Heroes of Might and Magic Community
visiting hero! Register | Today's Posts | Games | Search! | FAQ/Rules | AvatarList | MemberList | Profile


Age of Heroes Headlines:  
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
6 Aug 2016: Troubled Heroes VII Expansion Release - read more
26 Apr 2016: Heroes VII XPack - Trial by Fire - Coming out in June! - read more
17 Apr 2016: Global Alternative Creatures MOD for H7 after 1.8 Patch! - read more
7 Mar 2016: Romero launches a Piano Sonata Album Kickstarter! - read more
19 Feb 2016: Heroes 5.5 RC6, Heroes VII patch 1.7 are out! - read more
13 Jan 2016: Horn of the Abyss 1.4 Available for Download! - read more
17 Dec 2015: Heroes 5.5 update, 1.6 out for H7 - read more
23 Nov 2015: H7 1.4 & 1.5 patches Released - read more
31 Oct 2015: First H7 patches are out, End of DoC development - read more
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
[X] Remove Ads
LOGIN:     Username:     Password:         [ Register ]
HOMM1: info forum | HOMM2: info forum | HOMM3: info mods forum | HOMM4: info CTG forum | HOMM5: info mods forum | MMH6: wiki forum | MMH7: wiki forum
Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: Heroes V: Interactive Landscape
Thread: Heroes V: Interactive Landscape This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
Celfious
Celfious


Promising
Legendary Hero
Shadow visionaire
posted October 30, 2003 10:52 AM
Edited By: Celfious on 10 Nov 2003

hows it goin'?
this post dosnt count

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | PP | Quote Reply | Link
ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted October 30, 2003 10:52 AM
Edited By: ThE_HyDrA on 31 Oct 2003

Heroes V: Interactive Landscape

This idea has popped up in my recent threads several times without much recognition, and so I’ve taken the liberty to expand my idea in order for it to gain more member participation.

The theory I have concerning interactive landscape is one of realism and strategy incorporated into both the combat map and the adventure map. In the world of Heroes, there exists volcanoes, swamps, mountains, and other natural forms of matter. However, these objects, as we have known them, have been merely static ones and have not served much of a purpose aside from building up the countryside. My plan is to make these seemingly simple objects take a step towards realism….

I propose to insert natural effects into the Heroes series. For example, there could be two types of mountains. These are: the mountains that we are used to in the series, and a new type, upon which castles, structures etc. are placed. The second type is quite similar to the ‘depressions’ we have in Heroes IV, except they are much more noticeable, and have the edges of a mountain.
Additionally, each new landscape object has a strategic function or a purpose, not just for looks. Taking a cliff for example. A cliff can be used to station troops in – if there is a cave within it. It also acts a temporary barrier until it fades away and the ground becomes level. Using a more dynamic object, a volcano has two functions, neither of them beneficial to the player. 1. Occasionally, there are lava flows which can flow onto the path of travel, or not if they are in a remote area. This stops the army from crossing, but when it dries (1 week or so) it is again possible to cross. In map editor, you would be able to set the radius of the flow, how long it takes to dry, and when it occurs and how often. 2. Volcanic eruptions can happen (combat only), and when they do it is a much weaker Armageddon.

Each main terrain has its own special landscape object that will have a dynamic or static effect. Nevertheless, it would be strategic, and it would have more of a bearing on the way you play the game. Each object will also have its own editable properties in map editor, concerning its function.

Continuing where Heroes IV left off, these interactive landscape objects will also be present on the adventure map. If you are fighting a battle near a bog, then there will be a bog in combat which will have much the same effect as a moat, except it also reduces speed. The same applies for a volcano, a fort, a wall, a chasm, etc. Each interactive landscape object will have 1 combat effect and 1 adventure map effect. However, this does not mean that the two won’t be interchangeable. For the volcano, you would be able to select if the lava flow is for combat or adventure map, or both. The decision is really up to you when editing. But I hope the game will have defaults. The defaults I choose are the ones listed in combat and adventure map effects.

The terrains that will be represented are as follows: Grass, Rough, Dirt, Snow, Volcanic, Swamp, Sand and Subterranean. Feel free to suggest more for these terrains, or others for other terrains. There will also be a few interactive landscape objects that have no specific terrain, and can appear almost anywhere. The terrains that they can appear in will be listed.

Grass: Forest
A forest is an abundance of trees that are native to grassland areas, which are found in small pockets of the grass terrain. Among the trees in the forests, there are shrubs, oaks, pines, and colossal redwoods that tower above the canopy.
Adventure Map Effect: It is more difficult for a passing army to travel through the woods than it is to travel through an open field. Therefore, travelling in a forested area will slow movement by 50%, as the often-sizeable army must negotiate the trees while commuting. Additionally, large redwoods act as primitive lookouts, which show 75% of the area radius shown by purpose-built lookouts. While these giant redwoods are somewhat scarce, they can be extremely helpful.
Combat Map Effect: Each tree has its own combat effect. They are as follows:
Shrub: The shrub decreases the effectiveness of ranged attacks by 50%. So if a creature stands directly behind it, it will only receive 50% damage from a ranged attack.
Pines and Oaks: Standing directly behind these (not in the LoS) will result in total obscurement from view of the creatures. No ranged attack will be possible, no spell that requires LoS will be possible.
Redwoods: While also possessing the effect of the pines and oaks, troops can also use one turn to climb the redwood, and thereafter use it as a ranged attacking post for the duration of combat. Only spells and other ranged attacks will be able to hurt the creature. While there, the creature gets 100% ranged attack, and ranged attackers firing against it receive –50%.
Map Editor Properties: One can change the effects of every objects, but only within the range of percent. So, it is not possible to change the shrub so it acts as a pine tree or a redwood. It is not possible to interchange combat and adventure map effects on this occasion.

Rough: Crag
A crag is a dangerous mountain wherein creatures of might dwell. The crag provides a good vantage point, but if the creatures within decide to surface, it may not be too wise staying.
Adventure Map Effect: Crags act as a redwood does, it shows 75% of the radius that a normal lookout would. When climbing the crag, it slows movement by 50%.
Combat Map Effect: It is possible for rangers to scale the peak. It takes them one turn, and it provides them with 100% ranged ability, and the opponent receives –50%. It can be attack by melee, it is possible for the opponent to climb the crag, too. Every 2 turns in combat, a preset number of berserkers jumps out from the crag, and attacks the nearest creature.
Map Editor Properties: An editor can set numerous parameters here. The effect of the lookout on the adventure map, the percent the movement is slowed by (cannot go higher than –1, or lower than –100). In the combat map, percentage can be againe edited, as well as the frequency of creatures surfacing (every creature turn – never), what type of creature, and how many.

Dirt: Valley
The valley is a large, unstable gathering of synclines and anticlines, with little structure. This causes the valleys to change where their anticlines and synclines are dependant on where armies travel most.
Adventure Map Effect: Valleys act similar to mountains, in the way that when you travel down them, movement increases by 50%, and when you travel up them, it decreases by 50%.
Combat Map Effect: If a unit is stuck in a valley, it has several disabilities:
melee: The creature/hero deals 50% less damage to a unit above it (and vice-versa)
ranged: The unit deals 50% less damage to a creature/hero above it (and vice-versa) flying: It takes one turn to get from the bottom of the valley back to the flatlands. Often, a valley will have mountains surrounding it, which units can scale to the top of if they please. These mountains have the same effect as a turret.
Map Editor Properties: One can alter the adventure map effect % by however much they want, provided going up the valley decreases the movement, and going down increases it. All combat map effects can be altered, again, sticking to the advantages and disadvantages they entail. So, being in a valley can never be at an advantage.

Sand: Mirage
The wind, the heat, and the sun all act in a mystical way to create the mirage; the hallucination that can have real effects.
Adventure Map Effect: The mirage in an adventure map renders an opposing army unable to see a hero (and his army) within a mirage. Unlike a sanctuary, it does not cost money to enter.
Combat Map Effect: In combat is where the mirage really stands out in terms of uniqueness. Any creature in the mirage has a permanent ‘blur’ spell cast over them. They are very difficult to hit (and therefore hard to deal fair damage). The mirage, however, has room for more than one unit (2 at the largest level, e.g. two Hydras or 6 dwarves.) Taking this into account, any fighting that takes place within the mirage, -50% damage is dealt. One question remains, how will it be depicted?
Map Editor Properties: The adventure map effect cannot be changed. In combat, however, you can alter the effectiveness of the blur spell to 99% or 1%. You can alter the size of the mirage, and have up to 4 Hydra – sized creatures in it. Lastly, the hand-to-hand in the mirage can be changed to either –1% or –99%.

Subterranean: Warren
Deep within these dank and uninviting areas there dwell troglodytes. They infest the area, and their thousands of dwellings have created intricate patterns of tunnels, scattered around the underground.
Adventure Map Effect: The tunnels within a warren can either lead you off the track, or take you somewhere you wouldn’t have been able to get to before.
Combat Map Effect: When near a warren, the warren will take up almost all of the combat map (depending on how close you are to it). Generally, the warren would take up ½ or 2/3 of it. When in combat, there will be a series of tunnels through which your creatures/ units can travel, and there will be exits/entrances at the top and side of the warren. I thought this was a nice twist to incorporate stealth into combat.
Map Editor Properties: Concerning the adventure map side of the equation, you can script where the tunnels will lead, provided none of them are dead ends. In the combat map, you can again chose how the tunnels will be constructed, but not to such a large extent, because it would be difficult to include in the game.

The next three (Snow, Swamp, Volcanic) will be posted at the head of my upcoming posts on the topic.

Grass, Dirt, Rough: Peak
Mountains are the result of the movement of tectonic plates that move across the earth surface. They are one of the most common sights you will see. However, only a few of these mountains have peaks above 5,000m.
Adventure Map Effect: Peaks are the best lookout available in this game. The peak displays 50% more radius than general lookouts would. However, it takes two turns to scale the peak entirely. The area you uncover will not go under the fog of war until you climb down from the peak. Creatures such as the Ice Demon receive +50% when fighting on a peak.
Combat Map Effect: The peak has a similar combat effect to its adventure map effect. Creatures can scale the peak, (which takes 2 turns) and then deal 200% in ranged attacks, ranged attacks firing up to it deal –100%. Creatures can conduct hand-to-hand melee at the summit.
Map Editor Properties: In map editor, the map maker can edit the effectiveness of the peak, (between +1% and +100%), the choice of the fog of war being on or off when you lookout from the peak, and the bonus water based creatures receive (between 25% and 100%). The Combat effects that are able to be altered are the proficiency of ranged attacks (and vice-versa), and where the creatures can fight in melee.

Grass, Dirt, Rough, Sand, Subterranean: Lake
Another common feature of the Enrothian/Erathian/Axeothian landscape are lakes. Small bodies of water that can have adverse (or positive) effects.
Adventure Map Effect: Lake water levels rise and fall, and this means they can overflow, or the lake can dry completely. When it overflows, movement is slowed for the affected area, and when it is dry, an army is able to cross it.
Combat Map Effect: In combat, the lake becomes like a large moat, and has the same effects, that is, it slows movement, and makes the unit more susceptible to attack (50% each). Fluctuations in lake water levels do not occur during combat.
Map Editor Properties: The editable properties of a lake in the adventure map are: you can set when the lake water levels fluctuate, setting the day, and what action it will have. In combat, the only element that can be altered is the percentage of the slowed movement and weakened defense.

This idea is one of the many I have had, and members please feel free to suggest any new interactive landscape object ideas that you may have. I would appreciate any opinions you may have about this idea.

____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | PP | Quote Reply | Link
Dragon_Slayer
Dragon_Slayer


Honorable
Supreme Hero
toss toss toss
posted October 30, 2003 12:14 PM

Wow nice Idea Hydra. Oh and nice 6 stars, they suit you!
Well about your idea I also agree that this would make the battles in Heroes V much more involving and would allow for much more strategic game play.

Can you imagine hiding behind a giant redwood or sneaking up on your opponent for a surprise attack? This would make battles 100x more interesting but there is one problem I can think of. The amount of detail on the screen would take up too much room. The trees and shrubs might take up to much room and the screen and you wouldn’t be able to see other things. This is only a minor problem and could easily be overcome.

Quote:
It is more difficult for a passing army to travel through the woods than it is to travel through an open field. Therefore, travelling in a forested area will slow movement by 50%


Will this percentage decrease if you are of a certain alignment, like preserve or a certain class like a ranger?

With the mirage a good idea would be for a random creature to appear on the combat map and attack any creature from any side. This would add an element of surprise and would give players a bit more to worry about. The mountain idea is also good but there should also be an artifact or treasure at the top. This gives more incentive to waste (use) two turns two scale a mountain.
The lake should also have some beneficial effects when visited on the adventure map. A heroes army be able to wash wounds and drink from the lake, giving them 25% more melee strength.

I don’t think that too many attributes of the ‘new terrains’ should be editable. A person could change each terrain to suit his or her own needs. In my opinion this is cheating and removes the fun of getting used to each terrain and how to use them.

Another terrain to consider would be a swamplands terrain where creatures can become caught on weeds or sink into the marshes. Movement would be slowed by 50% except for creatures native to that land.

Another one would be a dragon’s lair. The land would be parched and small holes in the ground will spew lava up. Dragon type creatures gain a 10% bonus to all stats when fighting in this area. Also the area is filled with dead bodies and has an eerie atmosphere. This means that a heroes army cannot enter unless the hero has basic leadership. Also you would be unable to run from battles because the area is too confined.

Hope you like my ideas. Once again nice thread and don’t go bragging about those stars now

____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
EmperorSly
EmperorSly


Known Hero
Destroyer of Liver
posted October 31, 2003 09:40 AM

giant redwood is cool, but nicest would be using displacement on those archers on top of the tree and see them moved one hex to the right and then plunge to ground to death...
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted November 02, 2003 05:53 AM bonus applied.
Edited By: ThE_HyDrA on 6 Nov 2003

Ideas and Solutions

Swamp: Bog
The most troublesome section of a swamp is a bog. They can make travelling very difficult, and they are home to some of the fiercest creatures in the world o Heroes V.
Adventure Map Effect: The army receives –75% movement when crossing a bog. This is added, cumulatively onto the movement penalty for the swamp. Armies with Swamp dwellers are exempt from this penalty. There is a 5% chance that a small Fortress-type army will attack you when crossing.
Combat Map Effect: Creatures crossing the swamp will be 50% more susceptible to attack, and will have a –75% movement penalty. Again, Swamp creatures are excluded from the latter penalty.
Map Editor Properties: For the adventure map, you can alter the movement negation value, as long as it is a negative, change if this applies to Swamp creatures, the percentage of a small army, and what creatures are in that army. Concerning the combat map, it is possible to change the percentage of susceptibility, the movement penalty, and if Swamp Dwellers are excluded from these penalties.

Dragon_Slayer

“Wow nice Idea Hydra. Oh and nice 6 stars, they suit you!

Thanks, Dragon_Slayer, you are one of the few who’ve noticed and said something about it.

“Well about your idea I also agree that this would make the battles in Heroes V much more involving and would allow for much more strategic game play.”

Yes, that was the purpose for placing these objects in the game, and especially in combat, is where they excel, and have the most radical effect. The idea of including more interactive objects, and likening them to real life provides a diverse range of opportunities to make battles more involving and allowing for more strategies to be integrated into the way one plays.

“The amount of detail on the screen would take up too much room. The trees and shrubs might take up to much room and the screen and you wouldn’t be able to see other things. This is only a minor problem and could easily be overcome.”

This can be a potential problem, but, as you say, it can be easily overcome. What I have in mind is for taller objects such as the giant redwood, and the peak, maybe only a portion of the object will be displayed, and they wouldn’t be right in the centre of combat. The peak would either be on one side of the other, while the redwood could be situated on all sides, just not near the middle. This way, they would not impair the players view.

“It is more difficult for a passing army to travel through the woods than it is to travel through an open field. Therefore, travelling in a forested area will slow movement by 50%
Will this percentage decrease if you are of a certain alignment, like preserve or a certain class like a ranger?”

No, for the particular example you have chosen, it will apply for all classes, unless they have grandmaster path finding or something that allows them to have no movement penalties. This could be an artifact, a specialty, or a skill. The preserve will gain a movement bonus on grass, which will be translated over to the forest. So, if the Preserve town has 125% on grass, then it will have –25% over forest.

“With the mirage a good idea would be for a random creature to appear on the combat map and attack any creature from any side.”

I somewhat disagree with this idea. I however agree with the roots of the idea. Disrupting two armies in combat is not favourable. It would be much more laudable to have the creature interrupt on the adventure map, where it cannot change the outcome of a battle. I especially for easy battles, I wouldn’t like to lose some creatures just because a random creature came out from the mirage.

“The mountain idea is also good but there should also be an artifact or treasure at the top. This gives more incentive to waste (use) two turns two scale a mountain.”

Despite the fact that I disagree with this motive, it would not work anyway. What if someone has already climbed this mountain and collected the treasure? Then there will be nothing left for the other player. Besides, I don’t think the two turns that are required to climb the peak have been ill spent. It is a great bonus to uncover a large portion of the adventure map, (sometimes over half in a small map) and not have the fog of war hinder your vision. It could also be used as a centre point in small scenarios; for example, you need to reach the peak in the middle to see how to enter other areas that have been blocked from your hero’s radius.

“The lake should also have some beneficial effects when visited on the adventure map. A heroes army be able to wash wounds and drink from the lake, giving them 25% more melee strength.”

This is a praiseworthy proposal. I am quite fond of this idea. Of course, it should only work on creatures which have been in a combat without visiting a castle or another healing place, otherwise it wouldn’t have any effect.

“I don’t think that too many attributes of the ‘new terrains’ should be editable. A person could change each terrain to suit his or her own needs. In my opinion this is cheating and removes the fun of getting used to each terrain and how to use them.”

The map editor properties do not change the effects of the fundamental terrains in the game, but only of the effects that the interactive landscape objects have, and the severity of them. The percentages and numbers I have listed under each interactive landscape object are the defaults, and will appear in every NWC-made map, which you cannot edit. I believe allowing people to openly edit every feature of the object allows freedom and creativity within the map, that may have a bearing on the outcome.
Additionally, if the map maker thinks that the bonuses are unfair, or could be altered slightly, they have the ability to change it. It by no means implies that they have to change the percentages, only if they think it would be best to. Someone like yourself may not like to tamper with the basic elements of these objects, and can leave them as they are. The editable properties are an open invitation, it is not compulsory to change them.

“Another terrain to consider would be a swamplands terrain where creatures can become caught on weeds or sink into the marshes. Movement would be slowed by 50% except for creatures native to that land.”

Indeed, I had already considered this, but did not write it in the initial post, but have done so now, incorporating some of your ideas. However, I believed that –75% would be more fitting, because, if you have actually entered into a bog, it is extremely difficult to move quickly (or at all, for that matter).

“Another one would be a dragon’s lair. The land would be parched and small holes in the ground will spew lava up. Dragon type creatures gain a 10% bonus to all stats when fighting in this area.”

While I like the stipulations and your idea for this structure, I am wondering how its effects will differ from that of a Dragon Cave. Why would there be a Dragon’s Lair if there was already a Dragon’s Cave (to recruit dragons) and a Dragon Utopia (to fight them) ? If you can find a plausible explanation to this dilemma, I will write up a section on it (or you could, if you would like).

“This means that a heroes army cannot enter unless the hero has basic leadership. Also you would be unable to run from battles because the area is too confined.”

Your ideas there have sparked one in me. Here we go:

Cursed Ground: Graveyard
The area of the dead and the site of many burial rituals among many religions, the graveyard of the cursed ground is a feared place of death.
Adventure Map Effect: The army requires Advanced leadership to enter into the graveyard. Armies with predominantly death-aligned creatures fear nothing, and all effects of the graveyard do not apply.
Combat Map Effect: Every time a creature enters the graveyard area of the battlefield, (after every turn) panic is instilled and the creature runs to one hex from the graveyard. Again, this does not apply to death creatures, which receive a 25% bonus while fighting there.
Map Editor Properties: In the adventure map section, the editable property is the level of leadership needed, and, in the combat map, the percentage bonus death creatures receive.

“Hope you like my ideas. Once again nice thread and don’t go bragging about those stars now

Yes, on the whole, your ideas were very good. I don’t intend to.

EmperorSly

“giant redwood is cool, but nicest would be using displacement on those archers on top of the tree and see them moved one hex to the right and then plunge to ground to death...”

That would be nice indeed. I had not thought about those possibilities. Maybe the victim loses 1,000 HP whenever they fall from the tower, with flyers not having to worry about this setback. Would you consider 1,000 HP to be a fair loss?

Thanks for the replies, people. The positive thing is, that the Altar is very active at this point in time, and I hope it continues to be that way.

____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | PP | Quote Reply | Link
Sir_Stiven
Sir_Stiven


Honorable
Legendary Hero
banned
posted November 02, 2003 01:49 PM

here is another improvement idea i like, esp. the part about ground have more influence on battles.

Just as long as it stays balanced, at heroes3 today the ground means alot too because of speed... so the 75% speed reduction as suggested on bog ground is way too much IMO for example. Speed is vital in combat..no so much because of how many squares the creatures moves but they set the order creature turns.

And to have 3-4 units faster than opponents fastest unit would be devastating since one of them takes up retaliation and then the top lvl creatures who usually is the fastest ones can lay the major spank on opponents best creature.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Dragon_Slayer
Dragon_Slayer


Honorable
Supreme Hero
toss toss toss
posted November 03, 2003 07:12 AM
Edited By: Dragon_Slayer on 3 Nov 2003

I think these new landscapes would be best suited for an expansion because lets say you don’t like the new landscape or you just want a break from it. It could be called ‘The Hydra’s Interactive Landscapes’.

About the mountain idea i do think it is a slight waste of two turns because once you climb down the mountain the fog of war comes back.

About the Dragons Lair it would be like a small cavern that you could explore to find treasure. A random dragon or cave dwelling creature would attack you every so often and the treasure obtained depends on the path taken.

Quote:
Despite the fact that I disagree with this motive, it would not work anyway. What if someone has already climbed this mountain and collected the treasure? Then there will be nothing left for the other player.

Well that just means that you have to make sure you are the first their!

Quote:
The army receives –75% movement when crossing a bog.

I also think this is a bit much considering that it will take you over 4 turns to cross a small 1 turn area. This will slow your army down to a crawl and is not good if you need to hurry back to your castle.

Quote:
There is a 5% chance that a small Fortress-type army will attack you when crossing.

This is a good idea. I think it should be applied to a few more terrains such as the forest and graveyard. Maybe also make the percentage higher.

Quote:
It would be much more laudable to have the creature interrupt on the adventure map, where it cannot change the outcome of a battle.

Yea that sounds better. Maybe air or earth elementals would best suit this terrain.

____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted November 08, 2003 09:12 AM
Edited By: ThE_HyDrA on 8 Nov 2003

Continued Thoughts

Snow: Blizzard
The storm of the snow can be a powerful one indeed. The ruthlessness of these blizzards causes numerous unfavourable effects to befall upon the unfortunate army, and their accomplices.
Adventure Map Effects: The army travelling through the blizzard loses 25% movement. However, armies with Ice Demons, or whatever other Ice-aligned creature appears in Heroes V, are not affected by the unpleasantness. The blizzard also creates an aura of blur, so, when caught in a blizzard, you are unseen by any army, unless they too are in that blizzard.
Combat Map Effects: All Ice-aligned creatures gain a 25% boost to their defense, attack, and damage dealt when in a blizzard. All other creatures that fight there lose the same percentage in the same areas. Again, as in the adventure map, creatures travelling through the blizzard have a movement penalty of 25%, and again, ice creatures are immune to this. Vision spells have no effect on units in a blizzard.
Map Editor Properties: Regarding the adventure map side of the equation, you can alter the movement penalty (but it must remain a penalty from 1% - 100%), and if it affects ice-aligned creatures. In the combat map, the editor can change the percentage bonus for Ice creatures, (remaining a boost) and how severe the movement penalty is. Lastly, you are able to modify the effects this has Ice-aligned creatures.

Sir_Stiven

It is interesting to see you post, here, Sir_Stiven. However, I thankyou for doing so, this threads needs as much feedback as possible.

“here is another improvement idea i like, esp. the part about ground have more influence on battles.”

Quite true. In Heroes IV, the terrain in battle makes fundamentally no difference to the outcome of the battle, since it doesn’t change much in battle. However, with the interactive landscapes, I envisage large undulations, not the small ones in Heroes IV, hill forts, mountains, and many other special terrains you’d expect to find in an untouched stretch of the earth. While the combat terrain in Heroes IV was better than that of Heroes III, if I walked across water, it would still appear as though I was walking on land. This needs to be rectified, and I am trying to formulate an idea that makes armies use the ground they’re on for a more intriguing combat.

“Just as long as it stays balanced, at heroes3 today the ground means alot too because of speed... so the 75% speed reduction as suggested on bog ground is way too much IMO for example.”

On the adventure map, on the other hand, terrain can play a big difference. These landscape objects are just that; objects. They are not vast stretches of terrain, nor are can the be used for terrain, you place them as you would a mountain in Heroes IV. They are localised, and can be placed strategically as an obstacle, or cumulatively, like terrain. The army can choose to walk across the bog is it wishes to, but it doesn’t have to .The bog would be placed in front of an important place, or a crossroads in the map. I myself would place it I front of an artifact that is a global target, so if anyone wishes to retrieve it, they must all cross the bog. I did not plan for these ‘interactive landscapes’ to become giant areas of land.

“Speed is vital in combat..no so much because of how many squares the creatures moves but they set the order creature turns.”

Speed is indeed vital in combat, and that is why I have left that parameter be. The one which I have affected is movement. Carrying on from the adventure map side of things, the interactive landscape would not take up the whole combat screen, but maybe a third or a half of it. Also, in the bog’s case, it would not appear as a chunk of swamp, but more as smaller pieces of a larger area.

“And to have 3-4 units faster than opponents fastest unit would be devastating since one of them takes up retaliation and then the top lvl creatures who usually is the fastest ones can lay the major spank on opponents best creature.”

The movement loss only occurs when that creature is standing on the bog, not everywhere on the combat map. As I previously stated, the bog doesn’t occupy the entire area of combat, only portions of it, so if the unit left the bog area, it would go back to normal. However, there is incentive for some creatures to go on the a landscape, since it could provide a bonus for them. I am hoping the computer would be programmed as a human would play, and leave the landscape if it had negative effects, and fight on it if it had positive ones.

Dragon_Slayer

“I think these new landscapes would be best suited for an expansion because lets say you don’t like the new landscape or you just want a break from it. It could be called ‘The Hydra’s Interactive Landscapes’.”

I disagree. I formulate this theory to include it into the crux of Heroes, and make it an integral part of the series. I am betting that many people don’t like many new things about Heroes IV, or they want a break from a new element, and want to return to Heroes III with the Heroes IV gameplay in it, minus those two things. It was an experiment on NWC’s behalf, and it might not have paid off, but they tried to make it part of the game, not so people could remove it and add it at will. I don’t see any reason why not to have this as part of the original Heroes V (other than Ubi not heeding my call), I don’t expect for it to be unbalanced, so… I’m sure you spent hours pondering up that name, but an expansion shouldn’t be required.

“About the mountain idea i do think it is a slight waste of two turns because once you climb down the mountain the fog of war comes back.”

Ah, but once you’ve seen where the specific creature or artifact is, you remember the situation it was in. You can spent minutes memorising the map form the top of the peak If you wish. Just because the FoW returns when you climb down, it doesn’t mean that you can see, it just means the land is darker and you can see armies on through it. I wouldn’t call anything that lets you reveal a whole small map a waste of two turns, would you?

“About the Dragons Lair it would be like a small cavern that you could explore to find treasure. A random dragon or cave dwelling creature would attack you every so often and the treasure obtained depends on the path taken.”

Hmmmm. I see. When I developed the idea, this isn’t exactly what I had visualised. What you describe there is more of a ‘Dragon Utopia’, which is an adventure map object, not a landscape object. The idea was to make landscape objects like mountains and trees interactive. While your idea is not lacking, it just doesn’t tie in with the theme I am trying to create here.

“Well that just means that you have to make sure you are the first their!”

But how do you know that there is one on the map? When you play the game, you don’t go searching around for a peak for some extra treasure. The peak isn’t meant to be a centre point of action. It is purposely there so you can uncover the adventure map more thoroughly and quickly. If you come across a peak, it is convenient that you scale it, but seeing as you don’t know where it would be, or if it is even on the map, you shouldn’t hunt for a peak. I don’t think the idea has merit, and the 2x radius without fog of war I think is assuredly enough to warrant the player using two turns to scale the peak.

“I also think this is a bit much considering that it will take you over 4 turns to cross a small 1 turn area. This will slow your army down to a crawl and is not good if you need to hurry back to your castle.”

It wouldn’t take more than four turns, but yes, I can see your concern. However, it would be unfair for the mapmaker to place a bog in front of your castle just so you cannot get there quickly. It would make the map unbalanced and it would turn out to be a very sub-par map. I would think that people would place objects like the bog in a global area, so everyone gets affected by it, not just one army.

“This is a good idea. I think it should be applied to a few more terrains such as the forest and graveyard. Maybe also make the percentage higher.”

Yes, I am willing to do that. I think that is a praiseworthy proposal. So, for the forest terrain, a small Preserve army will attack, and for the graveyard, a small death army would attack. A way to improve this would be to check the statistics of a map to decide how strong the army should be. So, a small map, easy difficulty rating, played on advanced, the creatures growth would be quicker. But on a large, expert map played on champion, the growth would be slower.

“Yea that sounds better. Maybe air or earth elementals would best suit this terrain.”

I would agree there. For the mirage, elementals could be used to provide a more neutral effect, since I am not sure what castle would lend itself to hiding in mirages. Maybe genies could be used, also, especially when they’re depicted in a ‘Heroes II-esque’ way.

Once again, my thanks to everybody who has posted, I hope some more will voice their opinions in this thread.

Edit: Saruman, I am asking myself that question, too. I have directed it to Valeriy, but there has been no reply as of yet.

____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | PP | Quote Reply | Link
Saruman
Saruman


Famous Hero
On academic leave
posted November 08, 2003 05:34 PM

Offtopic:

Why is a post by Celfious about spam the first post and then the thread begins?
____________
Thank god I'm an atheist.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Celfious
Celfious


Promising
Legendary Hero
Shadow visionaire
posted November 09, 2003 04:25 AM

Hydra, I read a thick portion and have to say your definately on to something., But the entirety of the package however is fragile in its making. (meaning specifics are important)

I definately think making the ground 2 levels with bridges and mountains/cliffs is a splendid idea. With the rest of the land, there is a bit of the old, green brown & blue blandness. (OC they have there blight, and inferno areas ect) All the different areas should blend atleast 3 lines between the 2 zones.

[HOMM3 error? The underground, your walking through tunnels and you can see through the dirt to other tunnles.]

BTW, the desert blur spell I'm not entrily sure of.
I can see use for it but not that extreme. 99%, if you cant "see" an enemy at 99%, then I venture to say your swimming in sand. There is wind direction too. Attacking an army upwind is smart but going into the wind is sand in your eye. Sometimes its sand monsume behavior, like a small tornado.

Mabey in HOMM7 there will be a weather system.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | PP | Quote Reply | Link
Dragon_Slayer
Dragon_Slayer


Honorable
Supreme Hero
toss toss toss
posted November 10, 2003 07:25 AM

About the Snow/blizzard terrain. On the adventure map why not have an army lose some creatures while walking through the blizzard due to them becoming frozen. Something like in H3 when you go into a whirlpool and lose some low level creatures. This would be annoying but would encourage people to find an alternate route or not go to their destination all together.

Quote:
I’m sure you spent hours pondering up that name

Yes, yes I did.

Quote:
I wouldn’t call anything that lets you reveal a whole small map a waste of two turns, would you?

Yea I see your point. I guess its not really a waste of two turns but I still think having a treasure at the top is a good idea. Maybe an inexhaustible treasure like once per player you receive a random artifact, gold or resource. You could even have something like a tree of knowledge ect.

Quote:
While your idea is not lacking, it just doesn’t tie in with the theme I am trying to create here.

Fine. I will take my idea elsewhere.

Quote:
But how do you know that there is one on the map? When you play the game, you don’t go searching around for a peak for some extra treasure.

I know that you don’t just go searching for a mountain for extra treasure. What im saying is that a good heroes player should explore the map, not just stay in their main area building their forces. If you explore the map faster than your opponents than you are rewarded. And even if someone has beaten you to the mountain and has already claimed the treasure you still uncover a large area of the map so its still not a waste of time. Also I said about it could be a beneficial structure or an inexhaustible treasure.

Quote:
However, it would be unfair for the mapmaker to place a bog in front of your castle just so you cannot get there quickly.

Not right infront of your castle. What I mean is if you are exploring and your castle is unguarded. If you are exploring to find an artifact or something and during your opponents turn you see them moving towards your castle, you immediately return to your castle. If that journey is three turns but there is a bog somewhere along the line it might take 4 or 5 turns and by then your castle may be gone.

Quote:
But on a large, expert map played on champion, the growth would be slower.

Wouldn’t the growth be faster here because it is an expert map on champion?

Well Hydra enjoy reading this post. Oh and why don’t you just delete your post Celfious?

____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Celfious
Celfious


Promising
Legendary Hero
Shadow visionaire
posted November 10, 2003 07:54 AM

I'm not knowledgeable if that deletes the thread.
____________
Why does it sound like everything from this world is from outer space?

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | PP | Quote Reply | Link
Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted November 10, 2003 07:51 PM

Quote:
I'm not knowledgeable if that deletes the thread.


Hmmm... Yes... There is a distinct risk you will delete the thread if you take away the first post.
____________
"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted November 13, 2003 08:21 AM
Edited By: ThE_HyDrA on 14 Nov 2003

Some more replies…

Volcanic: Volcano
One of Mother Nature’s most destructive weapons, the volcano has claimed the lives of many. It fierce eruptions and incessant lava flows have been obstacles for many to pass throughout the ages.
Adventure Map Effects: Occasionally, there are lava flows which can flow onto the path of travel, or not, (if they are in a remote area). This stops the army from crossing, but when it dries (1 week or so) it is again possible to cross. They flow might not take up the whole path, dependant on how far off the volcano is, and how big you set the flow as. It is 5 squares long and 1 square wide as standard.
Combat Map Effects: There is a 5% chance that a volcanic eruption will occur during combat, which has an effect that is 50% of the strength of Armageddon, but it has the same effects (so it affects both sides). It can occur at any time during combat, but it cannot take place twice.
Map Editor Properties: In terms of the adventure map’s editable properties, one can set the area of the flow, how long it takes to dry, when flows occur and how often. For combat, you can alter the percentage, but to no more than 25%, the strength of the eruption (no more than 99%), and when what turn it takes place during combat.

Celfious

“Hydra, I read a thick portion and have to say your definately on to something.”

Thankyou, Celfious. I rarely have good ideas, but I must say that this is one of the best ideas I have come across. Some of my others aren’t so good, but I am hoping that this will change the fairly static landscape of Heroes IV into something more interactive and meaningful towards the outcome of a particular scenario, or campaign.

“But the entirety of the package however is fragile in its making. (meaning specifics are important)”

Indeed they are, as in with any strategy game. One must be careful not to unbalance any of the fundamental elements of the game. I have written the standard defaults for the landscapes for what I deem to be equal. I have allowed the map editor to change the values so much to either:
1. Have fun experimenting with them
2. In order to give another side the advantage in a difficult scenario campaign.
By doing this, it gives them the freedom to make their own choices about balancing, since mine might not always be the best, or what they would like to have.

“I definately think making the ground 2 levels with bridges and mountains/cliffs is a splendid idea.”

While I didn’t plan to create a whole new ‘panorama level’, it did envisage to have a mountain range with peaks and bridges connected to them, with warrens and other tunnels underneath to create that two-tiered effect. I tried to emulate the real world as faithfully as I could, because it can be so diverse, and implemented into the series would be a delight, as well as making the game much more interesting.

“With the rest of the land, there is a bit of the old, green brown & blue blandness. (OC they have there blight, and inferno areas ect)”

True. This is a way of making the landscape element of the Heroes Series more interactive, and less static and bland as you say. Terrain cannot be merely a place to travel.

“All the different areas should blend atleast 3 lines between the 2 zones.”

I have incorporated miscellaneous interactive landscape objects such as the lake, the peak, etc, but it is not impossible to place purpose-built interactive landscape objects such as the volcano onto sand. What I plan is to have the bottom half of the volcano textured as sand, or snow to be placed on snow, whatever the appropriate terrain is. Some objects do have limits, though, such as the bog, it cannot be placed on snow, sand, dirt, but can be placed on volcanic, grass, subterranean.

“[HOMM3 error? The underground, your walking through tunnels and you can see through the dirt to other tunnles.]”

I don’t think so, since your hero would map his surroundings, so he would be able to see anything within radius, unless it is around a corner, which is illogical. However, it would be very difficult to recreate human sight elements in the Heroes Series.

“I can see use for it but not that extreme. 99%, if you cant "see" an enemy at 99%, then I venture to say your swimming in sand.”

I’m not sure if you know what I mean here. My message is that the blur spell would work at 99% effectiveness or 1 percent. When creatures enter the mirage, the blur spell effect is automatically instilled in the creature, so it would be harder for the archers. So, if it went down to 99%, it would be 1 % weaker. The blur spell effect does not apply to hand to hand combat, only for ranged attacks.

“Attacking an army upwind is smart but going into the wind is sand in your eye.”

To recreate wind direction in a game in this fashion would be near impossible, but maybe it could be done. Regardless, if a ranged attacker is looking into a mirage from 50m away, it would be very difficult to see, but if the creature is in the mirage too, it wouldn’t be so hard to see.

“Mabey in HOMM7 there will be a weather system.”

I’m not a big activist on this theory, but I think it could work out well. Effects such as rain and lightning would be interesting. Again, it could add another element of our world into Heroes. Why Heroes VII, though, why not Heroes VI?

Dragon_Slayer

“About the Snow/blizzard terrain. On the adventure map why not have an army lose some creatures while walking through the blizzard due to them becoming frozen. Something like in H3 when you go into a whirlpool and lose some low level creatures.”

I think that would be too much of a disadvantage, and would dissuade the army from even going to that area. One goal of having these landscapes is to encourage people to visit them, not to make them immensely unbeneficial. While the idea is logical, I think it would be less punishing if the hero lost a potion or something while travelling through the blizzard. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think you lose creatures when you go through the whirlpool. (I play HIII the least, so I very well could be)

“This would be annoying but would encourage people to find an alternate route or not go to their destination all together.”

But possibly, that is their only way through, and then it would be forcing the army to lose creatures every time they needed to travel through, and it could take its toll. Again, as I stated before, I want these interactive landscapes to be used, not neglected for their unfavourable effects on the army.

“Maybe an inexhaustible treasure like once per player you receive a random artifact, gold or resource. You could even have something like a tree of knowledge ect.”

Being granted an artifact or getting to a tree of knowledge just for taking two turns is rather lenient. You seeming to pride yourself on your logical ways, have appeared to contradicted yourself if this case. Why would there be:
1. A treasure at the top of a peak?
2. Why would it be inexhaustible? That would rather much suit a mine, but that would create ceaseless mine wars, and constant travelling up and down the peak.

“Fine. I will take my idea elsewhere.”

It is a good idea, maybe you should make a thread about your own adventure map objects. Such as proposing some more additions to the adventure map and being specific about what you plan to achieve.

“What im saying is that a good heroes player should explore the map, not just stay in their main area building their forces. If you explore the map faster than your opponents than you are rewarded.”

You make a good argument, however, it would be extremely difficult to calculate a central median for the peak to be placed. If you do place it in the middle on every map, it would compromise the layout of the map. Alternately, if you place a one peak in close vicinity to every castle, the player may lose sight of the objective, and pursue the treasure instead of the land you uncover. I believe that the resource or bonus you could receive is extraneous. It is only two turns, and climbing an vertical peak could take many, many days. I think it is rather short, and the reward is great – a 2x view of the adventure map without Fog of War. I would certainly use my two turns to see that.

“And even if someone has beaten you to the mountain and has already claimed the treasure you still uncover a large area of the map so its still not a waste of time.”

So, you admit that it is not a waste of time. On the previous topic, why would climbing a peak that (could be) positioned right next to your castle a good indication of exploring the adventure map? Exploring the adventure map quickly is a strategy, not an obligation. It may not be possible for someone to do so, and therefore would be forced in their area until they amass significant forces. Some players (like myself) are more defense.

“What I mean is if you are exploring and your castle is unguarded. If you are exploring to find an artifact or something and during your opponents turn you see them moving towards your castle, you immediately return to your castle. If that journey is three turns but there is a bog somewhere along the line it might take 4 or 5 turns and by then your castle may be gone.”

I see. The how would the opponent by-pass this bog? If the opponent were heading toward your castle they would have either
1. Cross the bog themselves if it is the only path
2. Go an alternate route (and in that case, you could, too).
Bogs aren’t meant to act as barriers. If the map maker places it in the middle of a map, you go around it, or you wouldn’t have taken the ‘bog’ route in the first place. The bog isn’t a huge mass, it is a fairly medium sized one, and in most maps, you could go around them. If form some reason, you do become ‘bogged down’, if you’ll pardon the pun, then you must realise that the enemy must also cross the bog, and would not be able to keep the castle safe.
However, this tension that is created is indeed a proposed by-product of the bog’s existence. It is meant to make maps harder and more interesting. Placement is everything.

“Wouldn’t the growth be faster here because it is an expert map on champion?”

It would be quicker for the creatures on the adventure map, but seeing as it is already much more difficult, the player wouldn’t have such a strong army, so it would be unfair. It is a known fact that your army grows more slowly on champion for the fact that you cannot beat the creatures in front of the mines quickly enough. You have to get a good-sized force, which takes time.

Note to Dragon_Slayer, Celfious, and Djive: I have spoken to Valeriy, and he has verified that, if you delete the top post, Celfious, it WILL delete the thread. The reasoning for this is that Heroes Community scripting recognises the first post in a thread as being the post with thread properties.

____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | PP | Quote Reply | Link
Dragon_Slayer
Dragon_Slayer


Honorable
Supreme Hero
toss toss toss
posted November 14, 2003 07:31 AM bonus applied.
Edited By: Dragon_Slayer on 14 Nov 2003

Hey Hydra nice to see your still making more terrains.

Quote:
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think you lose creatures when you go through the whirlpool.

I guess i will be correcting you then Unfortunatly you do lose some creatures when going through a whirlpool.

Quote:
Why would there be:
1. A treasure at the top of a peak?
2. Why would it be inexhaustible? That would rather much suit a mine, but that would create ceaseless mine wars, and constant travelling up and down the peak.

Why woulodnt there be a treasure at the top of a peak? It could be the items of a person who scaled the mountain and unfortunently never came down. Not exactly inexhaustable, more like a once per player thing like a tree of knowlage or fountain of fortune or even the Leprechaun guy who gives you gems.

Quote:
If you do place it in the middle on every map, it would compromise the layout of the map.

What exactly do you mean by compromise the layout of the map? If you mean that if you place it closer to one persons castle you are giving them an advantage then you are slightly wrong. Yes you are indeed giving them an advantage but the map maker would obviously recognise this and balance this out by putting other beneficial things near the other players castles that the person with the mountaion does not have. You could also put some creatures in front of the mountain to make it more difficult.

Quote:
why would climbing a peak that (could be) positioned right next to your castle a good indication of exploring the adventure map?

It seems you just contradicted yourself The Hydra! You were arguing earlier that a mountain must be put in the center of a map to avoid unbalancing the map, but here you say it could very well be put right next to a players castle!

Quote:
Exploring the adventure map quickly is a strategy, not an obligation. It may not be possible for someone to do so, and therefore would be forced in their area until they amass significant forces.

On most maps even when playing on champion, not every pathway is blocked. You could easily buy another hero, give him a small number of creatures and go exploring with him. Not every creature on the adventure map that is blocking a pathway is going to be extreamly strong so it shouldn't be too hard to explore a fair bit of the map before you can go no further.

Quote:
The how would the opponent by-pass this bog? If the opponent were heading toward your castle they would have either
1. Cross the bog themselves if it is the only path
2. Go an alternate route (and in that case, you could, too).

Not necessarily. Lets say that your castle is at the end of a long path, surrounded by trees so the only way to get to the castle is to go down the path. If you travel up that path there is a fork in the path. To the left is a nice artifact behind a bog. To the right is your opponents castle. Using this thoery your opponent can reach your castle without crossing the bog and you cannot take the path they are taking. But i see your point about making the map more challenging. I guess this would just force people to leave a reasonable army in your castle.

Oh and The Hydra must you continue to argue with me about the treasure on the mountain thing? You know i'm right so just agree with me!
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted November 19, 2003 10:21 AM

More Interactive Landscapes

Cliff: All Terrains
Worn away by the wind, rain, sleet, snow, and by the unrelenting tides of the seas, the cliff is a natural, vertical piece of rock. It is a favourable nesting spot for birds, and can prove troublesome for heroes to scale.
Adventure Map Effects: The cliff prevents all action from being taken past the point. It acts as a natural barrier. The size (Height and length) of the cliff are set by the editor. However, within these cliffs lie caves. In caves, you are safe from the opponent, unless they follow you in. So if another army walks directly past the cave, but does not go in, the army will not see you. It is possible to place creatures in the cave.
Combat Effects: The cliff, in combat, does also act as a barrier, but it isn’t finite. It is possible to penetrate it. The way to do this is by climbing into the cliff through a cave entrance, and climbing to the top, taking one full turn to do this. When fighting at the top of the cliff, rangers receive a bonus, as in tower turrets. However, unlike in Heroes IV turrets, creatures below the cliff cannot attack up. The only way to dismount them is to climb up yourself.
Map Editor Properties: Relating to the adventure map, you can set the length and height of the cliff. You can also alter the number of caves per square. In combat, it is possible to edit the number of cave entrances and exits, the bonus of the ranged attacker, and the deficit another ranged attack receives for attacking the one situated on the cliff.

Dragon_Slayer

I am pleasing this enthralling discussion has continued thus far.

“Hey Hydra nice to see your still making more terrains.”

Yes, I will continue to do so until I run out of ideas for them. However, I won’t be subjected to landscape objects, which cannot have much interaction. Maybe you’d like to suggest some terrains?

“I guess i will be correcting you then Unfortunatly you do lose some creatures when going through a whirlpool.”

As I said, I am not nearly as much experienced with Heroes III as Heroes II or IV. Now that you do mention it, I do remember losing some creatures in a whirlpool in Heroes III. For the moment I will believe what you say until I play Heroes III again. Do you know the reasoning behind losing creatures in a whirlpool?

“Why woulodnt there be a treasure at the top of a peak? It could be the items of a person who scaled the mountain and unfortunently never came down.”

I somehow find it hard to believe that a hiker would bring a hoard of treasure with him on a death-defying trek into a 5,000-metre mountain. If I were that hiker, I would take only the minimum requirements, not treasure.

“Not exactly inexhaustable, more like a once per player thing like a tree of knowlage or fountain of fortune or even the Leprechaun guy who gives you gems.”

While the suggestions illogical for two reasons:
1. Trees don’t grow behind a certain height for the contents of the air does not suffice
2. A Leprechaun doesn’t live on top of mountains
I believe the most relevant matter at hand here is that fact that two trips is certainly worth such a great view, and that it would be quite commonsense to require an extra turn to scale a steep cliff. Also, don’t forget that it does only take one turn going down. As a side note, the leprechaun gives you gems on a weekly basis, so in order for you to reap the rewards, you would have to continuously expend three turns.
Also, doesn’t the boundlessness of these resources oppose your previous motive of a reward for clearing the adventure map? Since it is inexhaustible, you could get the gems any time you want, or gain knowledge any time, too.

“What exactly do you mean by compromise the layout of the map?”

What I meant to convey by this statement is if you place a peak (which is rather large in size) in the middle of the map, then it may result in other objects being placed in inferior places. For instance, another object may be placed in the middle, or it may not be commonsense to put a peak in the middle.

“If you mean that if you place it closer to one persons castle you are giving them an advantage then you are slightly wrong.”

No, I don’t mean that. I agree that this would be a slightly inane thing to do. Of course, a good mapmaker would indeed try to create more equilibrium by compensating for this beneficial reward.

“It seems you just contradicted yourself The Hydra! You were arguing earlier that a mountain must be put in the center of a map to avoid unbalancing the map”

No, I don’t believe I said that. I think you may assume too much. I was stating that it would generally have adverse effects to the layout of the map if the peak were to be placed in the middle because of its sheer size. I didn’t say it must be placed in the centre of the map, on the contrary, I said that it shouldn’t. Additionally, I did in fact say could be in brackets, which is actually what you quoted. It could be placed next to a player’s castle, the boundaries are limitless, it is up to the map maker’s discretion. I don’t tell them what and what not to do.

“On most maps even when playing on champion, not every pathway is blocked.”

You would be surprised, Dragon_Slayer. I can fondly remember a certain Winds of War map, I believe it was ‘Head of the Dragon’, (what a coincidence) where it was imperative to break free of the land around you. There were harpies guarding the portal to the mainland, and it was very difficult to beat them early on in the game. In this case, there was no alternate method. I’m afraid the ‘buy a hero, give him some creatures, and let him explore doesn’t work with this map, and with many others. (Land of Our Forefathers is another good example). I just don’t adventure map discovery is a justifiable way to gain gold.

“Lets say that your castle is at the end of a long path, surrounded by trees so the only way to get to the castle is to go down the path. If you travel up that path there is a fork in the path. To the left is a nice artifact behind a bog.”

You are correct in that case. However, you outlined exactly what the bog is meant to do! That is one of the reasons I created the bog as an interactive landscape object. Bogs were meant to slow people down, and make things an inconvenience. I intended the bogs to protect items like artifact, and make the hero choose between his castle, or his treasure. However, an easy way to avoid this is to merely send a creature to collect it and bring it back, (if it isn’t guarded, of course.)

“Oh and The Hydra must you continue to argue with me about the treasure on the mountain thing? You know i'm right so just agree with me!

Yes, I am a persistent creature.

I have another interactive landscape object to put forth, it is correlated with the peaks and mountains.

Bridge: All Terrains
The bridge is an ancient sacred site for one of the most barbarous Heroes Creatures, the troll. Bridges have been their saviour, and they enjoy hiding under them, which is commonly known.
Adventure Map Effect: The bridges have many uses, a few are:
+> Bridging a gap between two cliffs
+> Reaching a spot which can only be reached through a bridge
+> Connecting Peaks and mountains to form a ‘summital’ level.
Trolls (or armies with trolls in them) receive a movement bonus of 25% when cross under or over a bridge.
Combat Map Effect: Trolls receive a 25% bonus of all statistics (which aren’t 0, such a shots) when fighting against others on a bridge.
Map Editor Properties: For the adventure map, you can alter the length of the bridge, the type of bridge (and consequently the width) and what percentage movement bonus the trolls receive. Concerning the combat map, you can change what areas the trolls receive bonuses in, and how much they receive.

Dragon_Slayer, I thank you in your persistence in this topic, I hope it can continue.

____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | PP | Quote Reply | Link
Dragon_Slayer
Dragon_Slayer


Honorable
Supreme Hero
toss toss toss
posted November 19, 2003 12:35 PM

Combat affects for the cliff:
To me the Behmoths (thats not how you spell it but anyway...) seem like a cave dwelling creature also. They remind me of giant bears, and we hae all seen the cartoonswhere the people go to hide in a cave only to find it is inhabited by a bear. I believe that Behmoths should recieve some sort of bonus when fighting on a cliff or in a cave. Also the cliff seems to resemble a sanctuary to me. Being able to hide in it within a turn seems a bit to easy.

Quote:
Do you know the reasoning behind losing creatures in a whirlpool?

Well it seems fairly obvious to me. If you jump in a whirlpool you get hurt, simple. Do you really think that if you were to steer your boat straight into a whirlpool their wouldnt be any damage?

Quote:
While the suggestions illogical for two reasons:
1. Trees don’t grow behind a certain height for the contents of the air does not suffice
2. A Leprechaun doesn’t live on top of mountains

Two words for you Hydra, FANTASY GAME. The HOMM series is a fantasy based game and not everything works according to how it would in real life. In real life getting struck by lightning would kill you instantly but in heroes IV getting your hero struck by lighting would probably not kill it. In a fantasy game a leprechaun can live wherever he wants and a tree can grow wherevere it wants. Besides the tree of knowlage is very old and wise and could survive ontop of a mountain.

Quote:
Since it is inexhaustible, you could get the gems any time you want, or gain knowledge any time, too.

Noooo, those sorts of things would not be inexhaustable. Ok, scratch the inexhaustable idea and replace it with once per hero.

Quote:
or it may not be commonsense to put a peak in the middle.

Why would it not be commonsense to put the peak in the middle of a map? How else could you make the map even besides putting more peaks or putting alot more artifacts near other players?

Quote:
‘Head of the Dragon’, (what a coincidence)

Oh real funny smart guy. Dragons are the best, and most powerful. Thats why everyone trys to slay a dragon to prove their courage. But lets not get into another Dragon vs Hydra arguement.

Quote:
However, an easy way to avoid this is to merely send a creature to collect it and bring it back, (if it isn’t guarded, of course.)

Thats if in Heroes V creatures are allowed to move without a hero.

Quote:
Yes, I am an annoying creature.

Yes. Yes you are

Quote:
Dragon_Slayer, I thank you in your persistence in this topic, I hope it can continue.

Eh, i'll see what i can do.
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
sallow
sallow

Tavern Dweller
posted November 19, 2003 02:55 PM

Hey I think those ideas are very very good ones.  Unfortunately part of the beauty of the Heroes series is it's simplicity and I feel a lot of that would be lost with these additions.  Wonderful ideas though...

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted November 23, 2003 01:50 AM

Interactive Landscape - Continued

Water: Shipwreck
A cursed area which tells the tales of captains and sailors caught at sea. Shipwrecks are a favourite dwelling for ghosts, who channel their words to the dead here. It instill fear in those who near the wreckage.
Adventure Map Effects: Heroes without advanced leadership cannot go nearer than 2 radius squares to the shipwreck. This is because they aren't brave enough. Heroes with advanced leadership are prompted into a battle with the ghosts who dwell there. They can choose to turn their offer down. (This can also occur when the army is in a boat)Combat Map Effects: On the combat map, there would be everything you would expect in a shipwreck. For example, there are different heights and levels, and heroes and human-based creatures can climb the rigging to the crows nest to gain 50% ranged attack advantage. Creatures must climb the rigging to topple the unit (or use displacement).
Map Editor Properties: You cannot alter the radius that the shipwreck induces fear upon, but you can choose how many ghosts there are in the shipwreck, and how much the numbers escalate by per week. In the combat map, one can change the percentage increase for the units on the crows nest, and the percentage decrease for those attacking them from below.  

Dragon_Slayer

"Combat Effects for the Cliff:
To me the Behmoths (thats not how you spell it but anyway...) seem like a cave dwelling creature also. (...) I believe the Behmoths should recieve some bonus when fighting on a cliff or in a cave."

No, actually Behemoths (you need an extra 'e') dwell in 'crags' while this could be arguable noticed as a sort of mountain or cliff, I have already made the crag an interactive landscape object, so it would be missing the point if I gave them a bonus in the cave. However, you are right that Behemoths should have a bonus, but a bonus in the crag instead, it is in my initial post, I may edit it and give them a bonus.

"Also the cliff seems to resemble a sanctuary to me. Being able to hide in it within a turn seems a bit too easy."

I don't see a problem here. It takes one turn. That should be enough to secure your safety within the cave. While the sanctuary costs gold, it isn't very much, so I think 1 turn is justified. Also, you aren't guaranteed of a safe passage, since another army might have the same idea and enter the same cave. (Just so you know, the sword icon won't show up when you enter a cave with an army already in there).

"Well it seems fairly obvious to me. If you jump into a whirlpool, you get hurt, simple."

I realise that there would be some damage, but maybe instead of losing creatures, you would lose artifacts? It is irrelevant anyway.

"Two words for you, Hydra, FANTASY GAME. The HOMM series is a fantasy based game and not everything words according to how it would in real life."

I see your point. However, if I played a game of Heroes V, and I found a Leprechaun living ontop of a mountain, I would be surprised and question the motives of the designer. Everyone knows leprechauns live in 'magical gardens' in the woods, not atop a mountain. Also, why wouldn't a tree of knowledge grow in the woods with the rest of the trees? While I don't deem it as impossible, I would try an avoid placing objects in obscene places, it jepoardises the seriousness of the occassion. I would be rather annoyed if every mountain you placed had a tree on top of it.

"Why wouldn't it be commonsense to put the peak in the middle of a map? How else could you make the map even besides putting more peaks or putting a lot more artifacts near the players?"

Let me rephrase that. It wouldn't be commonsense to put the peak in the middle of a small map. This was what I was meant to convey. In a large, medium, or extra-large map it shouldn't be a problem. Because of the peaks immense size, it could take up too much room in the middle of the map (Where most of exploring and mine wars take place) and might hinder the action there.

"Oh real funny smart guy. Dragons are the best and most powerful."

In Heroes IV, the Megadragon is. However, in Heroes III, the Archangel was the omnipotent. I'm not trying to belittle the achievements of Dragons and their race, this is the map that NWC made. If you have a problem with it, take it up with the mapmaker.

"Thats if in Heroes V creatures are allowed to move without a hero"

Yes, that is true, and I am greatly hoping they are, that is why I used them as an example. That and in the latest Heroes game they were able to.

"I am an annoying creature

Yes, yes you are."

Please don't edit quotes. It makes your opinions less meaningful, and demotes your sense of trustworthiness. Maybe my persistence is starting to affect your judgement?

"Eh, I'll see what I can do"

I must thank you, since you are really the one who brought this thread to life.

Sallow

"Hey I think those ideas are very very good ones. Unfortunately part of the beauty of the Heroes series is it's simplicity and I feel a lot would be lost with these additions. Wonderful ideas though..."

Thankyou, Sallow. It is possible that all of the ideas that have been implemented looked complicated on paper. The scripting elements of Heroes IV are far from simple, in fact they are some of the most convoluted parts of a game I have seen. I am sure that interactive landscape objects are less complicated than that. Heroes I and II were very simple in their making, but Heroes III and IV took it a few steps further. If the upcoming game were Heroes III, I would agree with you and say that this idea is overly intricate for such a game. But now since Heroes IV was quite diverse, I am inclined to say that these ideas would assimilate. Interactive Landscapes aren't meant to monopolise the landscape elements of the game. Far from it. I intend to use them rather sparinlgly, maybe 2-3 in a small map if they were to be implemented. Thanks for your input, Sallow.

It is a very exciting time in the community, and I encourage everyone to concoct some ideas so that they may have a chance in appearing in Heroes V.
____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | PP | Quote Reply | Link
Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted November 23, 2003 01:50 PM

Applied a few bonuses to this topic.

When it comes to all the observation platforms, I'd say the ones that offer some shelter should also conceal the Garrison. That is, unless the player has some advanced spell or very high scouting ability, then they could be in for a surprise when entering the Peak and the other player's troops pop up.

The first player to enter the site would as mentioned also likely face a random Garrison which might join player or fight the player.

When it comes to Garrisons, I think being able to hire a Captain to Command the Garrison troops might be a good idea. Few players would want a Hero placed in such a place, but a Captain costing some Gold would be affordable.

Lookouts, Watch Towers and Observation Towers should be difficult to take and the two latter should offer walled defences.

When it comes to the encounters I feel this should be randomized from a number of encounters. The player should have an option to set the difficulty of the encounters which will decide the nature of the encounter. (Good intelligence - Scouting or Thieves Guild - should allow the player to view the strength of the site.)

Not all encounters need to be bad, some encounters may offer Heroes an additional skill or to gain some XP.

Each site will have a limited number of Encounters. Once you resolve one encounter, you will have to wait a week before there is a chance for another. Recurring encounters should also be able to be turned off, which would be the more common setting. Recurring encounters works well for Caves, Valleys, Graveyards, Ruins or similar. If on the other hand there is a Garrison in place then no random encounters will occurr.

When travelling through areas, creatures should have abilities to make them travel faster in certain areas and slower in others. At times, a creature will not be able to traverse an area at all if they don't have the appropriate skill. Skills would be like: Mountaineering, Forestry, Swimming and so on.

If you have a Mirage on the adventure map. (Or you could have a Fog or Mist instead). Then I think it should hide all creatures in the spot and make them blurred. I don't see why you want to restrict this to just a few creatures.

The Bog should risk poison any creature in it, which would simply either reduce their stats or kill a % of the creature in the stack. "Swampdwellers" and some others should be immune to this effect. Flyers should probable be exempted from all penalties since they can fly over the dangerous area. (Would only receive combat penalties if they enter a fight, but no penalties on the Map.)

For the Bogs in combat some of the hexes should have sinkholes or quicksand or other adversive effects. Native creatures will see and avoid them, while non-native will not.

Again, for the Bog I'd prefer a strength level to set the strength of encounters you are likely to face rather than a lot of parameters.

The Blizzard is a weather effect. If introduced it should be placed over a random area with snow and last for say 1-3 turns. I don't think we should have "permanent" Blizzards. Blizzards should also ground flyers, as well as slowing down combat movement. Why wouldn't Vision have effect? The effect is magical it can penetrate a blizzard.

A bog or a cave I'd say should take up the full area of Combat. A Redwood Tree or a Watch Tower should not.

When you say it would take up a part of the combat area are you then assuming a scrollable combat screen or a static one. Getting these large interactive objects to fit in a static screen would be very tricky.

A Bog or a Cave I think should be able to take up several squares on the adventure Map depending on size, and if does then it swhould also be able to cover the full combat screen.

If you have bonuses on the hazardous area, then how do you handle combats where a weaker protected unit enters the area and another strong melee creature certainly doesn't want to enter the area? Then picture what the AI would do if it was the weaker unit and stronger unit, and then what player would do in those two cases. Looks highly exploitable. Part of the problem as I see it is that there is no "Draw" option for combats.

I actually agree with Dragon Slayer on the expansion issue. This type of content is very suitable for expansions, and placing just a couple of them in the standard game.

You lose creatures for Siren's in H3 (but gain in XP). You lose creatures in Whirlpools in H2, H3, and H4 (haven't you played Chaos Campaign i Stanmdard H4?). There is an artifact to negate losses in H3.

If you fight creatures to gain access to a Tower, then it's not unreasonable that said creatures have a Treasure. Also, it's quite possible that the treasure was overlooked the first time around. The hiker in Dragon Slayer's example might very weel be seeking to hide treasure in a hard to reach place, and be killed before doing so. I'd say "digging" for treasure is perhaps better than finding it on a dead hiker.

Hmmm... correct me if I'm wrong HyDrA, but if the peak (and surrounding mountains) takes a large chunk of the adventure map, then why should the peak only take up a fraction of the combat map?

For the Trolls. Should they require a fee for passage or attack? Normally, the army wanting to pass by would just retreat otherwise and Troll would remain empty-handed.


____________
"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Jump To: « Prev Thread . . . Next Thread » This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
Post New Poll    Post New Topic    Post New Reply

Page compiled in 0.1817 seconds