyway, have we answered the question to this thread yet? Is it because of the multinational membership of the forums, the minds of gamers as a species, or that socialists are more passionate about posting their beliefs, or something else entirely...
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mvassilev
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posted December 27, 2008 04:40 PM |
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TheDeath:
What part of "I'm done talking to you about this" don't you understand?
Kooka:
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Incorrect!!! Not in a capatalist society - unless you bring in slaves from somewhere to be the low income workers
No. First, there's something called offshoring. Let the Chinese do the basic industrial work, and everyone in the Western world be middle- or upper-class. Everyone is better off - including the Chinese, who get paid much, much more than they would otherwise. Of course, that is only a relatively temporary thing. Eventually, with greater mechanization, we will have machines doing most of the work that the poor do now. And we don't have to pay machines at all.
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My comment on the 'real job' was in response to your reference - I was wondering what you actually consider to be a real job?
Anything that is not a job that the employee means to be temporary (ex. the jobs that most people take in high school and, to some extent, college).
And I think it's because socialists tend to be more expressive of their beliefs since the world is currently tilted in the opposite direction. I think that if the internet and HC existed back in the late 70s/early 80s, we would see more capitalists than socialists.
And because people who go to message boards tend to be younger, and young people tend to be less rational.
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Asheera
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posted December 27, 2008 04:56 PM |
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And because people who go to message boards tend to be younger, and young people tend to be less rational.
Those "young people" that join message boards are not really getting into political debates, don't you think so?
And ironically, you are probably the youngest here in this thread, and support capitalism.
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